Any grind, is in your mind.

[-VR- Max Factor]

Your borderline resorting to insults now Max - the sign of losing an argument. I'm trying to explain a point, you're failing to understand it. I'm giving you the courtesy of my time to try and get across this VERY easy to understand concept. You and Sleut refuse to accept it or fail to understand it.

Look, you're both trying to put the blame on me here - I'm not the one that cannot understand grinding game mechanics. I haven't wasted "hunderds of hours" on the game because it's not up to par. You may both enjoy a game based on RNG, where nothing makes sense and the gameplay is simple and basic - can you now see how others here can understand the things the two of you cannot even after 30 pages of us explaining it to you.

"But Jex, you're desperate to prove your point!!"

LMAO no, you're not able to grasp it but I'm done here. I'll let you both have the last word and make up things about my position because you're both disingenuous - go for it

I am not insulting anyone. I know what a grind mechanic is. What you describe is not a grind mechanic. Sorry mate, but are wrong on this one. As i said earlier. The Mechanics are fine, they are the same as virtually every other game out there. I know where the faults are within the game. But forced grind isn't one of them. Nothing in this game forces you to grind.

Everytime you point something out, or someone else, it has always been the choice of the individual and how they go about getting to their goals.

 

[JuicerPrime]

Everytime you point something out, or someone else, it has always been the choice of the individual and how they go about getting to their goals.

The analogy to "don't grind it'll happen in time" made me think today of a glass being filled by leaving it under a dripping tap. Some people might be fine to wait and do other things until the glass is filled; others are thirsty and want it filled quickly. If the mechanics could cater to both people who enjoy taking things easy and people who would like quicker, more consistent ways to reach their goals (i.e. ships, credits, ships filled with credits) when they need them, wouldn't that be a good thing for all concerned?

The other thing is, is there some intangible aspect of a slower game pace that appeals to a portion of the community that they want to see preserved, hence all the revisiting of this debate? Atmosphere, associating the slow pace with a good point or moment in their lives, comfortable familiarity? Because I'm wondering now why y'all have to keep slinging mud at each other when we could be pondering the possibilities available for a comfy middle-point for everyone to meet in [blah]

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The analogy to "don't grind it'll happen in time" made me think today of a glass being filled by leaving it under a dripping tap. Some people might be fine to wait and do other things until the glass is filled; others are thirsty and want it filled quickly. If the mechanics could cater to both people who enjoy taking things easy and people who would like quicker, more consistent ways to reach their goals (i.e. ships, credits, ships filled with credits) when they need them, wouldn't that be a good thing for all concerned?

The other thing is, is there some intangible aspect of a slower game pace that appeals to a portion of the community that they want to see preserved, hence all the revisiting of this debate? Atmosphere, associating the slow pace with a good point or moment in their lives, comfortable familiarity? Because I'm wondering now why y'all have to keep slinging mud at each other when we could be pondering the possibilities available for a comfy middle-point for everyone to meet in [blah]

That I agree with. More ways of achieving something would be great. This is constructive. I personally would like a mixture. I agree that the game could cater for people who want stuff a bit quicker, there could be two paths, a quicker but much more dangerous and difficult path, and the slower, but less dangerous path. I have no issues with that. It would also give some nice variation for everybody as well.

But at the end of the day it is still down to the player and how they go about it.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

The analogy to "don't grind it'll happen in time" made me think today of a glass being filled by leaving it under a dripping tap. Some people might be fine to wait and do other things until the glass is filled; others are thirsty and want it filled quickly. If the mechanics could cater to both people who enjoy taking things easy and people who would like quicker, more consistent ways to reach their goals (i.e. ships, credits, ships filled with credits) when they need them, wouldn't that be a good thing for all concerned?

The other thing is, is there some intangible aspect of a slower game pace that appeals to a portion of the community that they want to see preserved, hence all the revisiting of this debate? Atmosphere, associating the slow pace with a good point or moment in their lives, comfortable familiarity? Because I'm wondering now why y'all have to keep slinging mud at each other when we could be pondering the possibilities available for a comfy middle-point for everyone to meet in [blah]

I'd Rep you if I could but it seems I've handed it all out for the next 24 hours but yes, this is what should be getting proposed by those who want a quicker route instead of us all having the same argument all the time. As I'm happy with how things are I'd be interested to hear from others what possible ideas they have on this, it could be an interesting topic for debate as opposed to an argument.

 

[listerinfiji]

I said in my only post in this thread I wouldn't write in here again while it was just back and forth arguing with nothing really constructive being added.

The analogy to "don't grind it'll happen in time" made me think today of a glass being filled by leaving it under a dripping tap. Some people might be fine to wait and do other things until the glass is filled; others are thirsty and want it filled quickly. If the mechanics could cater to both people who enjoy taking things easy and people who would like quicker, more consistent ways to reach their goals (i.e. ships, credits, ships filled with credits) when they need them, wouldn't that be a good thing for all concerned?

The other thing is, is there some intangible aspect of a slower game pace that appeals to a portion of the community that they want to see preserved, hence all the revisiting of this debate? Atmosphere, associating the slow pace with a good point or moment in their lives, comfortable familiarity? Because I'm wondering now why y'all have to keep slinging mud at each other when we could be pondering the possibilities available for a comfy middle-point for everyone to meet in [blah]

I'd just like to say I agree with and support the above 100%. Thank you JuicerPrime

There really is no point in arguing about who is right and who is wrong, but rather we should be focusing on potential improvements that would be agreeable to both sets of fans.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The analogy to "don't grind it'll happen in time" made me think today of a glass being filled by leaving it under a dripping tap. Some people might be fine to wait and do other things until the glass is filled; others are thirsty and want it filled quickly.

Or to put it in terms that will resonate with the community: if you wanna get drunk you can spend hours chugging beers back, or you'll go the Alabama Slammer route and have it dealt with in 10 minutes.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Or to put it in terms that will resonate with the community: if you wanna get drunk you can spend hours chugging beers back, or you'll go the Alabama Slammer route and have it dealt with in 10 minutes.

I have done both types a number of times

But you're still doing it wrong ;-)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have done both types a number of times

But you're still doing it wrong ;-)

I know [sad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4plPGRG8o

 

[listerinfiji]

So we've had a couple of statements now, myself included, where we've said we should be focusing on improvements. I'll confess to not being the best ideas person in the world, but in the spirit of trying to move this discussion along in what I feel is the right direction I thought I'd step up and have a go at presenting an idea.

So focusing on one of the 'grinds' - naval progression.

At the moment we only receive naval specific missions in order to rank up to the next level. For our day to day rank percentage it's just standard faction based missions. So for example for me currently I am Federal ranked as Post Captain and I know it will take me 4-5 delivery missions to increase myself by 1%.

I'd like to see a small spattering of fast track naval missions on the mission boards. Not a lot of them, but from time to time so it makes you want to grab it. These should be high risk/high reward. So in regards to that aspect maybe the reward should be 5% added to my naval percentage, but the risk should be a deduction of 2% on failure (percentage would obviously vary based on your current rank, and I think for lower ranked players their risk shouldn't be quite so high).

Maybe we could have a mission to infiltrate an under construction capital ship, in transit, having no active weapons but having a wing guard. We'd have to take out a specific objective on the ship, maybe the power plant for example to halt/delay the transit.

For the more mid/long term oriented people I could expand on the above objective and say let's have a similar one on a wider scale. This would then be scheduled for a certain time (maybe 3 days in advance), but would have wider mission availability for all players in an attack or defend mechanic based on for which navy you are fighting.

As I said I'm not the greatest ideas person but I did want to throw something out there to try and help the discussion - maybe somebody else can expand on the above, or it might help somebody else come up with a new idea.

 

[Martian Successor]

I'd just like to point out that it's not so black and white. The issue for a lot of folks isn't just about faster versus slower progress. Some activities like the military lack-of-career grind has problems that will not be fixed by simply giving it a quicker but more dangerous route to obtaining ranks. Activities like this need a total rework so they stop looking and feeling like a skeleton, bare bones mother of all chores. So too does the bounty spawn camp proffession. It needs to start resembling a Boba Fett simulator imo - tracking down and hunting targets, laying traps for them, bringing them in alive sometimes for bigger payouts, all that loveliness.

With bounty hunting I guess we could start with having a mechanic that gives you a much bigger payout if you bring in the target alive for example - that's not necessarily faster but it gives one a choice that can net you more credits thus reducing the feeling of monotony and lets the player feel like they're being rewarded for their skill and experience - Maybe when space legs gets here we can have this.

I suppose what I'm saying is that we shouldn't just settle for wanting generic faster vs slower options. We should get creative with the options and make a commitment towards asking FD to improve the quality of the activities that need better quality like the aforementioned military career, bounty hunting, et al.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'd just like to point out that it's not so black and white. The issue for a lot of folks isn't just about faster versus slower progress. Some activities like the military lack-of-career grind has problems that will not be fixed by simply giving it a quicker but more dangerous route to obtaining ranks. Activities like this need a total rework so they stop looking and feeling like a skeleton, bare bones mother of all chores. So too does the bounty spawn camp proffession. It needs to start resembling a Boba Fett simulator imo - tracking down and hunting targets, laying traps for them, bringing them in alive sometimes for bigger payouts, all that loveliness.

With bounty hunting I guess we could start with having a mechanic that gives you a much bigger payout if you bring in the target alive for example - that's not necessarily faster but it gives one a choice that can net you more credits thus reducing the feeling of monotony and lets the player feel like they're being rewarded for their skill and experience - Maybe when space legs gets here we can have this.

I suppose what I'm saying is that we shouldn't just settle for wanting generic faster vs slower options. We should get creative with the options and make a commitment towards asking FD to improve the quality of the activities that need better quality like the aforementioned military career, bounty hunting, et al.

FDev have stated that the Naval ranks will be looked into and will be fleshed out into a proper career kind of thing. Hope that the Alliance will get some love too.

oh and great idea.

 

[Vorxian]

So we've had a couple of statements now, myself included, where we've said we should be focusing on improvements. I'll confess to not being the best ideas person in the world, but in the spirit of trying to move this discussion along in what I feel is the right direction I thought I'd step up and have a go at presenting an idea.

So focusing on one of the 'grinds' - naval progression.

At the moment we only receive naval specific missions in order to rank up to the next level. For our day to day rank percentage it's just standard faction based missions. So for example for me currently I am Federal ranked as Post Captain and I know it will take me 4-5 delivery missions to increase myself by 1%.

I'd like to see a small spattering of fast track naval missions on the mission boards. Not a lot of them, but from time to time so it makes you want to grab it. These should be high risk/high reward. So in regards to that aspect maybe the reward should be 5% added to my naval percentage, but the risk should be a deduction of 2% on failure (percentage would obviously vary based on your current rank, and I think for lower ranked players their risk shouldn't be quite so high).

Maybe we could have a mission to infiltrate an under construction capital ship, in transit, having no active weapons but having a wing guard. We'd have to take out a specific objective on the ship, maybe the power plant for example to halt/delay the transit.

For the more mid/long term oriented people I could expand on the above objective and say let's have a similar one on a wider scale. This would then be scheduled for a certain time (maybe 3 days in advance), but would have wider mission availability for all players in an attack or defend mechanic based on for which navy you are fighting.

As I said I'm not the greatest ideas person but I did want to throw something out there to try and help the discussion - maybe somebody else can expand on the above, or it might help somebody else come up with a new idea.

+1 for adding constructive content

I wonder if it should be more about time vs rewards, rather than risk. That way, navy / imperial progression would include and be open to non combat folks. Perhaps scattered longer missions, that take the feel of 'grind' away. If you can 'grind' 10% in an hour (just for example).. give a mission that approximates about an hour, but it's adventure, or exploration, or delivery or transporting VIPs etc, and the ultimate reward is a rep jump. Alleviating the repetition of small grind fests that quite frankly are boring as watching paint dry, the solution is to provide single longer missions that have meaning, and tangible offerings as rewards.

Heck even I'd prefer one mission that pays 20% rank than 1 hour of solid mindless lore-less arbitrary meaningless nonsense repetitive boredom.

 

[Martian Successor]

So we've had a couple of statements now, myself included, where we've said we should be focusing on improvements. I'll confess to not being the best ideas person in the world, but in the spirit of trying to move this discussion along in what I feel is the right direction I thought I'd step up and have a go at presenting an idea.

So focusing on one of the 'grinds' - naval progression.

At the moment we only receive naval specific missions in order to rank up to the next level. For our day to day rank percentage it's just standard faction based missions. So for example for me currently I am Federal ranked as Post Captain and I know it will take me 4-5 delivery missions to increase myself by 1%.

I'd like to see a small spattering of fast track naval missions on the mission boards. Not a lot of them, but from time to time so it makes you want to grab it. These should be high risk/high reward. So in regards to that aspect maybe the reward should be 5% added to my naval percentage, but the risk should be a deduction of 2% on failure (percentage would obviously vary based on your current rank, and I think for lower ranked players their risk shouldn't be quite so high).

Maybe we could have a mission to infiltrate an under construction capital ship, in transit, having no active weapons but having a wing guard. We'd have to take out a specific objective on the ship, maybe the power plant for example to halt/delay the transit.

For the more mid/long term oriented people I could expand on the above objective and say let's have a similar one on a wider scale. This would then be scheduled for a certain time (maybe 3 days in advance), but would have wider mission availability for all players in an attack or defend mechanic based on for which navy you are fighting.

As I said I'm not the greatest ideas person but I did want to throw something out there to try and help the discussion - maybe somebody else can expand on the above, or it might help somebody else come up with a new idea.

Now THAT'S a naval career I would be able to engage with. +1

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

+1 for adding constructive content

I wonder if it should be more about time vs rewards, rather than risk. That way, navy / imperial progression would include and be open to non combat folks. Perhaps scattered longer missions, that take the feel of 'grind' away. If you can 'grind' 10% in an hour (just for example).. give a mission that approximates about an hour, but it's adventure, or exploration, or delivery or transporting VIPs etc, and the ultimate reward is a rep jump. Alleviating the repetition of small grind fests that quite frankly are boring as watching paint dry, the solution is to provide single longer missions that have meaning, and tangible offerings as rewards.

Heck even I'd prefer one mission that pays 20% rank than 1 hour of solid mindless lore-less arbitrary meaningless nonsense repetitive boredom.

An interesting idea but I personally wouldn't go as far as 1 hour long activity quests - it's a bit too long to ask in my opinion. Something like a 20 to 30 minute adventure mission would be more prefferable in my opinion because branching missions in ED so far feel overly long and un-satisfying in terms of reward per time spent.

 

[Vorxian]

I'd do a 3 hour mission if it meant going from Rank 11 to Rank 12 in one go

 

[listerinfiji]

+1 for adding constructive content

I wonder if it should be more about time vs rewards, rather than risk. That way, navy / imperial progression would include and be open to non combat folks. Perhaps scattered longer missions, that take the feel of 'grind' away. If you can 'grind' 10% in an hour (just for example).. give a mission that approximates about an hour, but it's adventure, or exploration, or delivery or transporting VIPs etc, and the ultimate reward is a rep jump. Alleviating the repetition of small grind fests that quite frankly are boring as watching paint dry, the solution is to provide single longer missions that have meaning, and tangible offerings as rewards.

Heck even I'd prefer one mission that pays 20% rank than 1 hour of solid mindless lore-less arbitrary meaningless nonsense repetitive boredom.

On the subject of exploration... I find a lot of people who engage in exploration are interested in the beauty offered by ED, and will often take lots of screenshots. Potentially something can be done involving certain types of pictures? That's on the exploration front, but I guess on the military front even pictures can be appropriate eg intelligence.

Haha I stole that idea from Zoo Tycoon 2! (Showing my age now).

 

[Martian Successor]

Did.... Did this thread just take a step towards redeeming itself?

https://youtu.be/4BOQI-LAEzM

By the Force! \0/

 

[Vorxian]

On the subject of exploration... I find a lot of people who engage in exploration are interested in the beauty offered by ED, and will often take lots of screenshots. Potentially something can be done involving certain types of pictures? That's on the exploration front, but I guess on the military front even pictures can be appropriate eg intelligence.

Haha I stole that idea from Zoo Tycoon 2! (Showing my age now).

ED is undeniably beautiful

I had a thought of a Federal NPC called DB, and he wants to take some polaroids in Pleiades. When he gets back, damn you get that promotion! You'll have to of course, email those screenshots to FDEV!

Promotions are strange beasts!

 

[listerinfiji]

ED is undeniably beautiful

I had a thought of a Federal NPC called DB, and he wants to take some polaroids in Pleiades. When he gets back, damn you get that promotion! You'll have to of course, email those screenshots to FDEV!

Promotions are strange beasts!

I think sending screenshots to FDev would be too high maintenance for them - and that's not a criticism, that's me being realistic.

However I do feel a portion of this can be automated. For example getting a certain shot from a particular planet, of a star and the planet's moon. The mission itself could suggest coordinates and timings for potentially making the shot.

To widen it up though, we could involve FDev by also having a 'winner' - so the same mission offered to many players over a couple of months. They can submit their shots to FDev so a winner can be selected. Or even at that stage involve the community, let FDev post their top 5 here on the forum, and then let the community vote on an overall winner. So all players get something out of doing the mission, but there is further incentive for a lucky overall winner.

 

[Truesilver]

So we've had a couple of statements now, myself included, where we've said we should be focusing on improvements. I'll confess to not being the best ideas person in the world, but in the spirit of trying to move this discussion along in what I feel is the right direction I thought I'd step up and have a go at presenting an idea.

So focusing on one of the 'grinds' - naval progression.

At the moment we only receive naval specific missions in order to rank up to the next level. For our day to day rank percentage it's just standard faction based missions. So for example for me currently I am Federal ranked as Post Captain and I know it will take me 4-5 delivery missions to increase myself by 1%.

I'd like to see a small spattering of fast track naval missions on the mission boards. Not a lot of them, but from time to time so it makes you want to grab it. These should be high risk/high reward. So in regards to that aspect maybe the reward should be 5% added to my naval percentage, but the risk should be a deduction of 2% on failure (percentage would obviously vary based on your current rank, and I think for lower ranked players their risk shouldn't be quite so high).

Maybe we could have a mission to infiltrate an under construction capital ship, in transit, having no active weapons but having a wing guard. We'd have to take out a specific objective on the ship, maybe the power plant for example to halt/delay the transit.

For the more mid/long term oriented people I could expand on the above objective and say let's have a similar one on a wider scale. This would then be scheduled for a certain time (maybe 3 days in advance), but would have wider mission availability for all players in an attack or defend mechanic based on for which navy you are fighting.

As I said I'm not the greatest ideas person but I did want to throw something out there to try and help the discussion - maybe somebody else can expand on the above, or it might help somebody else come up with a new idea.

+1 from me also.

(Although I think that failure meaning loss of the time invested in the mission would be enough penalty (no need to deduct rank) if the mission is long enough.)

For me, the way ED PvE should head is towards an alternative to (not a replacement for) the current time'n'Netflix model of low- or no-skill, none-achievement time-gating.

I have no problem with all of that staying as is for those who find it relaxing but I would like to see another tier of rewards added, whereby the principal thing required of the player is skill development.

Examples: I understand that there are Cmdrs out there who are highly skilled at driving the buggy, at racing around stations or in canyons, at smuggling into stations without being scanned, at finding trade routes or at doing whatever it is that explorers do. Some I gather are even good at travelling around in SC faster than others (to do with approaching stations and bodies etc.)

At the moment these are all things I don't really pay attention to but they are all in the game. I know that if (eg) you're a bit better with the buggy you might get a marginally better mat farm per hour but, really, these things are just that - marginal.

Combat examples are obvious (eg, take down this Annie with this Eagle for this massive reward) but what about other skill progressions based on the above, such as:

- Drive to / around / within this base, you'll have to be ultra-quick to do it
- Same re flying ships, perhaps concerning canyons and all that
- Same with smuggling, trading
- Same with doing an A>B cargo transport mission but one that makes every single second count

There are probably many other areas of the game whereby players would welcome being encouraged to achieve real progress rather than just 'travel 5,000 Ly from start'...

Remember the fun you had trying to beat your best time on your favourite track on Mario Kart? While not a racer myself, this is what I mean. Not just, 'RNGineer will talk to you when you have been around that track 1000 times.'

 

[Chrysophylax]

So focusing on one of the 'grinds' - naval progression.

At the moment we only receive naval specific missions in order to rank up to the next level. For our day to day rank percentage it's just standard faction based missions. So for example for me currently I am Federal ranked as Post Captain and I know it will take me 4-5 delivery missions to increase myself by 1%.

I'd like to see a small spattering of fast track naval missions on the mission boards. Not a lot of them, but from time to time so it makes you want to grab it. These should be high risk/high reward. So in regards to that aspect maybe the reward should be 5% added to my naval percentage, but the risk should be a deduction of 2% on failure (percentage would obviously vary based on your current rank, and I think for lower ranked players their risk shouldn't be quite so high).

I agree with nearly everything.

I'd change 5% to 25% or more, and tailor the 4 or so missions per level to the level itself - that is, increase the skill requirements for them. This could be neatly integrated into the already existing game - like, 10 million in combat bonds - or it could be a way for FDev to include structured 'storylines' or simply unique missions.

5% is still 20 missions for a level which really doesn't solve the grinding issue IMO. I would do a mission that took an hour 4 times, but wouldn't do 240 one minute missions - assuming the single mission is something that requires skill.