Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Are we too set in our ways?
- Thread starter Kuroshio
- Start date
It isn't
I know, I'm just saying that the OP is pointing out how range has become the only thing that matters, and there's a degree of truth to that. So many people dismissed the Diamondback as an explorer for one reason and one reason only - it had a shorter jump range than an Asp. That's it.
And having explored as much as I have, I can sort of understand that sentiment. At this point I'm getting a bit fatigued because I've seen everything and it's just the same planets and stars in different combinations.
Don't get me wrong, I still love exploration and I have fist hand experience travelling by bicycle through several countries to know that you experience a similar feeling after a while in real life, but I do think there needs to be more unique and rare things popping up as highlights to a trip (again, same as in real life... just when I biked through the hundredth same looking small town I come across one that claims to have their own version of Bigfoot, and a museum dedicated to it, or a bookstore that's made out of an old bus, or a museum for something weird and obscure. Neat!)
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I agree with your sentiment OP.
I am a new player and a new explorer. I do exploration mainly because it is about the only thing about this game that I find interesting, probably because I think it is the only thing FD has done well; mining, trading, combat have all been done before and FD has not done anything particularly interesting with them IMO. Exploration is interesting to me because FD has done something remarkable with it - procedural generation of systems, 1:1 with the actual galaxy; scientifically accurate, more or less; that sort of thing.
I am a new explorer. I only recently acquired a Hauler, a surface scanner, and a decent scoop; still using the basic discovery scanner because I just didn't have the money yet for anything better. I made a trip to a nebula just to prove to myself I could do it. But now, I don't really choose a destination. Technically, I am currently on my way to a neutron star field near the core because a lot of money can be made there. But I am not trying to actually get there "in good time". What I find that I am actually doing is I don't plot long jump paths but rather jump from one star to an interesting nearby star, in the general direction of my ultimate destination (which I doubt I will ever get to). I spend quite a bit of time in each system because I find huge numbers of undiscovered stuff and valuable planets.
I am not really interested in going to the core or nebulae like everyone else mainly because if I want to see them I know the pics are already available on the forums or Reddit and there is nothing to be gained for me by going to those locales. So for me jump range is only about what I need to get to the next star.
Personally, I feel the incentives for exploring are a bit out of whack (gee FD, I hope that isn't infraction worthy):
1. The payouts for exploration are not great relative to what other professions earn (but no one says they should be; I'm just saying).
2. There is the whole "first discovered by" thing. People motivated to be a "first" will find they need to travel farther and farther to find some virgin (is that infraction worthy?) territory to explore, hence putting a premium on jump range. It might also be discouraging to new explorers. So I think the exploration game would be much better off if the "firsts" were removed or at least hidden.
3. It would be good if there was a reason, other than pure curiosity and money, to explore. How are our discovery data being used by the factions? Do they intend to build new stations? Colonize? It would be good if exploration could take part in that process and if we could play a critical and active role in it; maybe even build our own (player) stations. Or maybe alien civilizations to discover. Or wrecks, both human and alien.
4. That Advanced Discovery Scanner. As I already said, I am still using the basic one. I find it works just fine for how I explore. I'll get the intermediate one for sure. But the advanced version, as has been argued in other threads, really is a one-push easy-mode tool. IMO it encourages the "race to a far flung destination" mentality all the while letting people earn a bunch of money for its "discoveries". Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with racing to the core or wherever (each to their own), but I think there should be a trade off for doing so. If all you do is jump to a star, press the ADS button, then race off to the next star, I really don't think you should be rewarded for it as an explorer. The trade off should be speed vs. discoveries (and their associated financial worth) or something along those lines.
Anyway, those are my thoughts as a new explorer and someone newish to the game.
Welcome to the game.
First, yes, despite a price hike a patch or so ago, exploration paydays are still far inferior to general and rare trading over the same period of time. They have different risks, trade being primarily diminishing returns from a well-trodden trade route, traffic, local laws and bye-laws as regards legality of goods, and of course pirates, but on balance if you want to make money, trade is where it's at.
Second, that's an interesting thought. The presence of a First Discovery flag on the revealed system map might well put new players off in terms of their personal sense of achievement, seeing as all new systems found will be new but only to that player - after all, at the time of reaching the summit of Ben Nevis or reaching the South Pole, the first thing on your mind isn't "oh, someone got here first and is rubbing their name in my face right now," it's "yay, this is a new experience and a new thing for me." Certainly, first discoveries tend to be a short-term concern for me at the time of exploring the system, and once my data is sold I generally forget about that system again unless I happen to have to return to it one day. There could be two solutions to your concern: either have the flag toggleable on the options menu, or don't reveal the discovery status until after your data is sold and verified by Universal Cartographics on the pop-up dialog box. I don't know what others might think about this, though.
Thirdly, I'm hoping that exploration-related missions could be implemented, as are others here, but I don't know if this is going to happen, let alone when, aside from general and nonspecific exploration-related community goals which do not specify a certain system or type of discovery.
Finally, the eternal ADS question. Is it too late to nerf or provide a disadvantage to using the ADS (apart from price, which would only really be an inevitably overcome obstacle)? We certainly cannot expect everyone to go back to the BDS or IDS as a matter of principle, because as I stated in another post on another thread, the ADS makes things easier but also far less tedious and frustrating: almost a megaton-bomb solution to the one-inch-nail problem. Prior to the ADS being available, the parallaxing technique to system surveying really did make exploration more of an Art rather than a Science, which was refreshing, but also frustrating and lonely. Indeed, wings of explorers with IDSs, all sharing their data while exploring a single system in different directions, might have been the ideal picture of the exploration game that the creators had in mind.
Yeah, I'll certainly retract that little bit if it turns out it does have a passive role. I'll still stand by the point illustrated in that part of the post that, at its absolute basics, being an explorer doesn't really need all that much in terms of basic equipment. (Not to say I advocate advanced explorers cut off their fuel scoops and discovery scanners to spite their exploration prowess, of course I certaily do not advocate that.
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Pretty much sums up what my stance has always been and I posted something in one of the diamondback threads to pretty much this effect. Range isn't a necessity for exploration. We need something in the 20+ range mainly for dealing with gaps in the stars, but most of my exploration vessels have had ranges in the 25ish. My Great Solo Expeditions don't actually got that far out. 4k I think is the furthest I've been. But it was a 6 week expedition exploring using economic routes and doubling back.
Personally I blame Zulu Romeo.
Actually the range of the jumpaconda I find almost offensive and to a certain extent Buckyball Run* cheapens the exploration experience to me. Cmdr Romeo set off on a weeks long trip in gamma to see if the Sag A* hole could be reached. /That/ was exploration and I'm jealous that I didn't think of it. It's probably the one real exploration mission that will stand as part of Elite Legend long after the rest of us have been forgotten. But the fact that people now do it in 9 hours or less... I dunno, it feels wrong. I prefer my 6 week missions going over every system with fine tooth comb. Well 'cept the iceplanets obviously.
Personally I blame Zulu Romeo.
Actually the range of the jumpaconda I find almost offensive and to a certain extent Buckyball Run* cheapens the exploration experience to me. Cmdr Romeo set off on a weeks long trip in gamma to see if the Sag A* hole could be reached. /That/ was exploration and I'm jealous that I didn't think of it. It's probably the one real exploration mission that will stand as part of Elite Legend long after the rest of us have been forgotten. But the fact that people now do it in 9 hours or less... I dunno, it feels wrong. I prefer my 6 week missions going over every system with fine tooth comb. Well 'cept the iceplanets obviously.
I think there is possibly an element of "I must be a good explorer as I have the best kit" as if the point of exploration was to have the equipment as opposed to actually using it.
There are times when only the best will do, very long runs or remote areas but as many have opinioned you can achieve just as much with a not so focused setup.
There are times when only the best will do, very long runs or remote areas but as many have opinioned you can achieve just as much with a not so focused setup.
I'm not going to write an opus about my take on exploration. Plenty of "known names" have already covered the main points effectively.
All I will say is that my ship has shields and weapons and still has 32ly range. I plan my target destinations and the range helps with covering the intervening distance in a reasonable time. Right now, my focus is XTE and OGLE systems. Plenty of them are already discovered, but by visiting them myself I can get distance readings to other systems and trilaterate the position accurately. They are scattered across the galaxy so I'm missing a lot to get from one system of interest to another.
If FD ever did being in accretion discs for black holes, the XTE systems are the ones people would be flocking to.
All I will say is that my ship has shields and weapons and still has 32ly range. I plan my target destinations and the range helps with covering the intervening distance in a reasonable time. Right now, my focus is XTE and OGLE systems. Plenty of them are already discovered, but by visiting them myself I can get distance readings to other systems and trilaterate the position accurately. They are scattered across the galaxy so I'm missing a lot to get from one system of interest to another.
If FD ever did being in accretion discs for black holes, the XTE systems are the ones people would be flocking to.
I think it all depends what you count as "exploration". I'd describe myself as a "surveyor-explorer" - my trips don't get very far out of Col 285, because with running economical routes and surface scanning at least the HMCs and gas giants in every system, it takes a week of travel to get that far. It's not as if there's a lack of good stuff close in - I did a run out for a few hours tonight to quickly check some systems for the Azaleach goal, and found two ELWs in 60ish systems, one of them only a few jumps from an inhabited frontier world. Plenty of first discoveries still available, too. I think that counts as exploration; I'm pretty sure that some people don't.
Here's my current loadout: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60g,0...7u57u5,307_7_7_6u6Q7_8I,0AA7Sk4zM05U05U2jw2UI
Apart from "it's an Asp" and "it has the two scanners" it's not the sort of loadout people necessarily expect an explorer to have, but in the event of running into something more hostile than a contact binary (watch out for Col 285 ZP-X D1-41, by the way) I have more options than "run away" - even now, when surveying populated systems, there's usually at least one pirate who doesn't appreciate their secret outer planet base being photographed from orbit...
Here's my current loadout: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60g,0...7u57u5,307_7_7_6u6Q7_8I,0AA7Sk4zM05U05U2jw2UI
Apart from "it's an Asp" and "it has the two scanners" it's not the sort of loadout people necessarily expect an explorer to have, but in the event of running into something more hostile than a contact binary (watch out for Col 285 ZP-X D1-41, by the way) I have more options than "run away" - even now, when surveying populated systems, there's usually at least one pirate who doesn't appreciate their secret outer planet base being photographed from orbit...
Which is why I am going to buy one. I want an exploration ship that can stand its ground in battle even if there is nothing currently to battle outside the bubble. Besides, to me it is one of the cooler looking ships.
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Bit short on jump range if you want to try to get as far out on the rim as you can or reach a particular destination way above or below the plane - but for short range exploring with a higher chance of hostiles that looks like a good loadout.
Definitely counts as exploration in my book.
Totally agree on the cycling. You see things that you'd never see if you were in car. When I was cycling around the coast of Ireland, I found out that visiting all the lighthouses was a common goal. argh.. the sights, the sounds..... the Pubs!
One of the reservations being made about the Diamondback is on the combat front: its power distributor seems one size too small for the array of weapons and maybe even the size of thrusters you are able to put on it. While still yet to try out a Diamondback, certainly trying a 3A distributor on my Cobra (which can fit a class 4) means I can get (if lucky) a burst of two engine boosts with all power diverted to engines before having to wait a while to reboost. You might be able to get away with using pulse lasers or multicannons to keep power draw down and so keep the firepower going for longer, but the alternative is to make sure every single shot from your more powerful weapons connects as best as possible - in which case, fixed weapons may be preferrable instead of gimballed.
But anyway, I digress.
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Wow, that was complete gobbledegook to me. Shows you how much combat I've done in this game. But does it make waffles?
The asp makes very good waffles using the air vents at aorund 98% heat. Hot enough to cook them but not too hot to burn them.
Hi everyone & thanks for taking the time for all the answers. A few things that made me think:
Yeah, maybe the Asp is really the ultimate explorer. I still hope for something in the 20 million credits region, but that's because it's what I could afford right now, and I don't do major factions. (By the way, I just A-specced my Asp, including weapons and armor, and it still manages 26+ light-years with a full tank. Is there any other ship in the game that can do that?)
And maybe that's not to bad, because every long-distance journey will remain an achievement, and the galaxy won't start to feel small. Though I wouldn't mind an expanding network of scientific outposts, frontier prospecting and mining stations, defense stations, etc. - stations with dedicated support for different modes of exploration and not much else.
I'm with you on that, and, like I said above, I'd like to see the game's infrastructure supporting these roles - outpost sized stations that hand out (and support self-imposed) missions of certain kinds, and not much else. Far awey, so it still takes a little effort to reach them.
For a stretch of my route back from the core, every third system was already tagged by the same explorer. We must have had a certain lowest... common... math thing. It was funny, I felt kind of lonely when it stopped.
My comparison was my first few months living in Berlin, where I went everywhere by subway. I knew all those little islands scattered around the city, but nothing about what was between them. Until my bike finally arrived.
Personally, my problem isn't the ADS, it's the system map. And no, not that we can select targets in the future, because a) it doesn't help finding the fastest route and b) I suspect my shipboard computer can count as well as me.
It's the clearly distinguishable planet symbols. I'd really love that to be changed to a single dominant color representation ("There's a small blue-ish planet"), so you wouldn't be able to tell apart a blue high-metal content planet from a water world from an earth-like anymore. (Same for gas giants, lose the tell-tale spots). That would provide an element of low tension ("it looks promising"), of disappointment ("bah, rusty metal"), and satisfaction ("Wee! I found Kobol!"). We could have higher payouts for planetary bodies and lower payouts for the ADS scan in that case. (I can live with the basic reward, it is data, after all.)
It was great to hear all of your opinions - and, after two major updates concerned with playing in the civilized regions, I really hope for an exploration focus in a future one.
Stay safe out there, everyone!
Yeah, maybe the Asp is really the ultimate explorer. I still hope for something in the 20 million credits region, but that's because it's what I could afford right now, and I don't do major factions. (By the way, I just A-specced my Asp, including weapons and armor, and it still manages 26+ light-years with a full tank. Is there any other ship in the game that can do that?)
And maybe that's not to bad, because every long-distance journey will remain an achievement, and the galaxy won't start to feel small. Though I wouldn't mind an expanding network of scientific outposts, frontier prospecting and mining stations, defense stations, etc. - stations with dedicated support for different modes of exploration and not much else.
I'm with you on that, and, like I said above, I'd like to see the game's infrastructure supporting these roles - outpost sized stations that hand out (and support self-imposed) missions of certain kinds, and not much else. Far awey, so it still takes a little effort to reach them.
For a stretch of my route back from the core, every third system was already tagged by the same explorer. We must have had a certain lowest... common... math thing. It was funny, I felt kind of lonely when it stopped.
My comparison was my first few months living in Berlin, where I went everywhere by subway. I knew all those little islands scattered around the city, but nothing about what was between them. Until my bike finally arrived.
Personally, my problem isn't the ADS, it's the system map. And no, not that we can select targets in the future, because a) it doesn't help finding the fastest route and b) I suspect my shipboard computer can count as well as me.
It's the clearly distinguishable planet symbols. I'd really love that to be changed to a single dominant color representation ("There's a small blue-ish planet"), so you wouldn't be able to tell apart a blue high-metal content planet from a water world from an earth-like anymore. (Same for gas giants, lose the tell-tale spots). That would provide an element of low tension ("it looks promising"), of disappointment ("bah, rusty metal"), and satisfaction ("Wee! I found Kobol!"). We could have higher payouts for planetary bodies and lower payouts for the ADS scan in that case. (I can live with the basic reward, it is data, after all.)
It was great to hear all of your opinions - and, after two major updates concerned with playing in the civilized regions, I really hope for an exploration focus in a future one.
Stay safe out there, everyone!
Hi, I am one of the diamondback naysayers. You should read my feedback to understand why the diamondback is a worse armed explorer than a pure explorer (and it's a bad pure explorer). TLDR: hybrid kits need even more module room than regular kits, and module room is precisely what the diamondback lacks.
You can explore however you want. You don't have to worry about math or stats or optimality if you don't want -- it's your game and you can play it however you want. But there is math governing everything out there, even if you aren't paying attention to it. And there are facts regarding what ships are good for what role, even if you choose to ignore those facts.
The diamondback is just an undertuned ship for any type of exploration, armed or otherwise. The cobra (twice as cheap) is a better armed explorer, the adder (40k, order of magnitude cheaper) is a better pure explorer.
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Understand your point, use or not use FULL jump range is also a point.
My Sagittarius A* was to see the big black hole, see more what was out there and be back in time for 1.3. So I did it as quickly as possible. 500 to 1000LS plotted fastest routes and about 1100LS a hour (Method a little dangerous).
Real exploring I think should be picking your way around a system and looking for something interesting. So in some cases jump range not important, though clearing the first 1000LS after inhabited space as this area normally well trampled paths.
BUT I do think there are places you should not be able to get to without larger jump ranges for many gaming reasons. And was in the original Elite.
This was my longest trip to date and left me a bit out of sorts with basic skills like docking and fighting. Complacency is dangerous.
My Sagittarius A* was to see the big black hole, see more what was out there and be back in time for 1.3. So I did it as quickly as possible. 500 to 1000LS plotted fastest routes and about 1100LS a hour (Method a little dangerous).
Real exploring I think should be picking your way around a system and looking for something interesting. So in some cases jump range not important, though clearing the first 1000LS after inhabited space as this area normally well trampled paths.
BUT I do think there are places you should not be able to get to without larger jump ranges for many gaming reasons. And was in the original Elite.
This was my longest trip to date and left me a bit out of sorts with basic skills like docking and fighting. Complacency is dangerous.
I'm on my way home, 5kly out with something like 2500 systems under my belt and I've been happy with my 28ly range Python right up until last night when I started speed jumping. Managing 1000ly in ~40 mins now I'm not scanning. My best is a 45 second interval between systems but average a jump every ~55 seconds or so depending on how long the next system takes to load.
Back to the OP, I've still loved the Python for this trip and wouldn't have traded the experience for one in an Asp (maybe a 'conda but I've not owned one yet!)
Back to the OP, I've still loved the Python for this trip and wouldn't have traded the experience for one in an Asp (maybe a 'conda but I've not owned one yet!)
On the subject on jump range and exploration, one of the balancing issues FD want to consider is the impact of jump range on trading. Longer jumps take exactly the same time as shorter ones, with the same recharge time too. So longer jump ranges make for better trading (if I've a 50ly bubble instead of a 30ly bubble I'm going to have more opportunities for high value routes) and especially for rares trading.
With that in mind perhaps there needs to be balancing factors. Longer jumps could just take longer in witch space and/or carry longer recharge times. These won't bother explorers really testing the capabilities to get as far as possible. However that won't benefit those "racing" to distant parts of the galaxy. Another answer, to help the "racing" but not the traders would be to make hyperspace/recharge times dependent on the amount of weight being carried and/or make the difference in laden vs. unladen weight a bigger factor in jump range.
With that in mind perhaps there needs to be balancing factors. Longer jumps could just take longer in witch space and/or carry longer recharge times. These won't bother explorers really testing the capabilities to get as far as possible. However that won't benefit those "racing" to distant parts of the galaxy. Another answer, to help the "racing" but not the traders would be to make hyperspace/recharge times dependent on the amount of weight being carried and/or make the difference in laden vs. unladen weight a bigger factor in jump range.
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