At notoriety 10, each full NPC / player scan spawns an ATR vessel

[Rubbernuke]

A half though out idea, but:

If a player is at notoriety 10, they have to be very careful about being scanned by random ships, security or other players as if they are, an ATR security vessel drops in to hassle them.

The handwavium being that a scan is like a sighting of you thats disseminated across system networks, and ATR being security are hooked into this. Caveat being pirates don't trigger this though, being naughty like you.

The only way to stop this happening is to stop killing and drop below notoriety 10, or keep on killing ( ) and be on the lookout for scans (and be prepared to break that scan or destroy that ship). It would add a layer of paranoia to hardened murderers, who would need to in essence smuggle themselves all over to keep on killing. One slip and the super cops come to play and you have to scarper. It would in gameplay terms be like hiding in plain sight, and that players would have to consider conspicuous ships and paint levels (and be aware of silent running) to continue being a killer.

In developer effort it would be easy(?) since its just an extra event condition (pseudocode if notoriety 10 and player ship scan true spawn ATR target player sort of thing).

EDIT: another clause would be that scans from ships with notoriety and/ or wanted don't count either.

 

[Kotuma]

I think this one change would actually answer a lot of the requests out there to make system security levels matter, provided there's no ATR in non-secured anarchy systems. ATR response time scaling with security level would be cool, but them showing up following any scan by a non-pirate NPC, or any player with Report Crimes toggled on, would give everyone a better sense of notoriety and security level mattering.

Offering increased difficulty for this side of emergent gameplay would be pretty great, too.

 

[Bigmaec]

Would being scanned by ATR summon an ATR?

 

[Kotuma]

Would being scanned by ATR summon an ATR?

I feel like no, even though that would be funnier.

 

[CMDR GRAEME COWELL]

As long aas the cops actually had teeth that would be a cool game element

 

[Misty_Dark]

I like this sort of reasoning! Simply making player choices matter a bit more.... if you want to be an outlaw, you will more attention just for being a badass outlaw. There is nothing stopping you from keep doing what you do, but it will not be easy mode anymore, and you have to pay attention to your surroundings more.

This is the sort of things I would like to be influenced by a systems security level.... ie how fast do the ATR get to you, how many are they.... in high security it should not take ATR to long to get to you... making it far more riskier to be doing this in high security system...but you still can do it...


And for anarchy system, who cares, you got in there by yourself, and most likley you have to get out of there by yourself...

 

[CMDR GRAEME COWELL]

Pirates can still pirate disabling a ship would not raise your murder count would need realllllllll long cooldown to be effective

 

[Rubbernuke]

Would being scanned by ATR summon an ATR?

"Would being scanned by ATR summon an ATR? "

Doing this opens a portal to Raxxla.

But, ATR don't scan you- they pop in, have you already targeted and have weapons drawn.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I like this sort of reasoning! Simply making player choices matter a bit more.... if you want to be an outlaw, you will more attention just for being a badass outlaw. There is nothing stopping you from keep doing what you do, but it will not be easy mode anymore, and you have to pay attention to your surroundings more.

This is the sort of things I would like to be influenced by a systems security level.... ie how fast do the ATR get to you, how many are they.... in high security it should not take ATR to long to get to you... making it far more riskier to be doing this in high security system...but you still can do it...


And for anarchy system, who cares, you got in there by yourself, and most likley you have to get out of there by yourself...

In other threads I kind of went into more detail > https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/some-c-p-suggestions-tweaks-and-ideas-part-2.530119/

 

[Rubbernuke]

Pirates can still pirate disabling a ship would not raise your murder count would need realllllllll long cooldown to be effective

There is an interesting if subtle separation of killing (bounty) and assault charges in ED. True pirates would have a lot of assaults but few murders (which is not helped by other parts of the games design- logout, bendy ships etc). I enjoy BGS killing so my rap sheet would be huge, and my suggestion would make killers have to kill cleanly and quickly.

 

[Bigmaec]

"Would being scanned by ATR summon an ATR? "

Doing this opens a portal to Raxxla.

But, ATR don't scan you- they pop in, have you already targeted and have weapons drawn.

Don't tell me a self-replicating von Neumann swarm of ATR doesn't make you a bit giggly

 

[Kotuma]

Don't tell me a self-replicating von Neumann swarm of ATR doesn't make you a bit giggly

If the stellar forge weren’t static, this could be an interesting way of generating more undiscovered black holes inside the bubble.

 

[Justinian Octavius]

ATRs were promoted as Elite Dangerous' own 'Pinkerton Detective Agency' and if they actually did chase commanders with bounties for murder across the galaxy for their respective superpowers then I think they'd be great and so imho they should just do that.

CMDR Justinian Octavius

 

[Sylow]

Hmm. Good that you started mentioning that it was a half thought out idea. Because it also reads like that.

That being said, i support the general idea. Being a criminal, especially of high notoriety, should feel more like that. The current system very much is an annoyance for the inexperienced player who slips and has an accident, while the "career criminal" knows what he's doing and can easily work around it. There's very limited consequence and virtually no additional gameplay connected to turning criminal.

I still think that merely putting the games mission system to use would already help. We have a number of different tasks, we have the ability to chain them. We know that missions can be triggered by preconditions. In the end, my idea still roughly reads like this:

1. Notoriety doesn't drop off by itself in the run of time. But rather, when you go from zero to one, you 10 minutes later get a mission chain offered to redeem yourself. That chain might keep you busy for an hour, but then you're clean again.
2. When your notoriety rises further up, the intervals to get those tasks increases. And rejecting a mission to redeem yourself will completely block you from receiving another mission for several days per notoriety level you have. So somebody with a very high notoriety rating might only get the offer for such a mission once every few weeks.
3. When your notoriety reaches a certain point, you rather get offers from criminals. First mostly smuggling activities, then add in theft and at very high notoriety also add in murder.

Mind you, the missions would probably not be much different to what we already have. Just maybe, potentially, made a bit more difficult. The actual new step would be to add a bit more meat to the bones. Our missions currently show the technical side of the mission rather well. So exactly the part which many other games work hard to hide is well visible here. While anything just remotely connecting to an agenda or, god beware, a kind of story, is weak at best and often absent.

So really, get a writer on the task. Have him create just a dozen or so different criminal stories. Allow the system to mix and match them. It would add so much to the game. Also yes, i am fully aware that we player will, in due time, figure it all out and consider it "done". That's the way of all content of games. But it would add so much to the flair and feeling of the game, while mostly relying on mechanics already implemented. To unless there's some hidden problems i am not aware of, this would be a way to add a lot to the game while using already existing mechanics and thus requiring comparatively little effort.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Hmm. Good that you started mentioning that it was a half thought out idea. Because it also reads like that.

That being said, i support the general idea. Being a criminal, especially of high notoriety, should feel more like that. The current system very much is an annoyance for the inexperienced player who slips and has an accident, while the "career criminal" knows what he's doing and can easily work around it. There's very limited consequence and virtually no additional gameplay connected to turning criminal.

I still think that merely putting the games mission system to use would already help. We have a number of different tasks, we have the ability to chain them. We know that missions can be triggered by preconditions. In the end, my idea still roughly reads like this:

1. Notoriety doesn't drop off by itself in the run of time. But rather, when you go from zero to one, you 10 minutes later get a mission chain offered to redeem yourself. That chain might keep you busy for an hour, but then you're clean again.
2. When your notoriety rises further up, the intervals to get those tasks increases. And rejecting a mission to redeem yourself will completely block you from receiving another mission for several days per notoriety level you have. So somebody with a very high notoriety rating might only get the offer for such a mission once every few weeks.
3. When your notoriety reaches a certain point, you rather get offers from criminals. First mostly smuggling activities, then add in theft and at very high notoriety also add in murder.

Mind you, the missions would probably not be much different to what we already have. Just maybe, potentially, made a bit more difficult. The actual new step would be to add a bit more meat to the bones. Our missions currently show the technical side of the mission rather well. So exactly the part which many other games work hard to hide is well visible here. While anything just remotely connecting to an agenda or, god beware, a kind of story, is weak at best and often absent.

So really, get a writer on the task. Have him create just a dozen or so different criminal stories. Allow the system to mix and match them. It would add so much to the game. Also yes, i am fully aware that we player will, in due time, figure it all out and consider it "done". That's the way of all content of games. But it would add so much to the flair and feeling of the game, while mostly relying on mechanics already implemented. To unless there's some hidden problems i am not aware of, this would be a way to add a lot to the game while using already existing mechanics and thus requiring comparatively little effort.

I like your ideas for making notoriety drop via missions rather than work. For me the biggest potential problem would be:

There are few penalties for having high notoriety- ironically if you paired my idea with yours it would give most people an incentive to stay clean.

If I kill 20 ships in 5 systems a day, who gives me the missions- i.e. if I do large scale BGS work do I have 5 missions to redeem myself with 5 factions I attacked?

Which factions give me the criminal missions / how does this plug into the BGS? Is it local or bubble wide?

Your system works well for people who are at low notoriety or are criminals but the middle transition period would need to be carefully thought out (too large and people just wallow).

In the end, what does notoriety give you? For your idea to have maximum traction the notoriety levels would need some sort of greater role, along with black markets and criminality in general. I've suggested several times high notoriety alters how NPCs react to you, from traders dropping cargo more to intimidating low end bounty hunters.

For me the biggest problem with notoriety is that there is no difference between being 1, 5 or 10. They spawn BHs equally (or appear to, have not tested) and (currently) it then becomes a matter of time waiting for it to go (or simply ignore it altogether- something that I do). Also, players fall into two groups: the first group are the 'whoops!' group who accidentally blow someone up and sit at 1- I can see this group liking your idea. The other are people who don't care at all and go from 0 to 10 and stay there- they don't care what happens or who comes after them. Its this latter groups behaviour that led to my suggestion- you can go from 0 to 10 in the space of ten minutes, and with my simple idea that has immediate consequences that make something of ATR that fits neatly into a C + P gap.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

I've always thought the noteriaty stat was a little bit of a missed opertunity. Personally, I would have preferred ;-

1. You only get noteriaty for killing other players or Killing ATR.
2. Dependant on the System Security Level, players with noteriaty get interdicted by ATR.
   1. High Security:- Players can't dock at any station, ATR will start to interdict within 1 minute of arrival in system.
   2. Medium Security:- Players can't dock at Stations (but anonymous access to Outposts), ATR will start interdicting within 5 minutes of arrival.
   3. Low Security:- Players have anonymous access to all stations, ATR will start to inderdicting within 10 minutes of arrival.
   4. Anarchy:- No effect (a very scary place for a t9)
3. Players with Noeriaty are shown as red icons on the galaxy map, like your friends are.

I feel the C&P is OK dealing with the Crime against NPCs but it needs a little push to deal with griefers within the game mechanics.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I've always thought the noteriaty stat was a little bit of a missed opertunity. Personally, I would have preferred ;-

1. You only get noteriaty for killing other players or Killing ATR.
2. Dependant on the System Security Level, players with noteriaty get interdicted by ATR.
   1. High Security:- Players can't dock at any station, ATR will start to interdict within 1 minute of arrival in system.
   2. Medium Security:- Players can't dock at Stations (but anonymous access to Outposts), ATR will start interdicting within 5 minutes of arrival.
   3. Low Security:- Players have anonymous access to all stations, ATR will start to inderdicting within 10 minutes of arrival.
   4. Anarchy:- No effect (a very scary place for a t9)
3. Players with Noeriaty are shown as red icons on the galaxy map, like your friends are.

I feel the C&P is OK dealing with the Crime against NPCs but it needs a little push to deal with griefers within the game mechanics.

My angle is that the C + P should be down to the player to decide what is risky and whats not. For example, in one of my other threads I suggested making sec response times based on your location in relation to stations, traffic lanes and deep space (as indicated in your L hand hud panel). So:

Someone attacked close to the main station has security appear almost instantly (because you are close to the sec base of operations)
Traffic lanes are almost instant
Deep space takes much longer due to distance

This plugs directly into sec levels, because then the differentiation is in equipment and ships sent (which can be tailored to better reflect a system in prosperity, state etc).

I don't like automatic interdiction, because it removes agency- if I'm bad, I want to be bad and use skill to keep on being bad

Its why I added the scan clause in my idea, it gives people an extra plate to spin. At some point you will mess up- and an ATR ship popping up will force you to either withdraw or fight...but bear in mind ATR will then become the aggressors main threat and soak up a lot of time.

"I feel the C&P is OK dealing with the Crime against NPCs but it needs a little push to deal with griefers within the game mechanics."

If it takes one scan of a player to potentially drop an ATR on them, thats about as fast as the C + P can get without making it flat out unworkable (IMO) with the current C + P.

The interesting question would be then, would players then attenuate criminality to keep below 10? This would translate into the game by taking a break from killing for an hour or two, or watching how many you kill over a set time. Its a very interesting thought experiment.

 

[Sylow]

If I kill 20 ships in 5 systems a day, who gives me the missions- i.e. if I do large scale BGS work do I have 5 missions to redeem myself with 5 factions I attacked?

I think notoriety is a pilots federation thing. Not sure, it never really was explained in game, but i see it like that. So it could be about any faction offering the redemption missions, based on pilots federation request.

But yes, notoriety at 5 would result in 5 missions to be done. Which would take some time to get rid of.

Which factions give me the criminal missions / how does this plug into the BGS? Is it local or bubble wide?

Giving the criminal side missions, that's indeed a bit more interesting. The easiest implementation would be to have it bubble wide. You're in a system of low enough security and factions with criminal background once a while offer you such missions.

The "plus" version would go a longer way. Have something like criminal bosses through the bubble. Kind of like engineers, but not doing engineering service but providing crimial stuff. But while this would be awesome, there's be a number of issues. Among them what special things those guys would offer to make it worth it, but also to have equivalents on the lawful side to cater for the non-criminal side of the community, instead of it feeling like the game pushes everybody to be a criminal.

This would be a huge suggestion on it's own, so i would not want to go further into it here. Especially as anything of this size at the moment would be years away.

Your system works well for people who are at low notoriety or are criminals but the middle transition period would need to be carefully thought out (too large and people just wallow).

I agree. It would perfectly fine on both ends of the spectrum, while the grey area in between would need a lot of attention and finetuning. It would sure not be the end of developlment. I merely think that it would be a huge step ahead for rather limited implementation effort.

There's a lot more to be done, especially if you want it to be really good. But when you want to put something "really good" into the games current development plan, we might also speak about "in a distant future".

In the end, what does notoriety give you? For your idea to have maximum traction the notoriety levels would need some sort of greater role, along with black markets and criminality in general. I've suggested several times high notoriety alters how NPCs react to you, from traders dropping cargo more to intimidating low end bounty hunters.

In my suggestion, mostly some missions. Which i know that they will in the run of time also grow old. Black markets are a bit of an odd thing. A good smuggler doesn't need to kill people, so he'd never gain notoriety in the given system.

For me the biggest problem with notoriety is that there is no difference between being 1, 5 or 10. They spawn BHs equally (or appear to, have not tested) and (currently) it then becomes a matter of time waiting for it to go (or simply ignore it altogether- something that I do). Also, players fall into two groups: the first group are the 'whoops!' group who accidentally blow someone up and sit at 1- I can see this group liking your idea. The other are people who don't care at all and go from 0 to 10 and stay there- they don't care what happens or who comes after them. Its this latter groups behaviour that led to my suggestion- you can go from 0 to 10 in the space of ten minutes, and with my simple idea that has immediate consequences that make something of ATR that fits neatly into a C + P gap.

Hmm. Sure that things are always the same? I mean, i didn't have notoriety since quite a while. About half a year ago, for an hour or so, i was at 1 and that's it. But when the C&P beta was around, i spent some time there to rack up notoriety. And at least during that beta, i noticed that the ATRs came in within seconds after i interdicted a ship, once my notoriety was over 6 or so.

Has this changed? For yes, i do believe that higher notoriety should come with higher risk attached. And i thought it was that way. I know that a well set up ship can deal with ATRs, but the pressure should be there.

The way you describe it here it sounds like things were made easier again after the C&P patch. If that's true: not a good move in my eyes. But from my perception, what's actually missing for the criminal career is not so much even more risk. But rather the flair attached to it. At the moment there's little of that here. Anybody who has more than just a vague idea of crime in this game can avoid all the consequences with just minimum planing. And think that all the ATRs won't change that. More believeable interactions, along with special goodies like the missions i described probably would help more here.

Of course, that's just how i see it. Somebody who turned away from his smuggler career at some time, as it just wasn't interesting enough, and went the lawful route instead.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think notoriety is a pilots federation thing. Not sure, it never really was explained in game, but i see it like that. So it could be about any faction offering the redemption missions, based on pilots federation request.

But yes, notoriety at 5 would result in 5 missions to be done. Which would take some time to get rid of.

In that example I'd not bother, or only clear what I needed mainly as it could get very complicated keeping track of it all. You would need to have a new mission UI tab to hold them all (which is not a huge hurdle) but I can see a situation similar to when we had bounty claims from random places. But then that is at the far end of the spectrum- for small offenses it would be quite good having some parole officer try to rehabilitate you.

Giving the criminal side missions, that's indeed a bit more interesting. The easiest implementation would be to have it bubble wide. You're in a system of low enough security and factions with criminal background once a while offer you such missions.

The "plus" version would go a longer way. Have something like criminal bosses through the bubble. Kind of like engineers, but not doing engineering service but providing crimial stuff. But while this would be awesome, there's be a number of issues. Among them what special things those guys would offer to make it worth it, but also to have equivalents on the lawful side to cater for the non-criminal side of the community, instead of it feeling like the game pushes everybody to be a criminal.

I think you'd have to go big on this idea and have your engineer level crime bosses (which would be fantastic!), or use whats in game already (Archon Delaine, The Dweller, Dorn, Martuuk and Tani). And I think (personally) that to keep the game dynamic (and to stop the game becoming too static) you do need a slight bias towards criminality.

There's a lot more to be done, especially if you want it to be really good. But when you want to put something "really good" into the games current development plan, we might also speak about "in a distant future".

Very true. Its one of the reasons I stay small / simple in my ideas as they are easier to put in more quickly (or that they stand any chance at all of being put in).

In my suggestion, mostly some missions. Which i know that they will in the run of time also grow old. Black markets are a bit of an odd thing. A good smuggler doesn't need to kill people, so he'd never gain notoriety in the given system.

I don't think it would grow old if done correctly: these redemption missions could be issued from prison ships, and they could have a role in rehabilitation to a point. After that they might send a message saying you are condemned to death / destruction and hand over to the criminal gangs who 'notice you'..in effect the notoriety becomes an initiation if its not cleared within a set time.

Hmm. Sure that things are always the same? I mean, i didn't have notoriety since quite a while. About half a year ago, for an hour or so, i was at 1 and that's it. But when the C&P beta was around, i spent some time there to rack up notoriety. And at least during that beta, i noticed that the ATRs came in within seconds after i interdicted a ship, once my notoriety was over 6 or so.

From experiences there is little difference- you get a bounty hunter on you randomly and you either stop killing and wait or live with them. It only becomes a problem if you fly a less potent ship and you forget about the hunters.

Has this changed? For yes, i do believe that higher notoriety should come with higher risk attached. And i thought it was that way. I know that a well set up ship can deal with ATRs, but the pressure should be there.

The problem is mainly that notoriety caps out at 10- an average BGS murder mission is 10 ships so in a short space of time you have gone from bottom to top missing out the middle part.

The way you describe it here it sounds like things were made easier again after the C&P patch. If that's true: not a good move in my eyes. But from my perception, what's actually missing for the criminal career is not so much even more risk. But rather the flair attached to it. At the moment there's little of that here. Anybody who has more than just a vague idea of crime in this game can avoid all the consequences with just minimum planing. And think that all the ATRs won't change that. More believeable interactions, along with special goodies like the missions i described probably would help more here.

Once you know the patterns and timings its quite easy to know when to leave. All it takes is discipline and being able to spot patterns and opportunities.

Its why I suggested ATR pop up at 10 (since the people you need to ATRify won't stop for any notoriety) and that KWS by security, lawful players or bounty hunters is random and widespread. You have to be on the ball in RES sites, around stations, NAVs etc because one full scan will spawn ATR. But, only one ATR because it gives you a chance to fight them, and occupies you enough to distract you or force you to leave. This is different to how ATR spawn currently (waves and waves) which is a signal for you to go (and to me is too rigid and easy to sidestep).

 

[Sylow]

In that example I'd not bother, or only clear what I needed mainly as it could get very complicated keeping track of it all. You would need to have a new mission UI tab to hold them all (which is not a huge hurdle) but I can see a situation similar to when we had bounty claims from random places. But then that is at the far end of the spectrum- for small offenses it would be quite good having some parole officer try to rehabilitate you.

Oh. One mission at a time, of course. You are at notoriety 1, you get a rather simple redemption mission. If you are at 9, the mission you get is much more elaborate. And it's the only one you get. When you completed the mission your notoriety is reduced by one and you get the next mission. Potentially with a delay in between. The higher your notoriety, the longer it takes for the next redemption mission to be presented to you.

I think you'd have to go big on this idea and have your engineer level crime bosses (which would be fantastic!), or use whats in game already (Archon Delaine, The Dweller, Dorn, Martuuk and Tani). And I think (personally) that to keep the game dynamic (and to stop the game becoming too static) you do need a slight bias towards criminality.

Nah. I don't think we need a bias towards criminality. What we currently need is to get rid of the indifference towards criminality. Minor actions are severely punished, while punishment doesn't really scale up for bigger crimes. It merely adds a counter, but does not much else.

Balance has to be maintained, if something is actually added for the criminal side, something adequate has to be available on the legal side, too. (If anything, the criminal side might be more risky, while the legal side might be a bit more time consuming. ) That way both sides of the coin would be supported. Everybody, no matter if legal or criminal, would gain something from it. But pushing people to crime would be a very bad idea in game like ED.

Its why I suggested ATR pop up at 10 (since the people you need to ATRify won't stop for any notoriety) and that KWS by security, lawful players or bounty hunters is random and widespread. You have to be on the ball in RES sites, around stations, NAVs etc because one full scan will spawn ATR. But, only one ATR because it gives you a chance to fight them, and occupies you enough to distract you or force you to leave. This is different to how ATR spawn currently (waves and waves) which is a signal for you to go (and to me is too rigid and easy to sidestep).

Hmm. My line of thought unfortunately here is that it won't make much of a difference. I mean, i generally don't do BGS things and don't touch massacre missions. But if i'd want to kill plenty of ships of one faction, i'd actually go to a HAZres. No police or anything like that. Also, at least for me, whenever i get scanned, it's a cargo scan. Always followed by an NPC asking how i make my living and that his kids will starve tonight.

It might not be the fastest way to do that mission, but it would, at least according to my experience, completely avoid the KWS scan. So while i see what you're aiming for, i also right away see a way to work around it.