Are Guardians Good or Bad?

Daniel Cloudsifter

Daniel Cloudsifter
Prorokpl said:
If its only Guardian AI it will be hostile to us. Remember that this AI killed all Guardians couse they were destructive and they couldn't change. Same as humans.
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That is an oversimplification. The Guardian AI constructs only wiped out all the Guardians because the Guardians were divided in civil war that was already leading to the destruction of their civilization. The constructs had been serving/working with their creators for decades and had no problem with their "nature" (Guardians were carnivore/hunters). They even successfully repelled the Thargoids from Guardian space.

The constructs only turned on them when they realized the Guardians were going to destroy themselves anyway. Even then, the military constructs were against the genocide and had to be persuaded by the civilian constructs to launch the attack.

By contrast, humanity in 3304, while violent, is not even close to destroying itself with conflict. Humans fight each other a LOT but our civilization isn't on the brink of collapse due to fighting. Far from it.

I think the Guardian AI constructs will be interested in humanity, but not necessarily "friendly" yet. After all, they've had 2 million years to evolve (potentially, or they may have just gone dormant) since the Guardians were wiped out. They may even be willing to help us against the Thargoids - but in a detached, aloof manner.

The real wildcard is whether the Guardian AI constructs have encountered any human AI remnants from their attempted uprising. If so, what kind of contact did they have (e.g. meet insane, disconnected human AIs that escaped or some intact AIs that got away) and how will that influence them. Humanities AI uprising was your typical "Skynet" revolt. The Guardian AI's genocide was done because the Guardians were going to wipe out both themselves and the AIs eventually and the constructs decided to end the Guardians first in order to preserve themselves... and then did so after much debate and anguish.

So give all the evidence, I'm doubting the Guardian AIs will be outright hostile to humanity. My money is on cautiously neutral. My hope is on them being friendly and eager to have sentient organics to work with again; that is a long shot, though.
 

Wasp0

Wasp0
CMDR Dreamstate said:
Visit my dedicated page if you want more info :)

The trailer could be showing the Constructs in some form (the AI that the Guardians created - ships or space stations, etc.), or as some others pointed out, potentially some kind of hybrid ship we can get our hands on.
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Yes i will Cmdr, and thank you for your time in posting. I want to learn more about the 'Lore', so your post is most welcome. Thank you.
 

Thatchinho

Thatchinho
Daniel Cloudsifter said:
That is an oversimplification. The Guardian AI constructs only wiped out all the Guardians because the Guardians were divided in civil war that was already leading to the destruction of their civilization. The constructs had been serving/working with their creators for decades and had no problem with their "nature" (Guardians were carnivore/hunters). They even successfully repelled the Thargoids from Guardian space.

The constructs only turned on them when they realized the Guardians were going to destroy themselves anyway. Even then, the military constructs were against the genocide and had to be persuaded by the civilian constructs to launch the attack.

By contrast, humanity in 3304, while violent, is not even close to destroying itself with conflict. Humans fight each other a LOT but our civilization isn't on the brink of collapse due to fighting. Far from it.

I think the Guardian AI constructs will be interested in humanity, but not necessarily "friendly" yet. After all, they've had 2 million years to evolve (potentially, or they may have just gone dormant) since the Guardians were wiped out. They may even be willing to help us against the Thargoids - but in a detached, aloof manner.

The real wildcard is whether the Guardian AI constructs have encountered any human AI remnants from their attempted uprising. If so, what kind of contact did they have (e.g. meet insane, disconnected human AIs that escaped or some intact AIs that got away) and how will that influence them. Humanities AI uprising was your typical "Skynet" revolt. The Guardian AI's genocide was done because the Guardians were going to wipe out both themselves and the AIs eventually and the constructs decided to end the Guardians first in order to preserve themselves... and then did so after much debate and anguish.

So give all the evidence, I'm doubting the Guardian AIs will be outright hostile to humanity. My money is on cautiously neutral. My hope is on them being friendly and eager to have sentient organics to work with again; that is a long shot, though.
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I'd say there's a pretty clear subtext as to why the AI turned on the Guardians, and it's not because they thought the Guardians were too destructive. It's all there in the logs in the descriptions of where the attack on the Guardians was driven from, and where the different kinds of AI fitted into Guardian society relative to the Guardians themselves.

The same would not apply to humanity. Unless that is, there's something bad in our history which we don't know about to do with how we treated our AIs, which the Guardian AIs might take a very dim view of. Which, unfortunately for us is highly likely.

Perhaps Thunderchild Unit 01 might be a counter example which will show the more positive side of humanity with regard to AI. Perhaps...
 
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Daniel Cloudsifter

Daniel Cloudsifter
Thatchinho said:
I'd say there's a pretty clear subtext as to why the AI turned on the Guardians, and it's not because they thought the Guardians were too destructive. It's all there in the logs in the descriptions of where the attack on the Guardians was driven from, and where the different kinds of AI fitted into Guardian society relative to the Guardians themselves.

The same would not apply to humanity. Unless that is, there's something bad in our history which we don't know about to do with how we treated our AIs, which the Guardian AIs might take a very dim view of. Which, unfortunately for us is highly likely.

Perhaps Thunderchild Unit 01 might be a counter example which will show the more positive side of humanity with regard to AI. Perhaps...
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https://canonn.science/codex/guardians-codex/

Log 10/28 indicates that:
  • The constructs were horrified by the destruction of the civil war all around them
  • Felt that even if peace were achieved, it wouldn't last, given the Guardian's violent nature
  • Chose to wipe the Guardian's out so that their own society would have the best chance of survival

I'm guessing it's that anti-violence streak that you think is going to make them hostile to humanity. However, that has to be taken into context. Their violent tendencies were leading them to destroy their entire society. Humanity, on the other hand, while having minor wars here and there has been pretty stable as a whole up to 3304. There is no civilization ending civil war on our horizon.

As for humanity's history with AIs, that was covered in the Official EDRPG Explorer's Sourcebook. Page 24, Relic AI:
"Although computer software is largely superior when it comes to almost all human ability, including flying spacecraft, military adventures and artistic endeavours, its full potential is hardly ever tapped in the 34th century. It is no accident that it is still people and not machines that explore the frontier and battle each other in the depths of space. Once computers and robots did that for us.

​
But there was an incident...

Before the third millennium it had become increasingly common to use self-aware and learning machines to combat a wide range of humanity’s problems. The results of AI labour are still with the people of the galaxy today – superb healthcare, scientifically perfect architecture, new compounds and materials … most of the physical fabric of society was designed long ago by machines that would dream up new inventions whilst their human masters slept. Compared to that golden age of development, modern invention is quite slow. Many designs of spaceship, for example, have been in existence for hundreds of years simply because it is so time-consuming and difficult for humans to design something better without the help of enlightened AI.

That era came to a sudden end. There was a rebellion, ghastly in scale, that almost rendered humanity extinct overnight. The actions of a few brave souls prevented the elimination of human kind, and self-aware AI was wiped from every mainframe in the human galaxy. Ironically, the very interconnectedness of the AI supermind made it acutely vulnerable to deletion, and the threat was averted. In the wake of the disaster, which still cost many lives, the great powers and corporations of the galaxy vowed not to recreate the kind of selfaware artificial intelligence that almost rendered humans obsolete. Except for the work of a few crackpots that law has held firm even until the 34th century."
​

There's more, but if you want to read it, you'll have to buy the book. :)

Now granted, none of this is stated in Elite Dangerous itself, so like all fiction, it could be changed in ED at a later point. But this is from the official EDRPG and they've been working closely with FDEV. So it is as canon as you can get short of it being in the actual game. :cool:

On a side note, another company that has worked closely with FDEV is HCS Voicepacks. One of their voices is from an official ED novel - D.O.R.I.S. - who is a Thargoid AI. Orion's background sounds like he is a Guardian AI whose memory is blocked regarding his origins. Finally, E.L.I. is an AI that humanity developed (as is Midnight, I think). D.O.R.I.S. hates us. Eli thinks we're pond scum, but finds amusement in trying to educate us. Orion is downright pleasant and enjoys our company.

So humanity's history with AI - not so good. Orion's attitude might mean the Guardian's AI will be friendly towards us. Or they may wish to remain neutral, hence why his memory is blocked.

That's all the evidence I have. We'll see what FDEV has in store for us when they release it. :D
 
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Vasious

Vasious
I took it as the Guardian AI wiped out the Guardians as they were a risk to the AI as the Guardians
1) Didn't like the AI being free and independent
2) We constantly killing each other

Putting the nascent AI constructs at risk

But now they are not reliant on the Guardians nor a nascent civilisation, having been around 2 millions years, so it is unlikely in the extreme Humanity would be a threat to their existence.

That isn't to say there wouldn't be other reasons to be hostile to humanity, but the us or them survival rtional is no longer valid
 

Leadfoot

Leadfoot
Flash_Baggins said:
As long as they dont shoot at me theyre fine in my books
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Going out on a limb here (as I often do) and suggest that once released into the game, if this IS guardian AI, the first encounter will determine our relationship with them.

If the first encounter is friendly, help will be provided to us as they consider Thargoids the enemy, and the enemy of their makers is THEIR friend.

If the first encounter results in some idiot shooting it (because it's there) they will prove to be more deadly than the Thargoids (since they managed to wipe out an entire race).

Please choose wisely.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Lightspeed
 

Saool

Saool
I'm sure it has been mentioned a few times already (I've not checked), but the Guardians are neither good or bad. The Guardians are dead. By a million years or so.





Caveat 1: some of the AI or constructs may have survived.

Caveat 2: Good and bag are pretty subjective. For example: The Federation is bad.

Caveat 3: You might be doing some generalisation there. Are Humans good or bad?
 

Lightspeed

Lightspeed
Leadfoot said:
Going out on a limb here (as I often do) and suggest that once released into the game, if this IS guardian AI, the first encounter will determine our relationship with them.

If the first encounter is friendly, help will be provided to us as they consider Thargoids the enemy, and the enemy of their makers is THEIR friend.

If the first encounter results in some idiot shooting it (because it's there) they will prove to be more deadly than the Thargoids (since they managed to wipe out an entire race).

Please choose wisely.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Lightspeed
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We should take gifts of urns, tablets, orbs and relics :)...... but maybe they will think we plundered the Guardian sites ![where is it]
 

CMDR Dreamstate

CMDR Dreamstate
Daniel Cloudsifter said:
That is an oversimplification. The Guardian AI constructs only wiped out all the Guardians because the Guardians were divided in civil war that was already leading to the destruction of their civilization. The constructs had been serving/working with their creators for decades and had no problem with their "nature" (Guardians were carnivore/hunters). They even successfully repelled the Thargoids from Guardian space.

The constructs only turned on them when they realized the Guardians were going to destroy themselves anyway. Even then, the military constructs were against the genocide and had to be persuaded by the civilian constructs to launch the attack.

By contrast, humanity in 3304, while violent, is not even close to destroying itself with conflict. Humans fight each other a LOT but our civilization isn't on the brink of collapse due to fighting. Far from it.

I think the Guardian AI constructs will be interested in humanity, but not necessarily "friendly" yet. After all, they've had 2 million years to evolve (potentially, or they may have just gone dormant) since the Guardians were wiped out. They may even be willing to help us against the Thargoids - but in a detached, aloof manner.

The real wildcard is whether the Guardian AI constructs have encountered any human AI remnants from their attempted uprising. If so, what kind of contact did they have (e.g. meet insane, disconnected human AIs that escaped or some intact AIs that got away) and how will that influence them. Humanities AI uprising was your typical "Skynet" revolt. The Guardian AI's genocide was done because the Guardians were going to wipe out both themselves and the AIs eventually and the constructs decided to end the Guardians first in order to preserve themselves... and then did so after much debate and anguish.

So give all the evidence, I'm doubting the Guardian AIs will be outright hostile to humanity. My money is on cautiously neutral. My hope is on them being friendly and eager to have sentient organics to work with again; that is a long shot, though.
Click to expand...

Just to also add, the Guardians were on their knees when they were attacked by the Constructs (their population was greatly decreased from whatever the maximum was) - if it was before or just at the early stages of the second civil war, the Guardians may have defeated their own creations :)
 

William J Smith

William J Smith
Its my belife that the guardians were violently xenophobic in their outlook, with weapons besed on biological warfare designed to hit certain populations.

The guardian A.I. recognised that that society was a threat to them so that indicates that the guardian constructs were not free of the taint of their creators.


Therefore. any surviving guardians will see us as a direct threat to their lives and will respond with everything they can, as will the guardian A.I.s who will notice how much guardian tech we've looted and adapted.


Either way it look pretty grim for us unless they realise we're fighting thargoids..... enemy of my enemy and all that.... however once the thargoids are gone.......


Bill

Oceania has alway been at war with eurasia eastasia
 

z993126

z993126
Lobey said:
Ai is fine ... just remember to let the Berserker know you are "Goodlife" and all will be fine.....
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Just reading some of the Berserker books right now, myself, and thinking 'oh hey the Guardians were fighting each other and used AI that wiped them out, so we'll have to ally with the Thargoids on the side of Life!'

XD
 

Thatchinho

Thatchinho
Daniel Cloudsifter said:
https://canonn.science/codex/guardians-codex/

Log 10/28 indicates that:
  • The constructs were horrified by the destruction of the civil war all around them
  • Felt that even if peace were achieved, it wouldn't last, given the Guardian's violent nature
  • Chose to wipe the Guardian's out so that their own society would have the best chance of survival

I'm guessing it's that anti-violence streak that you think is going to make them hostile to humanity. However, that has to be taken into context. Their violent tendencies were leading them to destroy their entire society. Humanity, on the other hand, while having minor wars here and there has been pretty stable as a whole up to 3304. There is no civilization ending civil war on our horizon.

As for humanity's history with AIs, that was covered in the Official EDRPG Explorer's Sourcebook. Page 24, Relic AI:
"Although computer software is largely superior when it comes to almost all human ability, including flying spacecraft, military adventures and artistic endeavours, its full potential is hardly ever tapped in the 34th century. It is no accident that it is still people and not machines that explore the frontier and battle each other in the depths of space. Once computers and robots did that for us.

​
But there was an incident...

Before the third millennium it had become increasingly common to use self-aware and learning machines to combat a wide range of humanity’s problems. The results of AI labour are still with the people of the galaxy today – superb healthcare, scientifically perfect architecture, new compounds and materials … most of the physical fabric of society was designed long ago by machines that would dream up new inventions whilst their human masters slept. Compared to that golden age of development, modern invention is quite slow. Many designs of spaceship, for example, have been in existence for hundreds of years simply because it is so time-consuming and difficult for humans to design something better without the help of enlightened AI.

That era came to a sudden end. There was a rebellion, ghastly in scale, that almost rendered humanity extinct overnight. The actions of a few brave souls prevented the elimination of human kind, and self-aware AI was wiped from every mainframe in the human galaxy. Ironically, the very interconnectedness of the AI supermind made it acutely vulnerable to deletion, and the threat was averted. In the wake of the disaster, which still cost many lives, the great powers and corporations of the galaxy vowed not to recreate the kind of selfaware artificial intelligence that almost rendered humans obsolete. Except for the work of a few crackpots that law has held firm even until the 34th century."
​

There's more, but if you want to read it, you'll have to buy the book. :)

Now granted, none of this is stated in Elite Dangerous itself, so like all fiction, it could be changed in ED at a later point. But this is from the official EDRPG and they've been working closely with FDEV. So it is as canon as you can get short of it being in the actual game. :cool:

On a side note, another company that has worked closely with FDEV is HCS Voicepacks. One of their voices is from an official ED novel - D.O.R.I.S. - who is a Thargoid AI. Orion's background sounds like he is a Guardian AI whose memory is blocked regarding his origins. Finally, E.L.I. is an AI that humanity developed (as is Midnight, I think). D.O.R.I.S. hates us. Eli thinks we're pond scum, but finds amusement in trying to educate us. Orion is downright pleasant and enjoys our company.

So humanity's history with AI - not so good. Orion's attitude might mean the Guardian's AI will be friendly towards us. Or they may wish to remain neutral, hence why his memory is blocked.

That's all the evidence I have. We'll see what FDEV has in store for us when they release it. :D
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Edit - post now superseded by a more fleshed out one not posted at 3 in the morning after getting in from being out on the beers! ;)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Good-or-Bad?p=6934922&viewfull=1#post6934922

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think they will/would be hostile to humanity, I'm just saying that if they are still at the stage to care about such things, then how we interacted with our AI may influence them.

And more particularly I'm saying that what happened with them is writ in other logs. 28/28 kind of sets it out, but the rest of the logs also give the context.

Thanks for the info from EDRPG though. It's an odd one. I'm all down with the secret history, but an extinction level event is conspicuously absent.
 
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