Are medium ships going to viable for AX for much longer?

[tolm]

In that build I scan, since I use turreted EN AX MCs for the hearts.

Prior to Update 15, in my Guardian Weapons builds, I did not scan, since I use fixed and the hearts glowed when exerted.

Now, after Update 15, since Hearts do not glow anymore, I scan the Interceptor.

Cool - makes sense!

I dropped the scanner from my FAS build for more heatsinks but the lack of glowing is a …“problem”, shall we say?

My preferred weapons for an Interceptor are Mod Plasmas for hull and Mod Shards for Hearts. But that setup is a little fiddly for Scouts, hence I swapped the Plasmas for MCs.

Never occurred to me to switch it around and use the MCs for hearts …

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I use the scanner as well as I am running the gimballed MCs.

 

[tolm]

I use the scanner as well as I am running the gimballed MCs.

Yeh - I only just dropped the scanner to fit caustic sinks …

All I want is a FAS with 6 utility slots and an extra C3 hard point on the roof … heck, also switch the C3 under the nose to a C2 and I’d still be happy!!

 

[Wisho]

A four MC Krait is very viable for clopses and has no issues exerting hearts. Basilisks not so much. It might have been because I also had trouble keeping the distance closed, but when I tried it out I basically emptied out the complete mags of the MCs without exerting the first heart.

I run a mixed setup of two large MCs and two gauss cannons, which works very well.

Read about "Armour Piercing" values and influence on effective damage and you'll find out why small/medium MCs are helpless against all interceptors, large ones and small Shards merely do the job against Clopses, and all other do fine unless you want to solo a Hydra then Gauss becomes your only option.

 

[Wisho]

All I want is a FAS with 6 utility slots and an extra C3 hard point on the roof … heck, also switch the C3 under the nose to a C2 and I’d still be happy!!

6 U-slots is a FDL but optionals are scarce and you'll have to pick between decent hull and efficient MRPs. The extra C3 on the roof is the Chieftain.

You may also want to look at the Challenger - subtle differences with the Chieftain but these totally change the best-working loadouts and gameplay, especially with fixed weapons.
You'll read many "Chieftain is best." but for me the balance often tips to the Chally when raw speed is not essential.

All three are incredibly easy and agile to fly, they make me feel I'm trying to drive a soapy brick when I'm flying any of the Feds...

 

[Lukozer]

Then, after it gets a bit less angry from doing that:

Exposed Hydra hearts in CZ's have looked like that for a while now.... at least, they have on my PC, which is no guarantee they've looked like that for everyone...

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Exposed Hydra hearts in CZ's have looked like that for a while now.... at least, they have on my PC, which is no guarantee they've looked like that for everyone...

Hydra hearts used to look like that, they were fixed.

 

[Wisho]

Hydra hearts are also partially covered by hull, there is a certain angle at which you just can't see nor shoot it - and the opposite angle, which is something like 45° clockwise, the heart is completely exposed.
It's a feature that's always been there to add a little difficulty to the ultimate interceptor variant.

Now I remember having seen hearts look like Lukozer's screenshot, but very seldom and can't remind in what situations... So I guess that's a visual bug indeed.

 

[tolm]

6 U-slots is a FDL but optionals are scarce and you'll have to pick between decent hull and efficient MRPs. The extra C3 on the roof is the Chieftain.

You may also want to look at the Challenger - subtle differences with the Chieftain but these totally change the best-working loadouts and gameplay, especially with fixed weapons.
You'll read many "Chieftain is best." but for me the balance often tips to the Chally when raw speed is not essential.

All three are incredibly easy and agile to fly, they make me feel I'm trying to drive a soapy brick when I'm flying any of the Feds...

Yeh, FDL has both the internals and off-centre pilot position against it for me but I have considered trying one.

Chieftain has too many small hardpoints - small mod shards / plasmas are way less effective than mediums - and no C3 internal for a weapon stabiliser so you have to “waste” a C4.

Could try a Chally … I think I rolled one a while back but never stuck with it but that was before weapon stabilisers and such. Still only 4 utilities, though.

 

[Wisho]

Agreed for small modshards, 60 AP means too much damage winds up in armour, however small MPCs have 90 AP which is as much as medium shards, so I'd say they're still OK for Clops/Basi.
Out of that their damage/MW ratio is roughly the same as mediums, only damage/heat gets worse but unless you fry WEP heat is hardly the limiting factor with MPCs.

I think those 3 small hardpoints are also here to let us be creative : multiple small thermal vents are so efficient you can even drop heatsinks in some cases, regen sequence can come in handy in a wing, for the fearless cytoscramblers are a blast against shields, 3 small gausses are as fine as 2 medium ones, and likely many other options I can't think of.

That being said, when on a specific build 3 main hardpoints are not enough, or having 1 C4 instead of 2 C3 is a deal-breaker... back to the "subtle" Chieftain/Chally differences

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Cool - makes sense!

I dropped the scanner from my FAS build for more heatsinks but the lack of glowing is a …“problem”, shall we say?

Oh, yes it is.

You can still see a kind of white particles around the heart, but it is definitely much harder to aim. Specially with the distortion caused by the interceptor's wake.

My preferred weapons for an Interceptor are Mod Plasmas for hull and Mod Shards for Hearts. But that setup is a little fiddly for Scouts, hence I swapped the Plasmas for MCs.

Never occurred to me to switch it around and use the MCs for hearts …

Well, Plasmas are better for Hull, as you used before and AX MCs better for hearts. Shards are actually good for both, but produce enormous amounts of heat (specifically Mod Shards).

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Yeh - I only just dropped the scanner to fit caustic sinks …

All I want is a FAS with 6 utility slots and an extra C3 hard point on the roof … heck, also switch the C3 under the nose to a C2 and I’d still be happy!!

Why not try a Federal Gunship? It has a lot more hardpoints, but it is less maneuverable.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Yeh, FDL has both the internals and off-centre pilot position against it for me but I have considered trying one.

Chieftain has too many small hardpoints - small mod shards / plasmas are way less effective than mediums - and no C3 internal for a weapon stabiliser so you have to “waste” a C4.

Could try a Chally … I think I rolled one a while back but never stuck with it but that was before weapon stabilisers and such. Still only 4 utilities, though.

The Challenger is a good ship. Maneuverable, well armoured and with good firepower options.

But are you sure you want to go for a Weapon Stabilizer ?

For most AX Combat, it will probably be more detrimental than necessary because of the increased power consumption.

Do you use Long Range Thermal Vent Beams for keeping cool while the Interceptor's shield decays?

 

[tolm]

The Challenger is a good ship. Maneuverable, well armoured and with good firepower options.

But are you sure you want to go for a Weapon Stabilizer ?

For most AX Combat, it will probably be more detrimental than necessary because of the increased power consumption.

Do you use Long Range Thermal Vent Beams for keeping cool while the Interceptor's shield decays?

I have TV Beams on the Cutter but not the FAS.

I have the weapon Stabilizer on the Cutter too - previously for 2x EAX MCs and 3x Shards, now for 3x EAX MCs and 2x Plasmas.

If I went Chally I could just do 2 and 2 I guess but that’s no real benefit over the FAS.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

For most AX Combat, it will probably be more detrimental than necessary because of the increased power consumption.

It's bugged, description says it uses power but it doesn't.

 

[Wisho]

If I went Chally I could just do 2 and 2 I guess but that’s no real benefit over the FAS.

You need to keep one thing in mind with the Chally : weapons focus is basically divided in 2 groups.
The 3 C2 hardpoints are closely horizontally aligned on the bottom of the ship, which is perfect for fixed weapons, whereas the top C3 slot is quite off them - and perfectly centered with the 3 C1 slots. Hence cool 1L3s and/or 3m possibilities. Splitting that in 2m2m might give actual mixed results.

BTW kinda same thing with the Chieftain : the C2 slot is "alone far away" on the bottom and quite a pain to focus with - here again 1L3s fixed sets and a standalone 1m secondary can feel way better.

And yeah, the stabz is bugged since U15. Not eager to see it fixed though, "big" AX weaponry is power-hungry enough as it is.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

And yeah, the stabz is bugged since U15. Not eager to see it fixed though, "big" AX weaponry is power-hungry enough as it is.

Not just since update 15, the stabilizers never used power since they were added.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

It's bugged, description says it uses power but it doesn't.

But FDev will plug that hole soon enough. They always do, when it is beneficial to the player...

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Regarding the Alliance Challenger, mind also the class 6 Power Distributor—it makes those seven hardpoints quite difficult to use together if they are laden with Guardian weapons, as opposed to low-draw Multi-cannons or zero-draw Missiles. I consider class 6 to be already barely enough for Guardian weapons on a Chieftain, and the loss of agility with the Challenger is a quite steep price to pay for an extra hardpoint which cannot really be used alongside the others.

I find at best that this pushes the Challenger towards carrying a more varied weapon selection for different situations, but more generally that it is mimicking a heavy. I suggest perhaps trying it at first by borrowing some engineered modules from other vessels so as not to invest too much, and to judge its relative lack of movement very bluntly; if at any moment it feels like the lower agility is not avoiding enough damage, it would be as well for one to use a heavy instead for carrying that many weapons while also enjoying the higher mass-lock factor when Glaives take interest during travel.

I think my answer to the titular question is that medium vessels have a difficult choice for the moment. There was a quite good point earlier about mediums not easily being able to do all types of anti-xeno combat, and now the lack of ability to escape a Glaive means that they are faced with being forced to answer Glaive combat first before being allowed to consider anything else. It is unfortunate, but at present the only travel-preserving solution I can see for a medium starship which does not answer Glaives directly is to be at least strong enough that one can survive the fifteen seconds for Exit and Continue.

 

[LuxDez]

but I am wondering if the days of medium ship AX combat are numbered?

The new Thargoids that break Guardian weapons do seem counter-intuitive.

But I do not understand how this applies to other modules.
It has long been known that armor plates improved by engineers are better than those from guardians. Guardian module protection is not beneficial to replace simple module protection with it.
External new modules (as well as a useless scanner) also did not find their application.

Until now, all ships have successfully coped with the hunt for any Thargoid without additional funds, it is enough to protect the modules, make more armor and install AX weapons that are convenient for you.

So far there is no problem to use any ship (including T7) against Thargoids.