Another request to balance chaff units

[Garbarrage]

Fair enough... Let's try and make some sense out of it

I am quite honestly more than happy to be "educated" if I'm wrong etc.

To clarify, I think there's a mis-balance, which means rather than a certain balance, chaff counter acting Gimbals and Turrets, such that the two have a logical balance between them, the current system is too infavour of against gimbals/turrets... as demonstrated by:-
1) The defacto weapons/outfitting choices most PvP folks end up with.
2) The fact that NPCs do not spam chaff akin to CMDRs because it would cause an outcry across a huge number of Pve orientated players. ie: Can you imagine if CMDRs lost lock with their gimbals and turrets for 30-60s at times?

OK... I will try, but I don't see what that as to do with the point(s) so far.

Very possibly, but does that mean all is perfectly balanced? If so why such different outfitting between PvP and PvE? Why are NPCs not permitted to chaff spam?

Now that sounds like a knee-jerk comment I'm afraid with no reason at all. Let's suggest the adjustment was to reduce chaff duration by 0.1 seconds? Would you switch then? How can you make such a concrete statement without knowing what the proposal is you're making it for?

If a proposal is too harsh on chaff, then undoubtedly you'd be right. If it it wasn't enough (as per my silly 0.1 seconds suggestion), things would remain much as is. But how about if we find somewhere towards the middle? Don't thing get interesting somewhere around there maybe?

That's a fair point. I suspect NPCs are made to be a "reasonable challenge" (only)...


I've not even fired a laser in 1.5/2.0 so I can't comment I'm afraid. How much they've changed combat on these fronts and how that affects the matter at hand (chaff) is obviously interesting. ie: If it's move the goal posts then that clearly affects this discussion.


But ultimately, do you not at least agree the relationship between chaff, gimbals and turrets is an insanely hard thing to balance? And I do wonder if that's because:-
a) Chaff is (currently) so effective.
b) You can daisy chain uses to make is constantly effective.

Do you not have any ideas how to make the effect less concrete so the two can exist in a somewhat more balanced fashion? eg: Sooden's suggestion that chaff isn't simply 100% effective, it's more vague and dependent upon things like distance - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=203446&page=9&p=3227651#post3227651

Ultimately I think this comes down to trying to balance two very different weapon targeting system. Gimbal obviously has an insane advantage over fixed, and turrets too. I just think the current "on/off" chaff mechanic, combined with being able to turn it on for long periods isn't a good solution to the problem. I don't pretend to know what an idea solution is, but where the game is at the moment just doesn't feel right IMHO. I feel something can be adjusted to blur the lines a little... and in doing so PvP outfitting may become all the more varied, which surely isn't a bad thing? And even more importantly, choice is less forced, and more by what suits you.

They're not "insanely hard to balance". They are balanced... perfectly in fact. You shoot me with gimbals, you basically can't miss. So I use chaff. You unlock and now we both have fixed weapons. Mine do more damage, but you have more hp. Now its simply a case of who is the more effective pilot, and better shot.

Until I run out of chaff, and then the advantage is all yours....

If we both have gimballed, even the limited variety that you mention, it's basically forcing players who like a certain playstyle to use your more forgiving "training wheel" version.

Chaff isn't "so effective". It's only effective against pilots who are so reliant on gimbals that they won't even attempt to shoot a player who is chaffing.

 

[NeilF]

They're not "insanely hard to balance". They are balanced... perfectly in fact. You shoot me with gimbals, you basically can't miss. So I use chaff. You unlock and now we both have fixed weapons. Mine do more damage, but you have more hp. Now its simply a case of who is the more effective pilot, and better shot.

Until I run out of chaff, and then the advantage is all yours....

Point well made...

Let's not forget in your example I also lose lock (information) too - ps: How would you feel about an option to toggle gimbals between fixed/gimballed, rather than unlocking/locking?


OK... I'm also interested on your thoughts of chaff vs turrets?

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

Personally I think that chaff should have a lesser effect the closer reticle is to being centered on the target, with gimbals able to be used identically to fixed weapons when the reticle is perfectly centered. This would reward skill and increase the utility of gimbals without diminishing the effectiveness of chaff against opponents who are just bad at aiming.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

OK... I'm also interested on your thoughts of chaff vs turrets?

Turret players are traders... they don't count. =)

 

[Riverside]

You have no right to make demands like this to stall a discussion. It is unproductive and is bordering on bullying.

You are right of course, I was unnecessarily terse.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Personally I think that chaff should have a lesser effect the closer reticle is to being centered on the target, with gimbals able to be used identically to fixed weapons when the reticle is perfectly centered. This would reward skill and increase the utility of gimbals without diminishing the effectiveness of chaff against opponents who are just bad at aiming.

I quite like this idea, it would address my concerns without significantly altering gameplay for either.

I agree with a few others here that the gimballing effect could be reduced significantly too, eg to within the targeting circle.

 

[NeilF]

I agree with a few others here that the gimballing effect could be reduced significantly too, eg to within the targeting circle.

Reduce down the size of the firing arc?

 

[Riverside]

Reduce down the size of the firing arc?

Yes. I'm not a good enough shot to be comfortable with a 100% fixed loadout, but I think I'd be good enough to keep my target within a smaller area than the current gimballed weapons allow.

I guess this is similar to your suggestion of combining fixed & gimballed into a single weapon. Reward the increased skill requirement while still allowing somewhat for the reduced motor skills of my more 'mature' abilities

Still think my original idea would be the most logical approach though, make the chaff less effective at masking a hot ship.

 

[Starender]

Hi Neilf

Why not just create a pole with theses choices:
- i think chaffs should be nerfed
- i think chaffs are balanced

we'll see in a few days what people think about it and be done with it

 

[NeilF]

Hi Neilf

Why not just create a pole with theses choices:
- i think chaffs should be nerfed
- i think chaffs are balanced

we'll see in a few days what people think about it and be done with it

The problem of course with a black and white choice, is the greys inbetween... ie: If you look at the last half a dozen suggestions about the problem of the relationship between chaff, gimbals and turrets, none of them have endorsed my suggestion, and instead suggested more subtle changes. eg: Making chaff less/more effective depending on distance, or if you directly target the enemy with gimbals they can still hit etc - Which TBH, sound somewhat better than what I was proposing!


So for me, there is a balancing problem, but maybe it's not as bad as I originally conceived - I've been talked around if you will. However, I still think a minor change somewhere (as suggested above) might be enough to take the rough edges of the relatioship between chaff and gimbals/turrets. A none-stop chaff defense shield just feels wrong. If it had another variable aspect to it, that might be the answer...

 

[Kyokushin]

Chaff works good now, and in my opinion there should be shorter delay betwen single chaff reload, but it can work as it work now for me.

In a case of chaff nerfing, the fixed weapons will be useless and we will go to skillless console autoaim gamestyle.

 

[NeilF]

Chaff works good now, and in my opinion there should be shorter delay betwen single chaff reload, but it can work as it work now for me.

In a case of chaff nerfing, the fixed weapons will be useless and we will go to skillless console autoaim gamestyle.

Chaff does work fine...

The problem is its balance/relationship with gimbals and turrets. As discussed in this thread, some people think being able to cast a non-stop anti-gimbal/turret shield for minute(s) on end is a poor mechanic. And as if to demonstrate this - as we've seen in the past with other poor mechanics such as SCB spamming and Power Plant sniping - NPCs are not allowed to use it.

I was all for putting in a delay between chaffs, but I think other folks have raised better alternatives such as instead of making chaff an on/off effect, instead make it more/less effective depending on distance/time etc. I think that would be a good compromise.

I also think a dedicated bind (hold or toggle) to make gimbals and turrets fire forward, rather than having to unlock would be a nice option too.

 

[Kyokushin]

People with gimballs always can untarget and shoot as fix or get closer when gimballs will hit. People with chaff need to use two or three to have a possibility to spam, so they have worse shields, because they need to get more chaff modules instead of shield boosters or heatsink. 20% of shields is hell a lot.

There is only one feature what could be added for gimballs - a possibility to shoot 'as fixed' without untargetting, in the similar way as it have been done in a turret case - you can choose fire mode on right panel.
Shooting with autoaim is MUCH easier and do not require skill and attention like firing frome fixed. This giving huge andvantage, thats why it require strong countermasure. If chaff will be nerfed then fixed weapons will be dead. There will be no reason to use them at all.
And for PvE gimballs/turrets works very efficient at now, and in PvP players should use skill, not autoaim, so everyone have own piece of cake now.

Balance is fine for me. You have something instead of something.

No change needed.

 

[NeilF]

People with gimballs always can untarget and shoot as fix or get closer when gimballs will hit.

True... But they also then lose all target information too.

People with chaff need to use two or three to have a possibility to spam, so they have worse shields, because they need to get more chaff modules instead of shield boosters or heatsink. 20% of shields is hell a lot.

That's not a given of course. ie: A chaff launcher uses a fraction of the energy of a shield booster. ie: Some builds may not be able to have shield boosters anyway...

There is only one feature what could be added for gimballs - a possibility to shoot 'as fixed' without untargetting, in the similar way as it have been done in a turret case - you can choose fire mode on right panel.

Agreed. I think that would be a reasonable addition.

Shooting with autoaim is MUCH easier and do not require skill and attention like firing frome fixed. This giving huge andvantage, thats why it require strong countermasure. If chaff will be nerfed then fixed weapons will be dead. There will be no reason to use them at all.
And for PvE gimballs/turrets works very efficient at now, and in PvP players should use skill, not autoaim, so everyone have own piece of cake now.

Agreed. But I do feel some changes would blur the lines between fixed and gimbals. ie: As people have proposed, make chaff a bit more organic rather than on/off. So it's effectiveness changes over distance/time etc...

No change needed.

The divide between fixed and gimbals seems to rigid to me (because of chaff). And the fact NPCs aren't even allowed to behave like CMDRs do, is a bit of an indication of a balancing/mechanic issue IMHO that could be addressed. At the end of the day, surely more variety is good?

TBH, I wish there was a single targeting mechanic only, which was basically gimbal over a very small arc, and if you held your target in the center aiming zone (so there was no gimbal) more damage was done. And the more the gimbal, the less the damage.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

The divide between fixed and gimbals seems to rigid to me (because of chaff). And the fact NPCs aren't even allowed to behave like CMDRs do, is a bit of an indication of a balancing/mechanic issue IMHO that could be addressed.

You keep making the claim that they are not allowed to behave like CMDRs do, without any substantation or merit.

They are allowed to use all the mechanics that we do, but unless the behavior is either programmed to happen or is emergent from the AI rules, they may not do it.

But they do fit multi chaffs, and the do use them in chains. They don't do it as long as a real commander, probably because they don't have as strong as a survival instinct and they go for the kill instead off chaffing and jumping out.

 

[Riverside]

This thread does seem to be going over old ground again, and the issue has once again become whether or not NPCs chaff repeatedly in the same way that commanders do ie uninterrupted chaff from a single targetted opponent such that the aiming accuracy of a turret or gimballed weapon is impaired for longer than 5 secs (the effective time for a single chaff burst).

I regularly fight NPCs in all environments and at all ability levels, from interdictions (both ways), through to CZs, and will regularly see an NPC use chaff, which is effective for 5secs then I have 5secs (at least) of solid lock before the chaff effect begins again. If I'm in a small ship (an Eagle for example) it may take several minutes to defeat a Vulture or other tough nut, but in my experience they do not chaff so frequently that feel it necessary to do anything other than wait (or continue to fire if I am close enough to hit them regardless.

Sadly I am logically unable to prove that they don't continually chaff as a commander can. Any number of examples where the NPC did not chaff continually cannot prove that they don't do it at all.

Happily however it can be proved that it does happen. And so what comes around goes around once again.

 

[Kyokushin]

True... But they also then lose all target information too.

Pros/cons. This is their choice, however fighting without a lock is not hard, i am playing on stealth builds from time to time and my conopy is breaking very fast, and tobe honest - this is not a big deal to aim from fixed without a lock or canopy. I just used to that, so gimballs players also can, however they can easily see when enemy stop using a chaff and lock again.

Agreed. But I do feel some changes would blur the lines between fixed and gimbals. ie: As people have proposed, make chaff a bit more organic rather than on/off. So it's effectiveness changes over distance/time etc...

Of course if you are using gimballs you no need to unlock, chaffed gimballs will also hit enemy if you are vely close. Chaff is not a total, 0/1 countermeasure for gimballs, but chaffing enemy require a change of fight strategy. Of course this is an enemy advantage, to force enemy to use other, predictable or less comfortable playing style. As i wrote - pros/cons.

Yes - shield boosters use more power, but this is player choice, to get cell shield booster, chaff, heatsink, or some scanner. Something instead of something. In fact, only top ships an FDL can get two or chaffs without significat shield downgrade.

 

[dementia]

I don't understand what the fuss is all about. I use gimballed weapons but have no issues when coming across NPCs or even real commanders who use chaff. I simply deselect them from my target scanner and my gimballed beam becomes a fixed beam. Chaff away all you like!

Please let us not gimp the Chaff in order to compensate for players inability to

1. Pilot their ship in a combat situation.
2. Adapt their tactics and control of ship modules and functions to any given situation.

SCBs were another one that didn't need messed with. A SCB is useless when the shields are down so I just kept hammering the shields. They will go down eventually and when they do the enemy was buggered.

Elite should be challenging and building the experience to know when it is best to fight and best to run is all part of the enjoyment rather than feeling you have to go toe to toe with a commander in a superior outfit or you are somehow some sort of weaker person. Allowing your pride and vanity to override common sense will result in your death. If having made all those decisions and decided to fight on and die, only to then to cry foul is what makes you weak.

 

[shambles1980]

what is essentally being sugested here without ever saying it. is that only 1 of each type of attacthemnt should be able to be attatched to the ship. Ie. 1x Pod 1x Sb 1x Chaff 1x FSDWscanner And so on..
This is a pretty stupid idea.

If some one wants 5 chaff launchers then they should be able to have it.
I like a lot of sheild boosters 1 POD and no chaff.
Others may be dfferent to the above. But We should be allowed that choice if we want it.
I use beam laser's i like the things others use pulse, Would you force us to only have one of each..
Why not just lets have every 1 have the exact same load out all round and call it a day. wouldnt that be fun!

Every measure has a counter measure. You dont need to go changing the game because you dont like the play style that counters some one else's play style.
I doubt the guy with a ship full of chafs is to thrilled about some one behind them with a ship full of fixed weapons...
But i dont see them in here crying out that all weapons should be gimbled or gimbled weapons should only fire when locked on..
I think that says a lot more about the OP than it does about any one else.

as for..
Well an npc never does it so it shouldnt be allowed..
Thats the second most stupid thing i have read in this thread (1st one being nefr chaff)
If the NPC's could do what reall people do. they would be pretty much unbeatable. If they could activly think about the situation they are in, and ones they were in previously and adapt acordingly "as we humans do" Then People would be in here screaming about it. they would have impecable combat skills, perfect timing, perfect throttle controll and judgment, perfect layout for the role they take, and Above all perfect aim.
So saying "an npc does not do it" Does not constitute an argument.
For all you know the NPCS Can do it, but just like quite a few here have, they realize its not a good game plan. Wasting slots on chaff launchers when you can be shot with non gimbled weapons or ones that arent locked on. is not a great idea when you could occupy those slots with other more useful items. particluarly if you are not just out to dog fight.

 

[NeilF]

what is essentally being sugested here without ever saying it. is that only 1 of each type of attacthemnt should be able to be attatched to the ship. Ie. 1x Pod 1x Sb 1x Chaff 1x FSDWscanner And so on..
This is a pretty stupid idea.

I'd suggest you re-read the thread then... Maybe read this post further up the page as an example - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=203446&p=3284092&viewfull=1#post3284092

If you're going to accuse people of "stupid ideas", best you understand what's being discussed/suggested?

Why not just lets have every 1 have the exact same load out all round and call it a day. wouldnt that be fun!

Kind of an ironic statement isn't it when multi-chaff and multi-SCBS at least were/are the PvP modules of choice.

But i dont see them in here crying out that all weapons should be gimbled or gimbled weapons should only fire when locked on..
I think that says a lot more about the OP than it does about any one else.

Personally I'd suggest when someone resorts to loaded comments suggestion someone is "crying", it says quite a bit about the poster.

Well an npc never does it so it shouldnt be allowed..
Thats the second most stupid thing i have read in this thread (1st one being nefr chaff)

Note: Back to declaring people's opinions "stupid" again? Why?

That's your opinion of course. IMHO, it demonstrated a balancing issue. Other examples were where NPCs were not allowed to Powerplant snipe - That to me highlighted a potential balancing issue. Strange how that's been (or his being) addressed don't you think?

Likewise NPCs were never allowed to SCB tank either - That to me highlighted a potential balancing issue. Strange how that's been (or his being) addressed don't you think?

And the point being made is NPCs are not allowed to multi-chaff. ie: You will not see a chaff shield raised for a minute or two by an NPC. Can you imagine if they did this how the community would react, and what questions it might raise?


On a final note, can I suggest you drop the loaded (personal) comments, and instead just attempt to politely debate. It makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant...

 

[NeilF]

Pros/cons. This is their choice, however fighting without a lock is not hard, i am playing on stealth builds from time to time and my conopy is breaking very fast, and tobe honest - this is not a big deal to aim from fixed without a lock or canopy. I just used to that, so gimballs players also can, however they can easily see when enemy stop using a chaff and lock again.

Just seems an unnecessary con IMHO (to lose all the lock information). A bind (hold/toggle) to fix (gimbal) weapons forwards might be useful for turret players too.