Are PvP and PvE mutually exclusive in game design? Thoughts on the 2.1 update...

[Viking84]

I apologize in advance for another lengthy post, but the recent state of Elite seems to be compelling me to write these things, feel free to ignore it.

Introduction
From reading the forums and watching the live streams I get the impression that the RNG elements of the Engineers was introduced to combat one specific problem. Lack of variety in ship builds due to everyone eventually settling on a percieved "best build", or Meta.

Now, hands up anyone who plays this game for its PvE atmosphere, and who has been bothered by the PvP metas? Anyone? I sure as hell haven't, in fact I couldn't care less if there is one perfect PvP build, as there are so many that work in so many different ways for PvE play. Any PvP build is vastly different to a PvE one anyway so there will never be balance in that respect.

What effect does this have?
Well, you get changes introduced into the game that are designed and geared towards PvPers, which negatively affect the PvE crowd. Examples being:

- Removal of heat sinks from heat sink packs. Avoids silent running Meta, punishes explorers.
- Constant changes (buffs and nerfs) to ship stats. Avoids one ship being overpowered compared to others in PvP, but frustrates anyone who has built a setup they enjoy for PvE usage.
- Balancing of cheaper ships with more expensive ships. Avoids everyone running Corvettes in PvP, but removes any sense of reward and progression for the PvE'ers who have finally been able to afford a shiny new ship costing thousands of times more than the base ships.

And of course the random variation seen in the Engineers stats. For PvP purposes it makes sense, for PvE everyone has such different play styles that all it does is introduce a layer of annoyance between you and your desired build, which would be pretty unique anyway because of the amount of different components available.

What is my point?
I don't believe competitive PvP and PvE can ever happily coexist in a game. A truly competitive PvP experience can only be achieved with tightly balanced outfitting choices, ensuring that multiple configurations each have their own balanced strengths and weaknesses. This ensures that almost all available ships (classes) and outfitting options (weapons/kit) are evenly matched. To do this the single player PvE progression in Elite would have to be wiped out, because any gains in power from one ship to the next will simply resign the previous ship to irrelevance in PvP terms.

If you try to achieve both, like Elite is doing, you end up with neither player type being satisfied. The PvPers constantly request buffs and nerfs to achieve better balance, while the PvE'ers find their setups are being changed and elements introduced that hamper their play and enjoyment while adding no value.

Do I think PvP should be removed from Elite?
Of course not But give up any notion of it being competitive or balanced, forget about PvP leagues in anything but equally kitted ships, and accept that PvP in Elite will be a part of the game world in the same way that violence and crime is a part of the real world. It is not a competition, and it is not balanced, it is just there. If you want to make it fairer for the PvE'ers get some proper security responses going.

There are SO many better games to play if you are searching for competitive and balanced PvP; destroying Elite in an attempt to make it one of them seems meaningless.

For debate
Am I the only one who feels this way? Are there examples of games that balance PvP and PvE and don't suffer from it? Will FDev ever pick a path one way or the other?

 

[A Lien]

I think you may be forgetting the fact, that NPC's will be issued modded ships too. So even (us) PvE players will have to accomodate that into our gameplay somehow. I think if done right, it's correct because it gives us something to do.

But does it give us enough to do and is it going to be rewarding enough? I am not sure.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I'm not raising my hand for sure, never cared about all that meta stuff. Don't agree on everything you said tough, in terms of PvE the bigger ships are very powerful, have seen nothing better then a 2.1 corvette to fight npcs. And a Tradeconda can haul a lot while fighting any npc without much trouble, don't have too much experience with the cutter to comment on him.
The Random nature of the Engineers I like very much, always saw it as something that works very well for PvE but not for PvP. The upgrade always make the ships more powerful and more capable in what you wanna do with them but based on what happens it can give ships some kind of personalitys or even form a relationship with a engineer ("Damn you Elivra, you did something again that increases heat! Felicity is doing that so much better" )

Nerfs and buffs can be annoying sometimes, I agree on that. And while I don't like the heatsink nerf I'm not sure how much it actually matters, always took a bunch of heatsinks out exploring, never felt like I can have enough of them - but always came back with most of them unused or sometimes all of them because I hardly needed them

 

[tawittle]

Let me go ahead and poke a huge hole in your flimsy argument.

"PvPers constantly request nerfs/buffs" which, according to OP, messes up PVE because of changes.

wrong on so many levels.

1. FD has never balanced the game for PVP

2. no patch has changed PVE builds (still multi/pulse with shields)

3. PVE players complain more about balance than PVPers. look at the threads complaining about AI. Look at who's complaining about the huge gimbals. Whenever I see someone complain "silent running OP it breaks pvp" it's almost always coming from a PVE player.

4.there is literally no reason why a game can't have PVP and PVE

Your argument makes no sense because FD does not balance the game for PVP. I have no idea why you would think that. In 2.0 FD buffed HRP to buff small ships (nothing to do with PVP, PVE players were asking for small ship buff), they nerfed SCB because PVE Players were complaining of "magic Duracell recharge potion builds" and buffed heat sinks because of the SCB changes.

none of the changes had anything to do with PVP. FD has said they didn't intend for everyone to start using silent running and that is why they are adding heat/Nerfing heat sinks again.



OP has made this thread to complain about 2.1 (again) and to complain about PVP (again) and I'm typing a response (again) to explain that FD balances the game for PVE because PVE players cry the loudest/hardest on the forums.

 

[Derath]

On paper they can't co-exist but in reality there are so many chaotic elements that really they co-exist just fine, the key is having a system that doesn't have an optimum point and PvE benefits from this as well as you aren't forced to choose something overpowered over what you want to fly.

The key is to lose the idea that the game suffers because it gets balanced for PvP reasons, it may seem like your toys are being removed but really its just tightening the min-max so that options are open. Lets take a ship class like the corvettes in X3TC and look at that for example, you have a representative corvette for each faction that are fairly on the level, the split one goes faster but has worse shielding, the boron one looks fab, the argon ones a good all-rounder etc but there are two that clearly stick out, springblossoms for the terrans go faster than a fast fighter which gives the player borderline invulnerability, and hyperions from the paranids are just flat out overpowered, an order of magnitude more shielding than every other corvette, more cargo space, weaponry etc.

Is it bad that you can have great imbalances like that in a PvE game and not in a PvP game? No, its just a choice - you may have a preference but it isn't good or bad either way its just what you prefer or don't. Elite has done a remarkably good job in my view of enabling PvP balance because its primarily skill based, you can compensate for several ship sizes better than you by playing well and while yes there are best ships if your talking even skill your chances of meeting even skilled players is low because there are so many of us.

I think everything from the Vulture upwards is viable or approximately viable, that being Vulture/FAS/FDL/Python/Clipper/Cutter/Corvette/Conda, I can't speak for the dropship or FGS as i've not had enough time with either to know. That is decent balance, its a constant struggle to counteract the players needling towards the best build/spec but its worthwhile just to keep as many options open as possible imo.

Edit: Also agree that I don't think its balanced with PvP in mind, I think they take vague steps in the direction but I can't see how the freighters would be as bad as they are if any form of PvP thinking came into it , Its a happy side effect of keeping a tight reigns on the ship stats when new ships arrive.

 

[Thetele]

There is no PVP balance and PVE balance there is only one balance. And balance is wrong if one ship/build is the best option. If corvette with all laser build is the best in PVE the game, ships and weapons aren't balanced. All weapons and big ships (python, fdl, anaconda, corvette and cutter) should be equally good choices same with rails, missiles, mines, canons, PAs etc. should be as good choice as pulses and beams. Players say PVPers minmax or abuse Broken builds. Pve players do the same thing and use low upkeep (no ammo), shield tank farming builds.

 

[xondk]

3. PVE players complain more about balance than PVPers. look at the threads complaining about AI. Look at who's complaining about the huge gimbals. Whenever I see someone complain "silent running OP it breaks pvp" it's almost always coming from a PVE player.

4.there is literally no reason why a game can't have PVP and PVE
OP has made this thread to complain about 2.1 (again) and to complain about PVP (again) and I'm typing to a response (again) to explain that FD balances the game for PVE because PVE players cry the loudest/hardest on the forums.

Really really seems a debatable view, I enjoy both parts, and honestly die hard fans of both sides seem to be equally good at it, and equally good at casting blame.

I think it can be boiled down to.

PvP can be abused against other players.
PvE cannot really be abused against other players.

You might say "but PvE affects background sim" well PvE is available to everyone, on equal terms, where PvP becomes a bit unsure in that aspect, because it only takes one PvP person randomly attacking people who are otherwise going about their day doing their stuff, with his PvP focused ship, to annoy and frustrate a lot of players, 2.1 helps this a bit by making NPC's harder so everyone needs to equip more flexible outfits, but yeah.

 

[Kayweg]

While it's been the topic of many heated discussions, imo FD have have found an elegant solution with the three modes of play, while still affecting the same universe.
As a non PvP'er this allows me (and others) to play the same game as everybody else, take part in CGs, influence the BGS or get my name on first discoveries, etc.
I can't do that in any other open world game i can come to think of.
For example, i'm currently playing BDO. As soon as i hit lvl 45 there, i'll be subject to open world PvP, no way around that.
ArcheAge was pretty much the same, and so are many of the upcoming sandbox MMOs
ED "the game" still has quite a long ways yet to go for me, and i'll hang around for that, but ED the "PvP/PvE symbiosis" is the best solution i've seen so far.
Mind you, i'm not one who's hell bend on in-game social interaction, therefor groups and solo work just fine for me.
Others have a different angle on this, and for them the PvP/PvE symbiosis (i'll stop using that word now) is experienced quite differently, i accept that.

 

[Vorxian]

Same could be said for Diablo 3

It is a PvE game, without a doubt.... and it has PvP elements, but Blizzard have made no effort to balance PvE and PvP. Thy know that it's impossible.

Hilarious fun with D3 PvP amounts to who can hit first. You end up with characters with 800k health, and people can hit for hundreds of millions of damage. If they balanced PvP and PvE, then the whole game would lean like the Tower of Pisa.

FDEV should keep PvP, absolutely. But a recent poll was unanimous that PvE was more important. Not saying it will go like D3 (as it is a gear grind), but the cooler shinies FDEV give PvE, ultimately PvP will become more and more unbalanced, and in the end, it'll probably be come too much of an ordeal crunching balancing tweaks whilst keeping PvE fun for all. (it's the 'for all' that is the bite).

 

[Roybe]

I've come to the opinion that PVP will never be something that will keep the PvP players happy. Many have limited their time in the game or have left. Since the game is solely about PvP fights through PvE play...it's time for the devs to embrace this and move on. It's truly sad that PvP cannot be more...but it really cannot be...so let's start expanding on what the game can do...and let the chips fall where they will.

 

[Hexcaliber]

You make the mistake of defining pvp as space combat against another player, you're not alone most do.

You ignore the fact that CG and power play are types of pvp too, your efforts are compared with and opposed to those of other players, regardless of your actually fighting them or not. So while you imagine there is no need for balance in “pve”, there most certainly is.

 

[goemon]

i don't think FD is balancing for pvp. actually i remember sandro steping into a thread saying: it isn't balanced, it isn't fair.

thing is, that players who do a lot of pvp test combat-mechanics/outfits/ships to a maximum, extreme builds, so FD can draw conclusions from it.

i'm no pvp-player, but the same happens in other parts of the game as well. see this bug report of Jmanis: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238057 concerning the infamous 1-T-trading exploit, a way to manipulate BGS influence via selling 1T at a time. now you can say "you shouldn't balance the game against crazy BGS players, who sit in a station and sell a cutter full of hydrogen fuel 1 T at a time!" - but obviously that kind of test shows flaws of design or mechanics. same goes for pvp.

 

[Cosmos]

Re PvP I am a bit concerned about the new weapon mods. It has the potential to remove skill from the equation and turn things into a rock paper scissors situ. I was testing some mods with Harry Potter the other day and my systems were getting owned - all went through my shields which never dropped. I think that dogfighting and piloting skill should always be the most important factor in combat, not the super duper mods we might have.

I have no issue with FD looking to spice these things up but my impression is the mods are a bit OP. I've wrecked others too so am not feeling salty but I think there is going to be a need for FD to do a balance pass after 2.1 gets released.

Off the cuff.. maybe you can only have ONE super awesome mod on your ship at a time. Heat dmg seems out of control atm.

THe clash of the titans event this weekend is going to be interesting..

 

[Vorxian]

i don't think FD is balancing for pvp. actually i remember sandro steping into a thread saying: it isn't balanced, it isn't fair.

thing is, that players who do a lot of pvp test combat-mechanics/outfits/ships to a maximum, extreme builds, so FD can draw conclusions from it.

True, but they shouldn't then throw balancing into the fray, when it hurts other more useful scenarios in PvE.

Think balancing PvP meta is singularly the most destructive thing to benign PvE play though.

Cudos to Sandro for making the candid statement, and he's right to do so. I think FDEV are nailing PvE (they're on the right road), lets just hope the PvP bumps don't generate too many knocks and scrapes. When they nail PvE, they nail ED. Right on guys, keep up the awesome.

 

[Oaktree]

There's no balanced PVP in this game, and by the nature of Elite its impossible. This is more like Predator vs Prey, PVPers vs PVErs. It will never be balanced and both player bases will never agree!

 

[ShimEnki]

If they buff NPCs again to early beta levels then its obvious they are pushing PVers to play PVP style. Why you ask? Perhaps as a step 1 toward CMDRs experiencing the harsh gameplay that PVP wants in open to make it easier to sell the push to open?

Look out PVE and solo players...changes may be coming.

 

[Zelos1983]

I think PvP should be removed from the game. Or at least make two proper tracks with plenty of user-configurable tunables on the server side. (FD needs to release the server code for that)

We are still waiting for basic features such as savegames and meddle around with the cumbersome arcady flight model, and, on the other hand, ship stats are constantly changed without any reason, annoying people further and further.

 

[Rankaze]

I apologize in advance for another lengthy post, but the recent state of Elite seems to be compelling me to write these things, feel free to ignore it.

Introduction
From reading the forums and watching the live streams I get the impression that the RNG elements of the Engineers was introduced to combat one specific problem. Lack of variety in ship builds due to everyone eventually settling on a percieved "best build", or Meta.

Honestly?

I think the RNG elements were introduced as a time sink more than anything else.

 

[ShimEnki]

I think PvP should be removed from the game. Or at least make two proper tracks with plenty of user-configurable tunables on the server side. (FD needs to release the server code for that)

We are still waiting for basic features such as savegames and meddle around with the cumbersome arcady flight model, and, on the other hand, ship stats are constantly changed without any reason, annoying people further and further.

I agree 1000%

 

[Chongo]

I think PvP should be removed from the game. Or at least make two proper tracks with plenty of user-configurable tunables on the server side. (FD needs to release the server code for that)

Private servers and solo should be separated and removed from the BGS.