Are we too set in our ways?

Hi everyone,

I've done a lot of thinking while jumping in the last two months, and I've come to feel uncomfortable about a few things that we, as the explorer community, have made part of our mindset.

We have become obsessed with jump range, and that troubles me for a number of reasons, even if we ignore that a huge part of the galaxy is accessible with jump ranges below 30 ly. Not always easily, there might be some backtracking and detours involved, but it's possible. We might also ignore that undiscovered space isn't far from home, you don't need to go thousands of light-years before you end up in entirely unexplored regions.

But part of the reason why there's still so much to find close by is that we have become obsessed with jump range, and, as a result of that, with very long-range exploration. There is a thousand light-year bubble around colonized space where we make our day trips, there are trampled paths to nebulae, neutron fields, and, of course, Sagittarius A*, but the intermediate, unexciting regions are somewhat unpopular. There are good reasons for that - they are, in a way, unexciting - but it sometimes reminds me of the adage that we know more about the surface of Mars than we know about the ocean floor on Earth.

Yet we raise an eyebrow at (or even treat with disdain) those that sacrifice jump range for armament, armor, shields, mining equipment, all the stuff they might carry for role-playing reasons or simply to feel safe out there. And the funny thing is, they are exploring more, not less - 40 jumps instead of 30 for a thousand light-years means that they visited ten systems more on their route, had more chances to find something interesting, and collected more data.

As a corollary, we are obsessed with fuel scoop sizes, implying that you aren't a real explorer unless your scoop costs nearly twice as much as the rest of your ship. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, 6A.) My trip to Sagittarius A* and back, with a reasonable amount of exploring on the way, took roughly 50 hours. With a 6A instead of a 6D, it would have taken 47.5. Theoretically. While ignoring that there are a lot of objects in range when scooping.

On my way back, I decided to speed run the last 10,000 ly, hoping to be back in time for the Wolf 406 CG. (Didn't work.) It was without a doubt the hardest part of the journey, the moment I said to myself, "darn, I should have listened to the others, reduced my weight, dropped the armor, bought a bigger scoop." I could afford one, now, but looking back again I didn't need it when exploring. I needed it when I was racing. I could afford two of them now if I had been exploring instead. Probably four if I'd taken the economic route. But I'd stopped being an explorer for that part of the journey. I'd become someone who'd travelled to Australia, and when asked about his way back, could only answer "well, there was some water and some land".

Don't get me wrong, I respect the heck out of people who travel to the far end of the galaxy, and I understand that they like a 35+ ly range and the biggest scoop they can get. But that kind of exploration is a niche for a few very brave and patient souls, and the requirements for that niche shouldn't dictate the needs for short and medium range exploration.

The other thing that bothers me a little is that we needed a player killer to be reminded of our complacency. Turning off everything from power distribution to shields (if we even took those with us) never was a requirement, it was a trade-off: Safety from heat damage versus security, like taking no weapons is a trade-off between range and security. Those are easy while security isn't needed, but we've gotten so used to it that we ignored that it probably won't remain that way. Whether the president was eaten by Thargoids or not, there will probably be a day when exploring, even in solo, won't be safe and secure anymore. And meanwhile, we've cultivated habits that will put us at risk when that time comes, and encouraged them in newcomers.

Come that day, we might be forced to explore closer to home, in the more intermediate regions, but that isn't necessarily bad news. A five or ten thousand light year radius around the bubble still covers a lot of stuff we've missed, and those going out farther will be taking real risks and be admired even more for that.

But our instinctive dislike of a ship like the Diamondback (scoops slowly, can't jump extremely far, who cares that it can take care of itself) might be misguided: It might not be the ship low-tier explorers want, but the ship they will need in the future.

I'm just a lowly ranger myself, and I don't want to stir things up unnecessarily, provoke anybody or criticize them for the way they do things. A lot of you have way more experience than me, and I respect you more than you'll ever know for your work. You (and the explorer branch as a whole) are my favorite part of the community. But especially in the last few days, there has been a lot of aggressiveness and One True Way Of Exploring going on, and it made me feel uneasy, partly because I agreed with a lot of stuff on reflex, without checking my premises.

Kind regards,
DoubtOutLoud / CMDR Kuroshio
 
I understand the issue with jump range and like you have had to have a rethink. Yes, for 95% of explorers a jump range of 25Ly is sufficient. However, FD have supplied a galaxy to explore, and some of the systems are out of reach in areas beyond the rim and require large jumps of around 50-75Ly and more. I was thinking maybe a limited use module where you can overclock your FSD say max 25 uses so you can extend your jump range by say 100%.
 
I agree with most of what you say, but ultimately "bigger, stronger, faster" have always been attractive :)

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it is unfortunate that ED launched with ships like the Asp and Anaconda. If the best we had at launch was, say, the Cobra then our expectations would be better set. A new ship like the Diamondback would be received with enthusiasm rather than complaints that it won't outjump the Asp. And when, in a few months time, the Asp got released it would open up a whole new era of exploring.

It's also unfortunate that proper risks for exploring weren't included at launch and, worse still, have since been all but totally removed. We should be needing to balance range with aspects such as survivability & defence. If someone still wanted to run a fully stripped down ship then they would be welcome to do so, but it would be with the knowledge that they would need to be lucky to get home again.

But we can't change what has already happened and other than a complete reboot or a new Elite game altogether (neither are going to happen any time soon) we have what we have. And, to be honest, I'm pretty much burnt out with exploring now. There are still countless billions of stars to discover but they are all just variants of a theme I've seen thousands of times and unless I've got a specific reason - which has to be self-invented since there aren't any provided right now (might change soon, hopefully) - I can't be bothered scanning them. I've been as far 'north' as it was possible to get in my Cobra and now as far 'south' as anyone can do since I am in a stripped down Anaconda. I could try for east, west, up & down but I'm not sure I have the desire. I could pick a direction at random and whilst there would be countless undiscovered stars to see, maybe only 1% of them would actually be interesting and the chances are someone will have been to the area before. Back to the "mile wide, inch deep" criticisms that ED has somewhat justifiably earned. Sorry, getting a bit into grumpy old git mode there ;)

One thing I don't agree with you is the idea that you explore less if you jump further between systems. If you explore 30 systems then you have explored 30 systems whether they cover 100 or 1000 LY. Saying that the longer distance ones aren't exploring as much actually feels counter-intuitive to me. Historically, explorers have been the ones who have travelled the furthest and to the places few have been before, not those who stayed quite close to home and examined all that they could. Both types actually perform equal work, but the public perception has always been that the former are the explorers.

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I was thinking maybe a limited use module where you can overclock your FSD say max 25 uses so you can extend your jump range by say 100%.
If there are going to be longer jump ranges then I would also prefer it were done via some sort of module. It doesn't even have to be limited uses as in your example. My idea was for a module that boosted your jump range by as much as 50% but it would then take time to recharge. A recharge time of 5 minutes would effectively mean that it wouldn't be useful when generally travelling so doesn't make the galaxy smaller like a generally longer range drive would.
 
Yes, big jumps are for travelling, not exploring. I have so far enjoyed exploring places that others might find daunting, and for that I need the range to get there and back in comfort, my exploring is done when I get there, the space between is just an inconvenience. There as many definitions of exploring as there are explorers.
My long haul days are probably near over, as I will be Elite very soon, and will turn my mind towards Thargoids (if there is anything to turn my mind to). I may need a HUGE range for that, or I may not.
 
That's almost exactly my thoughts, Dommarraa. When I am actually "Exploring", I am in a cluster with distances that in no way challenge my jump range so I could do with the shields, weapons, AMFU's, etc. But where I want, no, indeed need, a longer jump range is in the travelling between my chosen exploration spot and where I can sell my data, 'recharge my batteries' so to speak, and decide what I want to do next. By going without those protections, I can reduce my travel time by hours. When I explore without the protection or means to fight back, yes, I know the risks I am taking. At least I have taken as many precautions as I possibly can. I don't let others know where I am, I generally don't announce where I am going to be, and once back in the core systems, I travel in a different manner. My main risks are always going to be at the Nav beacon, or at whatever station I am going to. But that is the same whether I am playing in open or solo, and at least in open I have player BHs to improve the odds slightly. Yes, I have said on this forum that I intend taking part in the current CG [for whatever miniscule reward that will bring me] and am planning on a BBR A* for this weekend, but as people don't know exactly when I will be able to start either, nor how fast I will be travelling, nor what route I will take, I think it highly unlikely that I will be bothered during the process. And if there is another CMDR shrubbery waiting in Sag A* for me, well, they will have invested more time in stalking me than I will have in getting there, so once again, that is a risk I will have to take
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As to the systems 50-75LY away from the nearest star, I can only hope that FD produce a full-on exploration ship - or maybe a new drive that means you can fit a drive in an Asp that will get you there [but only if you strip out everything else, so that the only way you could get there would be unarmed, unshielded]. That way they would give the explorers just what they have given the combat pilots. A place in the galaxy where you can do what you want, after all, you don't hear combat pilots whinging "I was in a CZ the other day, and you just wouldn't believe it - some explorer in an Asp came in and started scanning everything! Just totally ruined everything for me. I'd spent days in that CZ, now I've got to get another ship and start from scratch again!"
 
started to play 10 days ago, went bounty hunting, soon jumped to viper, more bounty hunting. earned a bit more then a million and outfitted that viper for exploring, which is actually the main reason why i wanted to play ed. went for a few short trips until i could afford all the best scanners. then went for longer one - almost 1k ly away. everything was fine except rerouting because of non scoopable stars (1 jump took more than 1/3 of fuel) and slow scooping. so i went back and bought me a cobra. took off.. ok, stats are there, but, personally, nothing else for me... right after few jumps i decided to sell it and go for asp, very poorly equipped one, but it still was a relief after cobra.
diamondback on the other hand is what noobs like me need to start enjoy this game early on, if they are into exploring and shooting things just a bit without too much time wasting in docks, properly outfitting multirole ships
 
The bigger jump range you have, the more efficient you can jump, the less you have to scoop, the faster you can travel long distances.

This, and only this, is my reason for going with a silly no-weapons bare-bones jump range 34 Asp with 64-ton cargo hold so I can use the cargohold slider to set my max. jump range with routing to about 30ly, which is roughly the sweet spot lightyears/hour for this setup when chainjumping.

Of course, if you do it only for credits and fame and stuff, there's no need to go far away. You can find untagged stuff pretty much anywhere within reasonably short distances from populated space. I just like to roam around the galaxy.

Mind you, I started out exploring just fine in my general purpose Cobra, which had combat plating and weapons and things. Jump range was about 20ly max. I never needed the weapons. All in all I've decided to go for full sightseeing mode for now.
 
I had wondered the same thing in another post of mine in Dangerous Discussion: in fact in a few posts this past 12 hours. The obsession with jump length (does that remind anyone of anything? :p) has led to the conclusion that Asps and later Anacondas are the ne plus ultra of the exploration game, and by now the most dedicated of Gamma players will have reached this level. By settling into Asps and Anacondas so early on, it seems there is an air of such complacency that the announcement of a new potential explorer-class vessel will be met with disappointment if it isn't bigger, faster, stronger, and with a higher jump range than the last best one. A few people expected the Diamondback to be the "40+" LY exploration paradigm: one or two of them still feel it should have been.

And then we have the whole "what makes an explorer" argument. Is the unscoopable plane surveyor any less an explorer than the intergalactic edge runner? The asteroid cluster prospector compared to the Earthlike seeker? Does having the biggest range make you the better explorer?

I've said it before: I consider a good exploration ship to be the one you are happiest with, and the one which will fulfil your current mission. I have imagined different roles for exploration (scientific surveying, scouting and recon, sightseeing and photography, prospecting, salvage search and scavenging operations, fugitive hunting, territorial defence, invasion, racing and endurance sport, etc.) and also different routes to take (the core, the rim, the gaps between arms, the haloes, the nebulae, the plane of unscoopables, the neutron fields) so each exploration mission will have a different tone to them, and different ship requirements for the best results.

The reality is that a standard exploration setup seems to have been accepted and used by many, if not most, explorers - simply for the reason that for most explorers, they will not know what to expect out there when making discoveries. Given this set way of doing things "right," it is no wonder that all it takes is one idiot to take advantage of the weaknesses of such a generally accepted setup and start shooting players where they are most likely to be most vulnerable, to act as a stark reminder of where people stand.

When you put it down to the brassiest of brass tacks, all you need to explore is yourself. You don't even need a fuel scoop if you can end your journey at a station with refuelling. With great skill and luck, you can chance upon new astronomical bodies without a discovery scanner (you do it anyway, every time you drop out of hyperspace into an unknown system). Yet all of this equipment will improve your confidence and your ability to do the exploration game and take it to brand new areas of excitement and adventure. Ultimately, the key exploration ingredient is your own willpower and sense of wonder.

Calls for new content and for changes in the gameplay are of course welcome, and if successful will revive exploration for old timers and introduce things for the new players to find too. We shall see.
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
Good post Zulu Romeo!

I hunt Black Holes without the advanced scanner and am going to be fitting up my Asp for my next trip. Why? Because my Cobra doesn't have the jump range and I can't actually get to some of the systems I was aiming for.
 
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I got a discovery for a star very close to my home of Daii, ironically after a 800ly trip outside of occupied space where I discovered nothing. I jumped between two populated systems and bingo.

It has occurred to me that the long jump ranges probably leaves bands of undiscovered systems at regular intervals.

Still it's human nature to look at what interests us and our own backyard maybe isn't as inspiring?
 
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I got a discovery for a star very close to my home of Daii, ironically after a 800ly trip outside of occupied space where I discovered nothing. I jumped between two populated systems and bingo.

It has occurred to me that the long jump ranges probably leaves bands of undiscovered systems at regular intervals.

Still it's human nature to look at what interests us and our own backyard maybe isn't as inspiring?

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Another way is to consider all those overlooked aspects of our neighbourhood and wonder why nobody picked up on them the first time around. :)
 
I'm happy exploring in just about anything, and the new fuel tanks in 1.3 should make it easier to use a lot of previously-difficult ships as exploration vessels. It's frustrating to have to check ahead constantly to make sure that you're not going to wind up next to a T-Tauri or brown dwarf when you have such a small fuel tank that you can't afford more than one or two jumps - that's been my biggest gripe (aside from the constant tedious necessity to defend against pew-pew loonies) with using the small ships.

From a brief session of messing around with it in the current Beta, the Diamondback is a very good ship for the sort of exploration I'm currently performing in a Cobra. And I liked the Courier, too, perhaps it's even slightly superior because of its increased potential for configuration; both of the new ships make decent explorers for me.
 
When I'm out exploring, I'm never in a rush to get to my chosen destination, and hit every system in between. Its rare if I even have to make a 25ly+ jump.
All the small jumps top off my fuel tank, so I never really worry about scooping (which I find quite tedious)

I'm curious to see how well the DB can be fitted for exploration.
 
With great skill and luck, you can chance upon new astronomical bodies without a discovery scanner (you do it anyway, every time you drop out of hyperspace into an unknown system).

If I may humbly suggest that you do need to at least have a scanner *fitted* to be able to discover those close objects. At least I didn't seem to get the proximity discoveries back when I was trading without a scanner attached to my ship?

I may well be wrong, though. It's been a while.
 
It has occurred to me that the long jump ranges probably leaves bands of undiscovered systems at regular intervals.

I was thinking about this during a route plot. If two pilots follow exactly the same route, and have exactly the same Ly jump range, and it is set to max jumping, then theoretically if each is a star behind the other, then they can both get to their destination without scanning the same system......Theoretically....
 
I was thinking about this during a route plot. If two pilots follow exactly the same route, and have exactly the same Ly jump range, and it is set to max jumping, then theoretically if each is a star behind the other, then they can both get to their destination without scanning the same system......Theoretically....

Only if they're equal distance apart. The "clumpiness" of systems, makes certain routes quicker, creating bottlenecks so everyone syncs up.
 
Are explorers to focused on jump range, tricky question, since you need that jump range if you aren't going towards the center, there's quite a few places where long jump ranges are useful, dead spaces where there are few stars, stuff like that.
In those cases people are right to want jump range, however if you are just going to jump around within the core, then yeah you can easily afford losing the jump range in favor of other stuff.

That said, are we set in our ways? heck yeah, its something I realize with myself often in a lot of things, and see in others in how they want to do things, the one thing that I think we are most set in is that either its winning or nothing, there's no real game anymore where its the exciting battle you are talking about, it all is boiled down to winning and losing and the winners lording it over those that lost. And a ton of people do it, and it is unfortunate, and one of the main things I think need to change.
 
Agreed about range, but it's human nature to look for "the best" in anything. That's why the Anaconda is the end game for some (most expensive = best?) the Python is the end game for others (best all rounder?) and the Anaconda again for exploration (or Asp for those who can't afford it).

If there was a ship that was basically just one giant gun, bigger than anything else available, you can bet someone out there would want it, even if its other stats sucked. Same goes for jump range or cargo hold capacity.

And yes, exploration has to be about more than distance. I use a T6 myself, with a 29LY range. It's good enough, and I've enjoyed the roleplaying element of having such a utilitarian vehicle that has no combat ability to it. Yes, I had a roundabout distance goal (took a lazy route to SagA) but my next adventure will be to map out every star in a set of grid coordinates a thousand LY from Sol (which will hopefully be unexplored, I'd love to tag them all ;) )

I posted this elsewhere (cut where appropriate):

As it stands there isn't much to do in exploring except honk the horn, check the system map, figure out what to scan and what to avoid, and move on. This can get terribly repetitive and boring after a while. I kept my interest up by taking videos and beauty shots and making some cool videos out of them (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145524 and https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=137604).


But that's me finding my own fun in a way that's not actually in-game. It kept me going looking for shot opportunities. Without something like that, I'd have been pretty bored by now.


This topic provides a reminder that we need more things to do in exploration. They don't have to be big, but they should be there, they should be varied, and they should provide that bit of extra stimulation that keeps things interesting.


Thargoids - yes, they are coming. Yes, they will add moments of terror to any given expedition... but Thargoids alone won't make exploration better.


More stellar visuals - the devil is in the details - add some rare occurrences things like ice gysers spewing high enough from an ice planet to be seen at a distance, a super-volcanic eruption on some of the worlds with lava lakes, close binary stars that seem to merging, massive excretion disks in young star systems where planets are still forming, accretion disks around black holes, and so on... a thousand more types of visuals could be added within the current model without changing the RNG to include new things - just adding them based on the data provided by the current RNG.


Non-natural finds - imagine stumbling across the wreckage of an explorer ship once in a blue moon. A dead Thargoid ship. The remains of a space station that predates humanity. An NPC explorer that sends a cryptic warning message then flees (what spooked him?). Stuff like that.


Explorer missions - Why the heck aren't there exploration missions set up? For example:
Go to X system, scan, return within Y hours.
Find 3 undiscovered Earth-like (or Ammonia, or whatever) worlds for our exclusive rights to purchase within 1000LY and return
Retrieve explorer Black Box lost in system X, scan system.
and so on...




Believe me, if these things existed, exploration wouldn't only be about reaching X corner of the galaxy first.
 
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