You are brave indeed !!!
Are medium ships going to viable for AX for much longer?
- Thread starter tolm
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Yeh, I think with the Challenger I'd be looking at some combination of C1 Mod Plasmas, C3 EAX MC and C2 Mod Shards - but that's a lot of different fire groups to manage. If C1 EAX MCs were a thing I could see how running a couple of those alongside a C3 up top and the 3 Shards / Plasmas down below would work well. Assuming there's a C5 slot somewhere for the stabilizer ...
There is, but you don't have enough power for 6 Guardian weapons (3 C2 Mod Shards + 3x C1 Mod Plasmas).
C1 EN AX MCs would suffer from bad breach damage. C2 already suffer from it...
G5 Armoured/Monstered with a little power management is enough on a Chally (bugged stabz discounted 
) for 6 Guardians weapons : set FSD and cargo hatch on a low priority group (=they will be disabled when deploying hardpoints), leave shields and Guardian modules at home and enjoy ~17MW for guns.
As Aleks Zuno said, problems come when you try firing all that at once : the C6 distributor (Weapons/Super conduits mandatory) depletes in a blink and won't support it all.
Because IMO these plenty hardpoints are not intended to be used together and that's where it is whole part of the build to split fire groups and use weapon types alternatively.
My advice is, be creative here : by mixing Shards' instant shot with Gauss fire delay, plasma/scanner charging time and/or beams/MC continuous fire and so on, you can set 2 or 3 functions on a single button with short push, half-long push, constant push.
You can then make "situation fire groups" with everything you need in a given situation under 2 fingers, and say goodbye to finger-mixing-cycle-through "1 button = 1 item" and "where am I - where is that f* <whatever> gone now".
The two things I obviously always need a separate fire group are caustic sink and limpets, hope we get hotkeys for them some day.
Whenever I get some online time I really have to try that "3s gauss, 3m plasma, 1L beam" build, sounds as fun as devastating
) for 6 Guardians weapons : set FSD and cargo hatch on a low priority group (=they will be disabled when deploying hardpoints), leave shields and Guardian modules at home and enjoy ~17MW for guns.As Aleks Zuno said, problems come when you try firing all that at once : the C6 distributor (Weapons/Super conduits mandatory) depletes in a blink and won't support it all.
Because IMO these plenty hardpoints are not intended to be used together and that's where it is whole part of the build to split fire groups and use weapon types alternatively.
My advice is, be creative here : by mixing Shards' instant shot with Gauss fire delay, plasma/scanner charging time and/or beams/MC continuous fire and so on, you can set 2 or 3 functions on a single button with short push, half-long push, constant push.
You can then make "situation fire groups" with everything you need in a given situation under 2 fingers, and say goodbye to finger-mixing-cycle-through "1 button = 1 item" and "where am I - where is that f* <whatever> gone now".
The two things I obviously always need a separate fire group are caustic sink and limpets, hope we get hotkeys for them some day.
Whenever I get some online time I really have to try that "3s gauss, 3m plasma, 1L beam" build, sounds as fun as devastating
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You don't fire them all together unless you're trying to gib something anyway; by firing half of them until they're empty then switching to the other half (allowing the first lot to reload) you can continuously fire/always be ready to hit a target when it presents itself.
Um, I see what you mean by switching, but I'm afraid with 2*3 guns you'll soon be waiting for WEP to reload before the guns themselves if they have to.
I'm pretty sure I have the ship and the parts ready for assembling, I'll try ASAP and tell ya
With my Chieftain a 5-salvo of 3m shards leaves WEP like 3/4 empty, I don't think I could afford a full second one and sure not a third one - provided the ship doesn't melt before that.
I'm pretty sure I have the ship and the parts ready for assembling, I'll try ASAP and tell ya
With my Chieftain a 5-salvo of 3m shards leaves WEP like 3/4 empty, I don't think I could afford a full second one and sure not a third one - provided the ship doesn't melt before that.
Naturally you'd be using heatsinks at the same time... which partly refill WEP each time you deploy one.
I’d be intrigued by 3 small mod plasma / 3 medium mod shard … except it would suck against Glaives!!!!G5 Armoured/Monstered with a little power management is enough on a Chally (bugged stabz discounted
As Aleks Zuno said, problems come when you try firing all that at once : the C6 distributor (Weapons/Super conduits mandatory) depletes in a blink and won't support it all.
Because IMO these plenty hardpoints are not intended to be used together and that's where it is whole part of the build to split fire groups and use weapon types alternatively.
My advice is, be creative here : by mixing Shards' instant shot with Gauss fire delay, plasma/scanner charging time and/or beams/MC continuous fire and so on, you can set 2 or 3 functions on a single button with short push, half-long push, constant push.
You can then make "situation fire groups" with everything you need in a given situation under 2 fingers, and say goodbye to finger-mixing-cycle-through "1 button = 1 item" and "where am I - where is that f* <whatever> gone now".
The two things I obviously always need a separate fire group are caustic sink and limpets, hope we get hotkeys for them some day.
Whenever I get some online time I really have to try that "3s gauss, 3m plasma, 1L beam" build, sounds as fun as devastating
Maybe the C3 and central C2 would have enough convergence for gimballed AX MCs and then you could have 2 medium shards or 2 small plasmas on the other trigger at any one time?
It would be great for 60seconds. It would be very bad for the remainder...
They don't.
You can check their convergence for the shooting distance (slider) that you find best: Elite Dangerous Ship Anatomy - Alliance Challenger
Ah, yes, great site!
Yes ED Ship Anatomy is as precious as EDSY when it comes to turning an idea into a build.
Thus these hardpoints are way better used for fixed weapons.
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Despite a sore eye and a leaky nose that made my gauss aiming go from bad to worse than ever, I found some time last night to do a planetary CZ with the "3s gauss, 3m plasma, 1L beam" Chally.
https://edsy.org/s/vfrfVcm
Well, one single word : it's awesome.
I felt so clumsy with it and underusing it, I'll have to grow some skill [again] - and yet it was already a monster. It requires skill in everything but I think it must be spectacular in the right hands.
The plasmas are 1-shot lethal to scouts, say goodbye to regen, I loved going rampage head-on into 10-packs, my revenge from U15.00 is done.
I only got Cyclopses as interceptors, no Glaives, and the two weapons set are a perfect match. Beam on, 1-shot the hull with plasmas, 2-shot the hearts with gauss, not even time to return fire, next please. See below, I can bet Glaives are dust long before the guns are decayed.
The distro handles everything just fine as long as you don't shoot the stars, heat management is perfect with the beam powerful enough to save a bunch of heatsink waste on "slow" shooting time.
The ship is fast enough without boosting and provided you keep track of your momentum and don't go nuts on the stick - otherwise it'll stall and leave you a sitting duck for a good Palpatine and 10 seconds face-slapping.
The main problem is... 3 plasmas are way overpowered for a Cyclops
. When fired in range on a Clops' nose they are sure to trigger panic shields - you have to either take a distance or aim at the edge to mitigate damage. Don't try to grind shields with plasmas or it'll be gone before 30s and you're good for an extra one. Don't shoot hearts with them because if you ever miss, shields, bummer.
All this is an excellent forecast for higher variants - unless the stabilizer power bug is fixed, of course. I think an overcharged PP could handle it but I'd be worried about heat then.
Edit in blue to avoid any mistaken nerf -.-
I'm not sure against anything as they are exactly overlapping in their use : they both "splat" their damage and have an AP around 90. Only except on hearts you would see a difference : difficult to aim but lethal plasma shots, easier aiming but partial damage for shards. Besides, both are very distributor-hungry.
The main problem with hardpoints below ships and gimballed weapons is that we pilots generally aim upwards and not downwards, so the belly and nose of the ship are an obstacle to the target. Gimballing works and points to the target but the weapon won't fire... in the nose. You can learn targeting downwards but it is tricky to keep a blind track of where your foe is.
Thus these hardpoints are way better used for fixed weapons.
---
Despite a sore eye and a leaky nose that made my gauss aiming go from bad to worse than ever
, I found some time last night to do a planetary CZ with the "3s gauss, 3m plasma, 1L beam" Chally.https://edsy.org/s/vfrfVcm
Well, one single word : it's awesome.
I felt so clumsy with it and underusing it, I'll have to grow some skill [again] - and yet it was already a monster. It requires skill in everything but I think it must be spectacular in the right hands.
The plasmas are 1-shot lethal to scouts, say goodbye to regen, I loved going rampage head-on into 10-packs, my revenge from U15.00 is done.
I only got Cyclopses as interceptors, no Glaives, and the two weapons set are a perfect match. Beam on, 1-shot the hull with plasmas, 2-shot the hearts with gauss, not even time to return fire, next please. See below, I can bet Glaives are dust long before the guns are decayed.
The distro handles everything just fine as long as you don't shoot the stars, heat management is perfect with the beam powerful enough to save a bunch of heatsink waste on "slow" shooting time.
The ship is fast enough without boosting and provided you keep track of your momentum and don't go nuts on the stick - otherwise it'll stall and leave you a sitting duck for a good Palpatine and 10 seconds face-slapping.
The main problem is... 3 plasmas are way overpowered for a Cyclops
. When fired in range on a Clops' nose they are sure to trigger panic shields - you have to either take a distance or aim at the edge to mitigate damage. Don't try to grind shields with plasmas or it'll be gone before 30s and you're good for an extra one. Don't shoot hearts with them because if you ever miss, shields, bummer.All this is an excellent forecast for higher variants - unless the stabilizer power bug is fixed, of course. I think an overcharged PP could handle it but I'd be worried about heat then.
Edit in blue to avoid any mistaken nerf -.-
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IMHO, I find Mod Plasma Chargers very good for exerting and not so good for killing hearts. They also generate much less heat than Mod Shards, but have higher distributor draw.
As for Mod Shards, they are reasonably good for exerting, very good for killing hearts and are not very demanding on the power distributor, but generate immense amounts of heat.
I do generally only run 3x of each (separately in different builds, never mixed), or occasionally use 2 sets of 2x (either MShards or MPCs), with alternating shots to better distribute heat generation.
Despite a sore eye and a leaky nose that made my gauss aiming go from bad to worse than ever
https://edsy.org/s/vfrfVcm
Well, one single word : it's awesome.
I felt so clumsy with it and underusing it, I'll have to grow some skill [again] - and yet it was already a monster. It requires skill in everything but I think it must be spectacular in the right hands.
I was under the impression that it would be really awkward and have limited use !!
I guess I have to try it out...
The plasmas are 1-shot lethal to scouts, say goodbye to regen, I loved going rampage head-on into 10-packs, my revenge from U15.00 is done.
Might become less ideal for Basilisks. But it sounds interesting indeed...
BLASHPHEMY!!! Burn the heretic!!!The distro handles everything just fine as long as you don't shoot the stars, heat management is perfect with the beam powerful enough to save a bunch of heatsink waste on "slow" shooting time.
The ship is fast enough without boosting and provided you keep track of your momentum and don't go nuts on the stick - otherwise it'll stall and leave you a sitting duck for a good Palpatine and 10 seconds face-slapping.
The main problem is... plasmas are way overpowered
Please don't give FDev any ideas for nerfing CMDRs' weapons. We don't need their usual knee jerk reaction to player enjoyment...
Nice advice!!
It will. Rest assured. Bugs that players enjoy are patched first...
Yeah. In EDSY you can preview that problem.
EDIT: Typos...
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Some interesting thoughts on Chally builds coming it here. I’m a fan of both Mod Plasmas and Mod Shards so I might try the following:
Will require a C5 weapon stabilizer so hull might suffer a bit but you’d hope that’d be enough firepower to drop a Glaive before it did for your guns completely; has an AX MC for helping on Scouts (with either shards of plasmas to finish) and - of course - plasmas for hull / shards for hearts against Interceptors.
I think I still have some G5-ish engineered hull for a Chally stashed away … only got two 1D Plasmas, though … would need to go run some “errands” to pick up a third!
- 3x C1 Mod Plasmas
- 2x C2 Mod Shards
- 1x C3 EAX MC
- 1x C2 TV Beam
Will require a C5 weapon stabilizer so hull might suffer a bit but you’d hope that’d be enough firepower to drop a Glaive before it did for your guns completely; has an AX MC for helping on Scouts (with either shards of plasmas to finish) and - of course - plasmas for hull / shards for hearts against Interceptors.
I think I still have some G5-ish engineered hull for a Chally stashed away … only got two 1D Plasmas, though … would need to go run some “errands” to pick up a third!
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Please post your impressions on the efficiency of that build and how the tests went along.
Okay … first impressions are in …
Firstly, I had to tweak the build a little to get it up and running quickly.
Main difference was using a C2 Mod Plasma in the bottom slot since I don’t have a 3rd C1. It’s not super converged with the top C1s so that was a concern. Also a concern was that this would mean a C1 TV Beam … would that be enough?
Also, I had originally intended to use my G4 Armoured Power Plant but it quickly became obvious it would be be up to the job! So a G3 Overcharged / Thermal Spread alternative was donated from my Mamba. But even with that, I had to drop the AFMU to a 2B.
So, that gives us:
- 2x C1 + 1x C2 Mod Plasmas
- 2x C2 Mod Shards
- 1x C3 EAX MC
- 1x C1 TV Beam
Along with:
- 1x Caustic Sink Launcher
- 1x SDFN
- 2x Sirius Heat Sinks
Turns out my armour was only G4 but I had all the fully engineered HRPs so it’s sitting at about 4300 integrity.
So … enough theory … what’s it like?! Well, I took it over to Rolland Installation in Bi Dhorora in solo mode to make sure I wasn’t getting any assistance from other CMDRs and … pretty darned good!
Straight outta the gate … it’s waaaaay nicer than the Cutter to fly!
The convergence on the C2 and C1 Plasmas is much better than I had feared. With timing, I can hit Scouts with all three at once and for their main job of battering an Interceptors hull they are absolutely bang on. I even managed to take a couple of hearts out with them just for giggles.
Shards are great for the hearts and eyeballing the shots isn’t as bad as I feared. Yeh, they don’t glow in quite the same way but it’s still relatively obvious which one you should be aiming for. The shards are also very good for following up and finishing off the Thargoid after the last heart - yeh, it’s a bit toasty but it finishes them off much quicker than switching back to Plasmas and avoids them panic shielding again.
AX MX is useful for continuous damage against Scouts but I found it was the Plasma shots that were finishing them off. Without a scanner, I have no idea how low they were getting with the MC alone but the combo seems to work well. I like having my Plasmas back!
Finally, the “star of the show” … that little C1 TV beam! Does a sterling job of keeping heat down - at least when using the Plasmas - allowing me to maintain < 20% heat against an Interceptor for longer / using less heat sinks. Once you get the Shards firing, yeh, it struggled but I think anything would.
So … all good right? Well … against a Glaive … er, it’s no better than my FAS … in fact, in some ways it could be viewed as worse since you’ll probably get less DPS out of its Guardian weapons than the 3x C2 Shards on my FAS before they are melted.
I guess I accidentally built for the “old meta” again … oops!
Something to remember with AFMUs is that any module set to be repaired will turn itself off - so you can give the AFMU a low priority so it stays off until you set something to be repaired, then it switches on to do its job and turns off again when you reactivate the module.
Unfortunately, its main job is to repair the 5D Module Reinforcement which takes no power!
It is awkward in the way that against scouts and cyclopses it feels like chasing flies with a hammer. Couldn't check yet but I'd bet (with the right skill, so not me today
) it shows its full potential starting from Basilisks which will take full damage and up to Hydrae for which the 110-140 AP transforms in a big damage bonus vs shards.I edited my "main problem" statement for better clarity for everyone - plasmas are not OP in general.
Heat issue (?) with overcharged PP : what EDSY doesn't show (or I can't read it) is what happens when you use the ship. Firing weapons means heat, okay, but also I guess WEP recharge means distro feeding means heat at the PP efficiency rate, so slower cooling. Low WEP also means TV beam becomes inefficient, and obviously also even more heat next shot. So my guess is the ~+0.1 in PP efficiency stacks into a lot of >20% heat to be managed, and at some point even heat sinks need a reload time slot.
Feel free to try it, and I'd say : more than that. My first thought with cyclopses was "heck, it's unuseable" and my second was "because I can't land a damn shot precisely where it needs to and I keep stalling asking for lightning". I think I'll be letting my other ships alone and playing it for a while from now on, until either I reach my skill cap without making it efficient, or I really find a big problem in it.
Gave it another (planetary) try yesterday evening, and I can confirm : yes, there is at least one medium ship that is still more than viable for AX
Meaning with (very) common skill and on par or better than large facetank&punch boats - with all due respect I guess people who could make an Eagle viable to speedrun a deep-space Hydra still can, but that won't be me.
It's even the most potent and consistent build I've had yet at all. Its limiting factors are 1) Gauss ammo, both the hardest shots to land and the smallest magasine and 2) heat sinks synth timeslots, gotta anticipate that if you don't want to end up with frequent 30s runaway/orbit deadtimes or incur massive damage.
I don't count 3) the lack of a flak launcher - trading a plasma if needed is obvious.
I'm beginning to get the do's and don'ts with cyclopses, patience and aiming it is, then it rolls on as fast as heat management allows. I even ended up smashing hearts randomly during sleep phases as the bugs passed by instead of focusing on one. The only stronger ship I've ever had against them is the Shardconda but only for its 100% gibbing capability.
I got one Basilisk as a first spawn, it popped too fast to enjoy and with far less damage taken than with the shard boat. Medusa, please.
No Glaives again.
I took my chances against a Hydra in the end. Aggroed both and an extra Cyclops together and even in this creepy situation I could stand the ground for minutes, exert a heart twice and injure it - first time for me, before that I could barely scratch the hull. I'm convinced that without improper aggro I'd have it blown to caustic dust without much harm and more ammo than repair R&R.
Meaning with (very) common skill and on par or better than large facetank&punch boats - with all due respect I guess people who could make an Eagle viable to speedrun a deep-space Hydra still can, but that won't be me.
It's even the most potent and consistent build I've had yet at all. Its limiting factors are 1) Gauss ammo, both the hardest shots to land and the smallest magasine and 2) heat sinks synth timeslots, gotta anticipate that if you don't want to end up with frequent 30s runaway/orbit deadtimes or incur massive damage.
I don't count 3) the lack of a flak launcher - trading a plasma if needed is obvious.
I'm beginning to get the do's and don'ts with cyclopses, patience and aiming it is, then it rolls on as fast as heat management allows. I even ended up smashing hearts randomly during sleep phases as the bugs passed by instead of focusing on one. The only stronger ship I've ever had against them is the Shardconda but only for its 100% gibbing capability.
I got one Basilisk as a first spawn, it popped too fast to enjoy and with far less damage taken than with the shard boat. Medusa, please.
No Glaives again.
I took my chances against a Hydra in the end. Aggroed both and an extra Cyclops together
and even in this creepy situation I could stand the ground for minutes, exert a heart twice and injure it - first time for me, before that I could barely scratch the hull. I'm convinced that without improper aggro I'd have it blown to caustic dust without much harm and more ammo than repair R&R.
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Awesome! I’m gonna be taking my Chally out again in a bit too.Gave it another (planetary) try yesterday evening, and I can confirm : yes, there is at least one medium ship that is still more than viable for AX
Meaning with (very) common skill and on par or better than large facetank&punch boats - with all due respect I guess people who could make an Eagle viable to speedrun a deep-space Hydra still can, but that won't be me.
It's even the most potent and consistent build I've had yet at all. Its limiting factors are 1) Gauss ammo, both the hardest shots to land and the smallest magasine and 2) heat sinks synth timeslots, gotta anticipate that if you don't want to end up with frequent 30s runaway/orbit deadtimes or incur massive damage.
I don't count 3) the lack of a flak launcher - trading a plasma if needed is obvious.
I'm beginning to get the do's and don'ts with cyclopses, patience and aiming it is, then it rolls on as fast as heat management allows. I even ended up smashing hearts randomly during sleep phases as the bugs passed by instead of focusing on one. The only stronger ship I've ever had against them is the Shardconda but only for its 100% gibbing capability.
I got one Basilisk as a first spawn, it popped too fast to enjoy and with far less damage taken than with the shard boat. Medusa, please.
No Glaives again.
I took my chances against a Hydra in the end. Aggroed both and an extra Cyclops together
Other than firepower against Glaives after the guardian weapons get toasted, the variety of weapons over my old FAS build is very nice.
But, OMG, the Caustic Sink launchers need a dedicated keyboard …
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