General / Off-Topic Another van attack

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Look i'm not trying to mess you around, i can't figure out how to get a Youtube vid link on here, maybe i'm having a brain deficiency issue, but i would have posted a link by now if i could, the last thing that i want to do is appear rude or lazy. I have given you the title of a video, you of course don't have to watch it, i'm just trying to have a debate, i'm not interested in falling out with anyone on an individual level, i genuinely apologize, i'm not used to forum etiquette it seems lol. o7.

 

[Sunleader]

Then for Confirmation.
Is this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noOPNkxQE9M

The Video you mean?

As I said. I mean no offense.
But yes in General if you want to use a reference or source for your side.
You dont make others look for it.

Not only because it effectively means that others have to make an effort for the opposote side.
But also because its very unpractical as Youtube even with the title will dish out hundred results.
So others never know if what they got is the right one. Thus either watch on the chance it is. Or have to backtrack and ask if its the right one.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Then for Confirmation.
Is this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noOPNkxQE9M

The Video you mean?

As I said. I mean no offense.
But yes in General if you want to use a reference or source for your side.
You dont make others look for it.

Not only because it effectively means that others have to make an effort for the opposote side.
But also because its very unpractical as Youtube even with the title will dish out hundred results.
So others never know if what they got is the right one. Thus either watch on the chance it is. Or have to backtrack and ask if its the right one.

Yes that's the video, i can tell because of the length of the vid and thumbnail, but xbox is weird, i tried to play it from your link and it said. "application not available" which is confusing because i can still browse youtube normally and see other links from here. Edit: now your link is working properly on my xbox. (xbox can't decide whether it wants to work or not lol)

I understand it's not practical, and i can see why it's not fair, this is the first time whilst debating on here that i have needed to refer to youtube videos, I'll be more careful about this in the future. No offence taken and i thank you for your patience and efforts.

 

[Sunleader]

Yes that's the video, i can tell because of the length of the vid and thumbnail, but xbox is weird, i tried to play it from your link and it said. "application not available" which is confusing because i can still browse youtube normally and see other links from here. Edit: now your link is working properly on my xbox. (xbox can't decide whether it wants to work or not lol)

I understand it's not practical, and i can see why it's not fair, this is the first time whilst debating on here that i have needed to refer to youtube videos, I'll be more careful about this in the future. No offence taken and i thank you for your patience and efforts.

Well the.
The Video is clearly very Chaotic.
I am somewhat interested in that Cartoon.

But in General I remain on the Problem that this says little about his position.

I now know he apparently twittert part of an cartoon which is generally considered offensive by Muslim due to depicting their profit.
He did not twitter a part which actually did that.
But i can understand people taking that as provocation and somehow doubt it was not intended as such.


In general i think the other two were very reasonable.
They explained their view and made clear they accept his opinion but disagree.
While he did lack any such acknowledgement and constantly attempted to undermine their opinions setting his own as the only acceptable stance.
This made him look pretty unreasonable.



Now most of all i would ask how this relates to your first statement a page ago.
That large scale immigration causes terrorism.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Well the.
The Video is clearly very Chaotic.
I am somewhat interested in that Cartoon.

But in General I remain on the Problem that this says little about his position.

I now know he apparently twittert part of an cartoon which is generally considered offensive by Muslim due to depicting their profit.
He did not twitter a part which actually did that.
But i can understand people taking that as provocation and somehow doubt it was not intended as such.


In general i think the other two were very reasonable.
They explained their view and made clear they accept his opinion but disagree.
While he did lack any such acknowledgement and constantly attempted to undermine their opinions setting his own as the only acceptable stance.
This made him look pretty unreasonable.



Now most of all i would ask how this relates to your first statement a page ago.
That large scale immigration causes terrorism.

Well first off, we can agree to differ on who we thought was more reasonable on the video, as my main point is that i think it's terrible that he was being branded an extremist just for speaking out, i'm often accused of the same.
Back to your question about how the immigration has anything to do with terror, well this video doesn't exactly go into it but it does hint at the long term societal problems caused by past Muslim immigration (the hint being the reaction to a cartoon), in the 50s and 60s these Indian and Pakistanis came for a better life, and they were willing to respect our values, of course most still are, but because off dedcades of self segregation and government neglect, many of these areas have become breeding grounds for terrorism, in the UK many of these communities are anti gay, anti womens rights, pro sharia, many of them are Muslim first, there are large parts of British cities that have communities with no respect for western values, the immigrant grandparents would actuallybe ashamed of what has happened i imagine.
When people like Majid Nawaz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and quilliam try to tackle the issue they are branded bigots by the left and traitors by many Musims. The situation with eastern European immigration is similar in someways but without the terrorist threat.

I'm a remain voter, i guess you could say that i don't really blame immigration, but i blame the way that immigration past and present has been handled.

I'm starting to get tired so i may not reply if you post again tonight but i'll look forward to feedback.

 

[Sunleader]

Well first off, we can agree to dfiffer on who we thought was more reasonable on the video, as my main point is that i think it's terrible that he was being branded an extremist just for speaking out, i'm often accused of the same.
Back to your question about how the immigration has anything to do with terror, well this video doesn't exactly go into it but it does hint at the long term societal problems caused by past Muslim immigration (the hint being the reaction to a cartoon), in the 50s and 60s these Indian and Pakistanis came for a better life, and they were willing to respect our values, of course most still are, but because off dedcades of self segregation and government neglect, many of these areas have become breeding grounds for terrorism, in the UK many of these communities are anti gay, anti womens rights, pro sharia, many of them are Muslim first, there are large parts of British cities that have communities with no respect for western values, the immigrant grandparents would actuallybe ashamed of what has happened i imagine.
When people like Majid Nawaz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and quilliam try to tackle the issue they are branded bigots by the left and traitors by many Musims. The situation with eastern European immigration is similar in someways but without the terrorist threat.

I'm a remain voter, i guess you could say that i don't really blame immigration, but i blame the way that immigration past and present has been handled.

I'm starting to get tired so i may not reply if you post again tonight but i'll look forward to feedback.

Well.
Here its biting you that i dont know more of him.
You see. The other guy does not say hes an terrorist or extremist.
He said that hes got an extremists mindset.
And I happen to agree because throughout the debate he never yielded an inch or accepted any opinion to be left on the Table except his own.
His repeated attempts to force his stance into the round as the only right thing to do. And labeling everything else down.
Is an very common trait for extremists.

And while i cant say for sure on the Bigotry part as I have not yet read all parts of his *future of islam* thingy.
I can tell that hes got a pitchfork mentality there.
Something that was common in the dark ages.
When your friend was accused of being a witch. They beat you down and told you. *prove your not a witch. Prove your not in league with them. Throw a torch at her. Stab her with a pitchfork to prove you hate her as well*


And here another thing comes into your way.
I am German.
I know a ton of muslims which are total opposite of what you describe.
And here we come to the part of what i said before.

As you just admitted.
Not the Immigration is the problem. But how it was handled.
Many Countries did like the UK as well. Not really bother integrating people.
Getting actual perspectives on citizenship in the UK is incredible hard.
And there is little to no help to integrage.
So of course the immigrants formed their own communities.

And as I said. If your constantly rejected and cornered. At some point you will be vulnearble to people influenzing you.
The reason why Sweden and Germany are targeted much less than the UK. Is because the Immigrants here far less often are desperate and thus afe not as vulnearble.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Well.
Here its biting you that i dont know more of him.
You see. The other guy does not say hes an terrorist or extremist.
He said that hes got an extremists mindset.
And I happen to agree because throughout the debate he never yielded an inch or accepted any opinion to be left on the Table except his own.
His repeated attempts to force his stance into the round as the only right thing to do. And labeling everything else down.
Is an very common trait for extremists.

And while i cant say for sure on the Bigotry part as I have not yet read all parts of his *future of islam* thingy.
I can tell that hes got a pitchfork mentality there.
Something that was common in the dark ages.
When your friend was accused of being a witch. They beat you down and told you. *prove your not a witch. Prove your not in league with them. Throw a torch at her. Stab her with a pitchfork to prove you hate her as well*


And here another thing comes into your way.
I am German.
I know a ton of muslims which are total opposite of what you describe.
And here we come to the part of what i said before.

As you just admitted.
Not the Immigration is the problem. But how it was handled.
Many Countries did like the UK as well. Not really bother integrating people.
Getting actual perspectives on citizenship in the UK is incredible hard.
And there is little to no help to integrage.
So of course the immigrants formed their own communities.

And as I said. If your constantly rejected and cornered. At some point you will be vulnearble to people influenzing you.
The reason why Sweden and Germany are targeted much less than the UK. Is because the Immigrants here far less often are desperate and thus afe not as vulnearble.

Germany is very different to the UK and France, you have had better integration, no doubt about it, the situation here is despeate, and these communities are very problematic right now, yes, i'm sure we both agree that government is partly to blame, but religion is an obvious factor, and i just wish that people on the left would not call people a bigot just for bringing it up.
We will probably never agree on the details about people like Majid Nawaz vs Mehdi Hassan when they talk about religion and terrorism. But surely we can agree not to brand eachother as bigots an extremists just for suggesting a debate on religion ?
And for the record, i also know a lot of Muslims who are not part of the problem, in fact i never said that any individual was the problem, but that the religion itself was the problem, people take offence to that but i'm not trying to mock individuals, i'm trying to critisise the idea of Islam (or any religion) in the same way that we would all critisise the idea of fascism or communism.

 

[Sunleader]

Germany is very different to the UK and France, you have had better integration, no doubt about it, the situation here is despeate, and these communities are very problematic right now, yes, i'm sure we both agree that government is partly to blame, but religion is an obvious factor, and i just wish that people on the left would not call people a bigot just for bringing it up.
We will probably never agree on the details about people like Majid Nawaz vs Mehdi Hassan when they talk about religion and terrorism. But surely we can agree not to brand eachother as bigots an extremists just for suggesting a debate on religion ?
And for the record, i also know a lot of Muslims who are not part of the problem, in fact i never said that any individual was the problem, but that the religion itself was the problem, people take offence to that but i'm not trying to mock individuals, i'm trying to critisise the idea of Islam (or any religion) in the same way that we would all critisise the idea of fascism or communism.

Religion is nothing but another Ideology.
No Offense intended. But it is Bigotry in this case. Albeit from my Point of view the Left itself is not the slightest bit less of bigotry

Because any Ideology that tries to force its values onto others will potentially trigger conflict.
The Left calling names here is a good Joke in the First Place. As the left is one of the biggest Factions of Terrorist Attacks in Europe.
Responsible for more than 10 times the amount of attacks as Islam.
But they Profit from the same fact as Christian Terrorists.
Even if they kill people nobody calls it terrorism or links it to the entire Faction. Its always labeled as act of individuals instead.

And make no mistake.
Democracy is the very same.
And Democracy is currently one of the most Aggressive Ideologies out there.

Another one by the way is Atheism. And Atheism is one of the more Aggressive ones as well

Any Ideology is effectively prone to Terrorism.
And you wont have Human Society with Ideology

A Few Examples.
For example for the USA.
Look at it. And then ask yourself why one of these gets so much attention while the other big group is something you rarely hear about
And look at the other groups as well.

If you check overall Statistics you will also notice that Religious Extremism is actually an entirely minor thing in Europe anyways.
Most of our Extremeists are Left/Right

This one is older. But it has not changed that much.
And its a good showcase why the Left of all People should Shut up actually about Islamists. because the left is one of the biggest Single Groups in the EU which has done terrorists attacks.

So Mate.
You seriously telling me that this is a Religion Problem ?
You think just because their Ideology claims to have a God they are worse than the other Ideologies we have which do the very same thing just without praying to a god ?

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Religion is nothing but another Ideology.
No Offense intended. But it is Bigotry in this case. Albeit from my Point of view the Left itself is not the slightest bit less of bigotry

Because any Ideology that tries to force its values onto others will potentially trigger conflict.
The Left calling names here is a good Joke in the First Place. As the left is one of the biggest Factions of Terrorist Attacks in Europe.
Responsible for more than 10 times the amount of attacks as Islam.
But they Profit from the same fact as Christian Terrorists.
Even if they kill people nobody calls it terrorism or links it to the entire Faction. Its always labeled as act of individuals instead.

And make no mistake.
Democracy is the very same.
And Democracy is currently one of the most Aggressive Ideologies out there.

Another one by the way is Atheism. And Atheism is one of the more Aggressive ones as well

Any Ideology is effectively prone to Terrorism.
And you wont have Human Society with Ideology

A Few Examples.
For example for the USA.
Look at it. And then ask yourself why one of these gets so much attention while the other big group is something you rarely hear about
And look at the other groups as well.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...5bn5Qesuq7Z3NzOxDZv5d59Va3ok_8uyWpXPVYGS6j_ep


If you check overall Statistics you will also notice that Religious Extremism is actually an entirely minor thing in Europe anyways.
Most of our Extremeists are Left/Right

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/uploads/articles/2014-11/terrorist-ideologies-trends.jpg


This one is older. But it has not changed that much.
And its a good showcase why the Left of all People should Shut up actually about Islamists. because the left is one of the biggest Single Groups in the EU which has done terrorists attacks.

http://www.unaoc.org/wp-content/uploads/TerrorChart2010.gif




So Mate.
You seriously telling me that this is a Religion Problem ?
You think just because their Ideology claims to have a God they are worse than the other Ideologies we have which do the very same thing just without praying to a god ?

I see your point, it's well made, and factual no doubt. But the world needs to have some kind of order, i'm in no way excuseing any left wing terrorism across Europe, but i ask you this question, where would you rather live ? A social democracy ? or a religious dictatorship ? France or Saudi Arabia ? The UK or Pakistan ? My point being, from my perspective, an atheist liberal from the UK, where almost all of the terrorism is either religious or right wing, surely you can see why i prefer "my way" which is secular freedom for all, everyone should be able to join and leave any religion, to mock or defend any belief....what can you have against my ideology ? Try to remember that there are parts of the UK major cities where unofficial sharia law operates, surely this is an attack on western demoracy, a threat to liberal values, just because you have not experienced the same in Germany, does not mean that it's not happening elsewhere.

Look, it's not the fault of the people, it's government policy that's allowed these areas to fail, but the fact remains that if the religion didn't exist, there would be no breeding ground for the type of terrorism we are seeing now, so religion in this case, must be blamed along with other factors. You might think me ignorant or an idiot, but i'm no bigot, to be a bigot i'd have to start negatively judging every Muslim i see, which is something i don't do.

 

[Sunleader]

I see your point, it's well made, and factual no doubt. But the world needs to have some kind of order, i'm in no way excuseing any left wing terrorism across Europe, but i ask you this question, where would you rather live ? A social democracy ? or a religious dictatorship ? France or Saudi Arabia ? The UK or Pakistan ? My point being, from my perspective, an atheist liberal from the UK, where almost all of the terrorism is either religious or right wing, surely you can see why i prefer "my way" which is secular freedom for all, everyone should be able to join and leave any religion, to mock or defend any belief....what can you have against my ideology ? Try to remember that there are parts of the UK major cities where unofficial sharia law operates, surely this is an attack on western demoracy, a threat to liberal values, just because you have not experienced the same in Germany, does not mean that it's not happening elsewhere.

Look, it's not the fault of the people, it's government policy that's allowed these areas to fail, but the fact remains that if the religion didn't exist, there would be no breeding ground for the type of terrorism we are seeing now, so religion in this case, must be blamed along with other factors. You might think me ignorant or an idiot, but i'm no bigot, to be a bigot i'd have to start negatively judging every Muslim i see, which is something i don't do.

That Question is Irrelevant. Because it depends on what you are.
I am Conservative Social Democratic. So I would of course prefer to Life in a Social Democracy as it is closer to my own Ideology.
But theres the thing. Where do you thing an Strictly Religious Conservative would prefer to Life?

And yes. I know. But thats exactly what I am trying to tell you there.
You got your own Ideology. And you of course want this Ideology to be the Predominant one.
And now heres the Crackpoint. You consider other Ideologies a Threat and go to the point where you would like yours to be the only one

And thats the thing.
Your currently part of the Controlling Ideology Groups. So your part of the Locals.
If you want this you are not an Terrorist.
Now the other Ideologies want the exactly same as you. Just for their own Ideology. But they are not the ones in Control. Hence they are Rebels/Terrorists/Extremists etc
Flat Way of thinking dont you think ?


Now what could I possibly have against your Ideology.
Well lets make a quick example.
Your attempting to Force your Ideology on others. So to me there is little difference between your Ideology and that of ISIS.
Now both you and Isis say your Ideology is right and is better for the People You just want the best for the People where they can life Happy lifes.
And both of you are wrong for their Respective Followers which place Value in different Ideas and have different Priorities. But if you ask me both are wrong.

Because if you think about it.
The Freedom to choose any Religion. Great in your Eyes. But this also means that you create Conflict because this always means you have different Factions all over.
Moreover. As you place the State above Religion (Something I do as well by the way) you also dont actually Allow these Religions because some of their Rules are in Direct Conflict with the States Laws. So its not True that you wish for absolute Freedom for all here.
You merely Tolerate a limited amount of Freedom in Believe while banning any Practices that you consider not in line with your own Ideology
And Finally the Freedom to mock or defend any belief. THIS is a BOMB.
Because this means you Allow for Conflict and Provocation. Because the moment you allow others to Mock the thing others belief in. As well as other Defending it. Your essentially breeding a Conflict. Because this will forcibly at some point Escalate




And see thats the other thing why I disagree with you.
"If Religion didint exist there would be breeding ground for the type of terrorism we are seeing now."

Because That is Rubbish.
I just showed you the Statistics did I not ?
Europe has 3% Religious Terrorism. 45% Political Terrorism and 52% Nationalist Rebel Terrorism.
The only thing changing if Religion did not Exist. Would be that the same Terrorism would happen under a Different Name

Any Ideology is always a Breeding Ground for Terrorism.
To begin with this Type of Terrorism comes from an Ideology called "Democracy"

You might have forgotten. But the ones who Invented this Type of Terrorism was not the Islam.
It was the USA in the Name of Democracy when they recruited and trained Terrorists to Fight the Soviets.

Now the idea of Ideology is much older. Because ever since Humanity has stopped living in Tribes.
Humanity has gathered its Soldiers under the Banner of whatever Culture, Religion, Ideology, Skin Color, Social Status or something as laughable as your Job. Whatever they had in common against the one you wanted them to fight.
And anything works as a breeding ground here
ANYTHING
And Laugh not. People have been Killed and are hunted for something as stupid as their Hair Color.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/africa/africa-albino-hunted-bones-malawi/index.html


As long as there is even the slightest Difference.
It will be a possible Breeding Ground for Terrorism mate.

Sad.
But thats the Reality of Humanity.

And History has Shown.
If one Enemy Ceases to Exist or is Defeated. Than the only thing that happens. Is that the next minority takes its place.

If you want to know the truth about why Islam is now the Enemy of the Western Democracy.
Then I can tell you the reason for that
Its because the Soviet Union and thus the Threat of Communism has Collapsed and the People needed something else to Unite against

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

That Question is Irrelevant. Because it depends on what you are.
I am Conservative Social Democratic. So I would of course prefer to Life in a Social Democracy as it is closer to my own Ideology.
But theres the thing. Where do you thing an Strictly Religious Conservative would prefer to Life?

And yes. I know. But thats exactly what I am trying to tell you there.
You got your own Ideology. And you of course want this Ideology to be the Predominant one.
And now heres the Crackpoint. You consider other Ideologies a Threat and go to the point where you would like yours to be the only one

And thats the thing.
Your currently part of the Controlling Ideology Groups. So your part of the Locals.
If you want this you are not an Terrorist.
Now the other Ideologies want the exactly same as you. Just for their own Ideology. But they are not the ones in Control. Hence they are Rebels/Terrorists/Extremists etc
Flat Way of thinking dont you think ?


Now what could I possibly have against your Ideology.
Well lets make a quick example.
Your attempting to Force your Ideology on others. So to me there is little difference between your Ideology and that of ISIS.
Now both you and Isis say your Ideology is right and is better for the People You just want the best for the People where they can life Happy lifes.
And both of you are wrong for their Respective Followers which place Value in different Ideas and have different Priorities. But if you ask me both are wrong.

Because if you think about it.
The Freedom to choose any Religion. Great in your Eyes. But this also means that you create Conflict because this always means you have different Factions all over.
Moreover. As you place the State above Religion (Something I do as well by the way) you also dont actually Allow these Religions because some of their Rules are in Direct Conflict with the States Laws. So its not True that you wish for absolute Freedom for all here.
You merely Tolerate a limited amount of Freedom in Believe while banning any Practices that you consider not in line with your own Ideology
And Finally the Freedom to mock or defend any belief. THIS is a BOMB.
Because this means you Allow for Conflict and Provocation. Because the moment you allow others to Mock the thing others belief in. As well as other Defending it. Your essentially breeding a Conflict. Because this will forcibly at some point Escalate




And see thats the other thing why I disagree with you.
"If Religion didint exist there would be breeding ground for the type of terrorism we are seeing now."

Because That is Rubbish.
I just showed you the Statistics did I not ?
Europe has 3% Religious Terrorism. 45% Political Terrorism and 52% Nationalist Rebel Terrorism.
The only thing changing if Religion did not Exist. Would be that the same Terrorism would happen under a Different Name

Any Ideology is always a Breeding Ground for Terrorism.
To begin with this Type of Terrorism comes from an Ideology called "Democracy"

You might have forgotten. But the ones who Invented this Type of Terrorism was not the Islam.
It was the USA in the Name of Democracy when they recruited and trained Terrorists to Fight the Soviets.

Now the idea of Ideology is much older. Because ever since Humanity has stopped living in Tribes.
Humanity has gathered its Soldiers under the Banner of whatever Culture, Religion, Ideology, Skin Color, Social Status or something as laughable as your Job. Whatever they had in common against the one you wanted them to fight.
And anything works as a breeding ground here
ANYTHING
And Laugh not. People have been Killed and are hunted for something as stupid as their Hair Color.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/07/africa/africa-albino-hunted-bones-malawi/index.html


As long as there is even the slightest Difference.
It will be a possible Breeding Ground for Terrorism mate.

Sad.
But thats the Reality of Humanity.

And History has Shown.
If one Enemy Ceases to Exist or is Defeated. Than the only thing that happens. Is that the next minority takes its place.

If you want to know the truth about why Islam is now the Enemy of the Western Democracy.
Then I can tell you the reason for that
Its because the Soviet Union and thus the Threat of Communism has Collapsed and the People needed something else to Unite against

I cover my ideology in the other thread (the battle within the left), but on this thread i have only one thing left to say on our particular exchange, i don't wish to force my views onto anyone, i want to convince people democratically, if they then don't like my way they can vote another way. I think you have misunderstood me, i'm taking an ideological battering on these forums but that's okay, we can disagree.

 

[Sunleader]

I cover my ideology in the other thread (the battle within the left), but on this thread i have only one thing left to say on our particular exchange, i don't wish to force my views onto anyone, i want to convince people democratically, if they then don't like my way they can vote another way. I think you have misunderstood me, i'm taking an ideological battering on these forums but that's okay, we can disagree.

"I want to convine people democratically, if they then dont like my way they can vote another way."

You forget one Importand thing.
They are not Democratic and do not think that Rule by Majority is Just or Good.

And they got Arguments which are pretty Sound.
After all its also true that Democracy has alot of Flaws.
It slows Progress because its hard to press any changes through.
Its also very dangerous because everyone is allowed to vote. Even the ones which have absolutely no idea what their vote even means.


Thats exactly what "Forcing your Views onto others" means Mate.
You say you want to Convince them. But before you Convince them you are already Forcing them into the Rules of your Chosen Ideology.

What your doing in essence is this.

Your an Chess Player. And you walk onto an Poker Table Proclaiming that Chess is the only Contest allowed to make decisions.
And if anyone Disagrees with you they are always Welcome to Beat you in a Chess Game.

You notice something ?


We dont wish to force our views onto anyone, We just want to convince people faithfully, if they then dont like our ways they can still go to the priests and rally for a change of the Korans interpretion.

Problem on ISIS is the same as with Democracy.
Before either you or them allows you to even voice their own opinion. They have to first Convert to the Ideology.
In your case to Democracy.
In their case to Islam


We are Disagreeing here from the Start Mate *gg*
If we did not Disagree I would not argue like that

The reason I argue with you. Is because I want you to Realize this.
Your just as Ideological as any other Human there is.
Good in your Eyes might be Pure Evil in the eyes of another. And what your consider Right and Proper. Might be Wrong and Absurd for the other.

WHAT your actually Ideology is there is not even Important to me.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

"I want to convine people democratically, if they then dont like my way they can vote another way."

You forget one Importand thing.
They are not Democratic and do not think that Rule by Majority is Just or Good.

And they got Arguments which are pretty Sound.
After all its also true that Democracy has alot of Flaws.
It slows Progress because its hard to press any changes through.
Its also very dangerous because everyone is allowed to vote. Even the ones which have absolutely no idea what their vote even means.


Thats exactly what "Forcing your Views onto others" means Mate.
You say you want to Convince them. But before you Convince them you are already Forcing them into the Rules of your Chosen Ideology.

What your doing in essence is this.

Your an Chess Player. And you walk onto an Poker Table Proclaiming that Chess is the only Contest allowed to make decisions.
And if anyone Disagrees with you they are always Welcome to Beat you in a Chess Game.

You notice something ?


We dont wish to force our views onto anyone, We just want to convince people faithfully, if they then dont like our ways they can still go to the priests and rally for a change of the Korans interpretion.

Problem on ISIS is the same as with Democracy.
Before either you or them allows you to even voice their own opinion. They have to first Convert to the Ideology.
In your case to Democracy.
In their case to Islam


We are Disagreeing here from the Start Mate *gg*
If we did not Disagree I would not argue like that

The reason I argue with you. Is because I want you to Realize this.
Your just as Ideological as any other Human there is.
Good in your Eyes might be Pure Evil in the eyes of another. And what your consider Right and Proper. Might be Wrong and Absurd for the other.

WHAT your actually Ideology is there is not even Important to me.

So you are arguing to argue ? I'm confused.... or are you trying to say western democracy is no different to religious dictatorship ?
Also i know i'm ideological, and my ideology actually does not force others others to agree with me. (i'm fully aware that the world will never 100% agree).

I think our exchange has gone on long enough, i just hope you are not thinking me an extremist.

 

[Sunleader]

So you are arguing to argue ? I'm confused.... or are you trying to say western democracy is no different to religious dictatorship ?
Also i know i'm ideological, and my ideology actually does not force others others to agree with me. (i'm fully aware that the world will never 100% agree).

I think our exchange has gone on long enough, i just hope you are not thinking me an extremist.

1.
I am arguing to make people think
I like to make people realize things and start questioning them.


2.
You are
After all. As you said yourself. You want to Convince other Democratically. That means you are already forcing them under your Rules. You do not accept things being solved by the means of their Ideology.
The moment you deny the other Ideology from being Justified you force your own onto them
So unless you say that ISIS is correct and their Caliphate is acceptable to you. You are effectively forcing your Ideology onto them
They are no better than you of course. They dont Accept Democracy either after all *gg*
But yes. In Effect there is no Difference between Democracy and Religious Dictatorship. Both are merely Ideologies. And what you consider right or wrong depends entirely on your own Ideology.


3.
Thats fine.
If you do not wish to Continue then you can stop any time.
I have no way to Force you to continue

And dont worry.
I think of you not less and not more Extremist than ISIS
Your but another Person propagating his own Ideology and attempting to convince others of it by the means that your ideology considers appropriate
I just hope that you maybe start asking yourself. If it will make anything better when you fight an Ideology that is forcing itself onto others. By forcing an Ideology onto others

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

1.
I am arguing to make people think
I like to make people realize things and start questioning them.


2.
You are
After all. As you said yourself. You want to Convince other Democratically. That means you are already forcing them under your Rules. You do not accept things being solved by the means of their Ideology.
The moment you deny the other Ideology from being Justified you force your own onto them
So unless you say that ISIS is correct and their Caliphate is acceptable to you. You are effectively forcing your Ideology onto them
They are no better than you of course. They dont Accept Democracy either after all *gg*
But yes. In Effect there is no Difference between Democracy and Religious Dictatorship. Both are merely Ideologies. And what you consider right or wrong depends entirely on your own Ideology.


3.
Thats fine.
If you do not wish to Continue then you can stop any time.
I have no way to Force you to continue

And dont worry.
I think of you not less and not more Extremist than ISIS
Your but another Person propagating his own Ideology and attempting to convince others of it by the means that your ideology considers appropriate
I just hope that you maybe start asking yourself. If it will make anything better when you fight an Ideology that is forcing itself onto others. By forcing an Ideology onto others

I question things all the time, my political beliefs have indeed evolved.
But i reject the comparison between myself and a religious extremist, extremism implies a dangerous ideology, ISIS is dangerous, my secular humanist ideology is the opposite to dangerous, and in no way forces people to think like me.
I was hoping to stop on a civil tone, but you have literally said that i'm no less extremist than ISIS, can you see why i find that quite unsettling ?

 

[Sunleader]

I question things all the time, my political beliefs have indeed evolved.
But i reject the comparison between myself and a religious extremist, extremism implies a dangerous ideology, ISIS is dangerous, my secular humanist ideology is the opposite to dangerous, and in no way forces people to think like me.
I was hoping to stop on a civil tone, but you have literally said that i'm no less extremist than ISIS, can you see why i find that quite unsettling ?

Oh is it ?
Then let me ask you this.

What do you do when ISIS Rejects to Vote and Simply Continues what its doing ?

We both know the answer. And we both know this will ultimately End this way.


Now ask yourself this as well.
What choices are there here which would not be Dangerous ?

There is only 2
1. Islam Convert/Obeys to Democracy
2. or Democracy Convert/Obey to Islam

Both offer it. And both will use Violence if the other does not Comply.



You say your Ideology is not Dangerous.
But if you look at the Ideology of the West. Freedom, Democracy etc.
What have they done when others Rejected them ?


I would say your Ideology is very Dangerous.
Because I have a different Ideology.

Of course your Views are not Dangerous to your Views
But do you think ISIS for example would not consider it very Dangerous if your way of thinking would Spread among their Members ?
Would it not Create Conflict and Death if they refused to obey your Ideology ?


No Ideology is Dangerous as long as you Submit to it.
If all of us would just Submit to ISIS and their Ideology. The World would be a very Peaceful Place
But if you base the threat of your Ideology on the assumption of others agreeing and accepting it. Then any Ideology including ISIS is entirely Harmless

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Oh is it ?
Then let me ask you this.

What do you do when ISIS Rejects to Vote and Simply Continues what its doing ?

We both know the answer. And we both know this will ultimately End this way.


Now ask yourself this as well.
What choices are there here which would not be Dangerous ?

There is only 2
1. Islam Convert/Obeys to Democracy
2. or Democracy Convert/Obey to Islam

Both offer it. And both will use Violence if the other does not Comply.



You say your Ideology is not Dangerous.
But if you look at the Ideology of the West. Freedom, Democracy etc.
What have they done when others Rejected them ?


I would say your Ideology is very Dangerous.
Because I have a different Ideology.

Of course your Views are not Dangerous to your Views
But do you think ISIS for example would not consider it very Dangerous if your way of thinking would Spread among their Members ?
Would it not Create Conflict and Death if they refused to obey your Ideology ?


No Ideology is Dangerous as long as you Submit to it.
If all of us would just Submit to ISIS and their Ideology. The World would be a very Peaceful Place
But if you base the threat of your Ideology on the assumption of others agreeing and accepting it. Then any Ideology including ISIS is entirely Harmless

I do see your point. But please tell me this, ISIS wants to kill us, i just want a vote, i'm not threatening Muslims in my own country if they don't vote. I'm just asking you CMDR to CMDR, Human to Human, in the terms of good vs bad, do you really think i'm as bad as ISIS ? And considering you said that you are also democratic, how are you and i different in that sense ?

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Look, i respect you, i'd like to think you are trying to teach me a lesson in debate and thought (i can respect that) rather than suggesting that i'm anything like ISIS, which is a disturbing and hurtful suggestion, and i'd like to think i'd get a little more respect from a fellow CMDR, after all i have not slandered you personally in such a way.

So on the basis that i understand the point you were trying to make, and in the hope that you don't really think i'm an extremist just because we disagree , i hope we get along fine in the future. o7 CMDR.

 

[Sunleader]

I do see your point. But please tell me this, ISIS wants to kill us, i just want a vote, i'm not threatening Muslims in my own country if they don't vote. I'm just asking you CMDR to CMDR, Human to Human, in the terms of good vs bad, do you think i'm as bad as ISIS ? And considering you said that you are also democratic, how are you and i different in that sense ?

Look, i respect you, i'd like to think you are trying to teach me a lesson in debate and thought (i can respect that) rather than suggesting that i'm anything like ISIS, which is a disturbing and hurtful suggestion, and i'd like to think i'd get a little more respect from a fellow CMDR, after all i have not slandered you personally in such a way.

So on the basis that i understand the point you were trying to make, and in the hope that you don't really think i'm an extremist just because we disagree , i hope we get along fine in the future. o7 CMDR.

Hmm.
Ok ok. Guess I took this a bit too far.
You might laugh. But if I really considered you to be like ISIS i would not bother talking to you like this.


To clear up what I am doing and why thats Simple.
You were primarily agitated that the two Muslims there called Majid Nawaz an extremist.

What I demonstratet here is simply that wether or not your an extremist depends on your views.
Of course measured on our Western Standards and Views your neither Evil nor Extremist.
But do you think its fair to measure things solely by our Standards?

What I did was simply that I measured you by a different standart instead.
I am sorry if I took this a bit far. I didnt mean to offend you.
Especially because that would decrease chances of you having the realization i wanted to get you too.


Now 2 things

1.
ISIS does not want to kill us actually.
They want us to convert to Islam and obey the Sharia
Which in their views is justified and an act of Goodwill to save our souls from falling into hell after our death.
But we refuse. We disregard their Laws and keep Sinning and doing Evil things
So they use force to protect their Values.

At least by their standarts that is *gg*


2.
Then the Question is what will you do ?
They Refuse to obey your Laws and they dont care for what you vote. Because to them its blasphemy to think that a human would be allowed to overrule the Laws of God.
So what will you do?

The Answer is simple.
We do the same they do down there in the area they claim as their country.
We enforce our Laws and our Authority. If required with Violence


Long Story Short.
Pls stop with the whitewash.
We have our Ideology and we enforce it. If needed with Violence.
Trying to claim the Morale High Ground just makes us look like hypocrites.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Hmm.
Ok ok. Guess I took this a bit too far.
You might laugh. But if I really considered you to be like ISIS i would not bother talking to you like this.


To clear up what I am doing and why thats Simple.
You were primarily agitated that the two Muslims there called Majid Nawaz an extremist.

What I demonstratet here is simply that wether or not your an extremist depends on your views.
Of course measured on our Western Standards and Views your neither Evil nor Extremist.
But do you think its fair to measure things solely by our Standards?

What I did was simply that I measured you by a different standart instead.
I am sorry if I took this a bit far. I didnt mean to offend you.
Especially because that would decrease chances of you having the realization i wanted to get you too.


Now 2 things

1.
ISIS does not want to kill us actually.
They want us to convert to Islam and obey the Sharia
Which in their views is justified and an act of Goodwill to save our souls from falling into hell after our death.
But we refuse. We disregard their Laws and keep Sinning and doing Evil things
So they use force to protect their Values.

At least by their standarts that is *gg*


2.
Then the Question is what will you do ?
They Refuse to obey your Laws and they dont care for what you vote. Because to them its blasphemy to think that a human would be allowed to overrule the Laws of God.
So what will you do?

The Answer is simple.
We do the same they do down there in the area they claim as their country.
We enforce our Laws and our Authority. If required with Violence


Long Story Short.
Pls stop with the whitewash.
We have our Ideology and we enforce it. If needed with Violence.
Trying to claim the Morale High Ground just makes us look like hypocrites.

Well, i'm glad we cleared that up, i can accept the accusation of hypocricy much better lol.
Seriously though i do understand you, i guess as a Hitchens and Dawkins style atheist i'm prone to being aggressive towards religious ideology in favour of my own. i also mean no offence to any individuals. o7, you have a good night mate.