At what distance does going cold break NPC weapons lock?

[Scoob]

Hey all,

So, many a time an NPC has gone cold on me - i.e. dropping a heatsink - and I've lost weapons lock for any gimballed and turreted weapons for a moment or two. For the former, this is fine as I just fire manually for a bit, without the ship targetted - the same as I do if they drop Chaff - as Gimballed weapons settle on forward fire if there's no target of course..

However, I wonder what distance this works at and whether sensor grade has any impact. The reason I ask is because my current Krait Mk II build uses the Thermal Vent Experimental effect, which causes my ship to regularly drop to 0-1% heat levels and the canopy begins to ice up. I thought this should mean that an NPC's gimballed and turreted weapons should temporarily lose weapons tracking, as mine do. The thing is, I often still see NPC's - which blatantly have Gimballed or Turreted weapons installed, based on the firing arcs they're getting - still able to keep hitting me just fine, as if their target tracking hasn't been broken. Note that I'm not affected by the Emmisive effect when this occurs - I check for that.

I wonder how proximity and sensor quality might influence this behaviour. I.e. a ship I'm targetting might go cold and I lose the target when they drop a heat sink 700 metres away - though I can still hit them as previously mentioned. When I go cold though thanks to thermal vent at a similar distance, it appears to have no effect on them. Surely going cold for any reason should have the same ultimate effect, right?

I will say, in my current ship, I do tend to fight up close and personal a little more, so my target will certainly be under 1km away when I go cold, sometimes under 500m. I'm also often chasing the target - i.e. behind them - so any hits they're getting on me must be from turrets.

Note: I always use A-Rated Sensors in my combat-oriented ships these days, I know that extends maximum range, but I don't know if it allows colder ships to be targetted more reliably.

As an aside, sometimes I'm fighting an NPC and, while I maintain target lock the entire time, the firing arc of my Gimballed weapons is massively reduced. I.e. they'll only track my target is a very narrow arc, not their usual quite generous arc. I wondered if this was when an NPC went cold, but at closer range?

Just trying to understand the mechanics of what I'm seeing.

Scoob.

 

[Darth Wonko]

Wow... those are some good observations. I wish I had some input for you, but I'm definitely interested in the feedback you receive from others.

 

[Vedmo]

I don't have any answers for you, but I have been attacking an npc that went cold, and while I maintained my target lock they changed from red to yellow (I think). I always assumed I kept the target lock even as they no longer resolved red/hostile due to being close enough to them, but I don't know for sure what's going on.

 

[sandkid]

If I recall, the codex actually mentions a heat threshold for dropping signature - something like 20% or lower? It's low enough very few ships are naturally near it, even with hardpoints retracted.

The flip-side of this is that we have no idea of the sensors on NPCs. We could assume they are the same class as our ships, but that's like assuming they have limited ammunitions, SCBs and such (they don't). I wouldn't be surprised if NPCs are arbitrarily 'buffed' by their combat rank for the sake of making the AI more deadly as it scales.

All that said, my favorite ship is a DBX (not for this reason) and I've coasted from many an Elite Anaconda while doing black-box recovery and such. I find they can't detect you, silent running, even within just 2km. Granted, it's a DBX - small and extremely low heat signature and buildup - but the concept holds true in those cases.

BUT...

I recall a time when I kept coming out of silent running to hi-wake and, even from 8km away at 35% heat, they immediately boosted towards me and began firing. Even at 15km away they did so. I had to fly, without boosting, for nearly ten minutes away from them in silent running before I got enough distance to avoid mass lock. Even in silent running, they 'followed me' at a slightly off trajectory. But anytime I changed trajectory, again silent running, they would, too. So I suspect NPCs have some sort of 'soft lock' always.

 

[Old Duck]

I've been cold (15%) and have ships come right up to me and just sit there, trying to scan but unable to lock even though they are 10 meters away. I'll actually heat myself up just so they can finish there scan and go away!

BTW, If you shoot while cold, they can lock onto you.

 

[Chris Simon]

OP, I think you are making one mistake in the observation of what it is the ship's scanner actually sees.

It's true that when you drop heat below 20% (cca) that you will momentarily disappear from the scanner (or rather the ship's scanner will lose the resolution on your ship), but that is only a by-product of the mechanic.

What the scanners actually see isn't your ship's temperature but it's radiators. So yes, when you pop a heatsink, the radiators don't have to radiate heat for a couple of seconds, but the proper use of this mechanic is the silent running.
Silent running closes the radiator doors, therefore cutting all outside heat. Even if your ship is cooking on the inside, as long as the radiators are closed, you will be "invisible" to scanners.
And conversely - when you build a ship that is "cool" (i.e. can handle more heat output of your weapons, engines, etc. and stay cooler as shown on your heat gauge), it actually radiates MORE heat. Simply put - cooler ship can get rid of heat more easily, but that makes it MORE visible.

edit: oh, also in case nobody here mentioned it already - there is a thing called auto-resolve. Even if your ship is completely cold (in the proper sense meaning "not radiating heat") the auto-resolve distance is, I think, 300 meters. At 300 meters and closer the ship's systems can target even a cold ship. So keep your distance as well as cool.

 

[Faded Glory]

I'm pretty sure sensor quality doesn't affect gimbal or turret tracking. They wanted to introduce that quite a while back, but dropped it after a lot of forum negativity.

Certainly going cold can cause your lock on a target to drop, but you can still re-target the ship immediately so long as you can see it, and just use select target ahead. Basically, cold / silent running isn't really terribly well implemented (or perhaps I should say useful), because once you are close enough to something to see it, you can target it, as can NPC's. (Not sure what's happening with Old Duck's experience, as if they can see you, then targeting is absolutely possible regardless of heat levels.)

 

[777Driver]

but that's like assuming they have limited ammunitions, SCBs and such (they don't). I wouldn't be surprised if NPCs are arbitrarily 'buffed' by their combat rank for the sake of making the AI more deadly as it scales.

NPC's have limited ammo and SCB's, stop spreading misinformation. They only have limited MC ammo, explined here - This is a deliberate decision and is designed as such because the multi-cannon fire is made to miss far more and generally to improve the combat experience.

NPC's are also able to visually track targets, just like human beings,just because you wen't silent running, does not mean I suddenly can't see you 10-15km away.

as if they can see you, then targeting is absolutely possible regardless of heat levels.)

You can still use silent or cold running to break a lock (NPC security scans/Pirate scans/Missile locks/ PvP Torp locks)

 

[Northpin]

The reason I ask is because my current Krait Mk II build uses the Thermal Vent Experimental effect, which causes my ship to regularly drop to 0-1% heat levels and the canopy begins to ice up. I thought this should mean that an NPC's gimballed and turreted weapons should temporarily lose weapons tracking, as mine do. The thing is, I often still see NPC's - which blatantly have Gimballed or Turreted weapons installed, based on the firing arcs they're getting - still able to keep hitting me just fine, as if their target tracking hasn't been broken. Note that I'm not affected by the Emmisive effect when this occurs - I check for that.

Well, the simple answer is that: you shoot them, they can target you. It doesn't matter if your ship is at 0% heat and freezeing
And it works both ways. If the NPC is cold, but he's shooting at you, you will be able to target and fire back - but your weapons will track over a much smaller arc

 

[Scoob]

I've been cold (15%) and have ships come right up to me and just sit there, trying to scan but unable to lock even though they are 10 meters away. I'll actually heat myself up just so they can finish there scan and go away!

BTW, If you shoot while cold, they can lock onto you.

I expect that's a key point, it's my shooting that makes me cold, due to Thermal Vent. So, my ship being cold via this method seems to negate being cold at all - in the context of my target not being able to tack me with gimballed weapons.

I know many likely use Thermal Vent to compensate for a hot-running ship or perhaps other particularly hot weapons. In my case, I was experimenting with the feature to basically see how NPC's reacted. As it appears that even the coldest ship can be "seen" when its emissions are near zero, if that ship is shooting the ship that's targetting it. Well, this negates the usefulness of thermal vent in that specific scenario.

However, while my active target might be able to still lock on and shoot me with Gimballed and Turreted weapons, surely any additional attackers, who I'm not actively engaging will have a harder time. I mean, it's very common that I'm engaging multiple hostiles at one time - i.e. I've just engaged a Wing of wanted NPC's - and when I'm running cold, the ships I'm not actively hitting with my weapons would surely have a harder time of it. Now that is worthwhile.

Scoob.

 

[znôrt]

When I go cold though thanks to thermal vent at a similar distance, it appears to have no effect on them.

i also use thermal vent and my impression is that i get hit less if i'm cold when fighting multiple npc targets. some shots always get through. but then i'm constantly evading and in a viper , so that might be helping too.

 

[Northpin]

Well, this negates the usefulness of thermal vent ...

Thermal vent is very useful to cool your ship while doing stuff that will cook her. Like spamming rails or using SCB
It will not work to hide you from enemies - for that you need not to shoot at them and get cold by other means (silent running and/or heat sinks)

 

[Archvillain]

I might have missed it but didn't see it mentioned so: ship size also affects how far away NPCs can scan. A cold anaconda can be scanned a lot further out than a cold eagle.

 

[777Driver]

I might have missed it but didn't see it mentioned so: ship size also affects how far away NPCs can hold lock. A cold anaconda can be targeted a lot further out than a cold eagle.

Hey mate, have you got a link for that info. Doesn't make sense, also the first I have heard of that.

Thanks

 

[Faded Glory]

NPC's are also able to visually track targets, just like human beings,just because you wen't silent running, does not mean I suddenly can't see you 10-15km away.

You can still use silent or cold running to break a lock (NPC security scans/Pirate scans/Missile locks/ PvP Torp locks)

Yes, but as with human players, the NPC should (I imagine) be able to re-target you and restart a scan, or continue shooting at you with turrets / gimbals. Perhaps their ability to do so is dependent on their rank... Don't know anything about PvP Torp locks, but I'm sure you're correct

 

[Archvillain]

Hey mate, have you got a link for that info. Doesn't make sense, also the first I have heard of that.

Detecting a large area of space that is slightly warmer than background is much easier than detecting a small area of the same temperature, so it definitely makes sense from a real-world perspective (in scanner context, thermal energy = temp * area), but I haven't been able to find the link, sorry. It's just memory from years ago of a dev discussing station-security cargo-scan priority around stations, he indicated that bigger ships are a higher scan priority for the security forces (because big ships carry more cargo), and bigger ships are also easier to scan (because their size increases the range before silent running is effective). I suppose it's possible that he was referring to size affecting visual range instead of cargo-scan range (NPCs use both) but my understanding at the time was that ship size is a factor in silent running for range at which they can cargo-scan, and my expectation is that sensor lock range is why. I have not heard that size affects visual range.

 

[777Driver]

Yes, but as with human players, the NPC should (I imagine) be able to re-target you and restart a scan, or continue shooting at you with turrets / gimbals. Perhaps their ability to do so is dependent on their rank... Don't know anything about PvP Torp locks, but I'm sure you're correct

Yes they can re-target you. As soon as you dump a heatsink or cycle SR, they lose lock again. It is essentially a massive cheat for smuggling, has not been patched.

 

[Crapulous]

Hi all,

First time posting on these forums, but I've been experimenting with the heat/stealth mechanics in the game and I thought I should share what I've found so far. This is mostly picking up where Frenotx and others left off on this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/research-detailed-heat-mechanics.286628/

Without going into too much detail:
1) Every ship has a fixed heat capacity. The thermal gauge on the left side of the sensor disk in your cockpit is a measure of what your ship's current heat "content" is.
2) Every ship has a cooling rate that is proportional to the square of whatever your thermal gauge is currently reading. The constant of proportionality is NOT the same for every ship.
3) Your cooling rate makes up the bulk of your ship's thermal signature, which is what the game uses to determine whether you show up on somebody else's sensors as a resolved contact (targetable) or an unresolved contact (un-targetable). The other part of your thermal signature is the heat from your thrusters.

Contrary to what I've seen posted in some places, the thermal load listing on your thrusters' info page doesn't actually increase your ship's heat; rather it adds directly to your thermal signature. However, your thrusters only add to your thermal signature while you are accelerating (not sure about rotating in place). ALSO: the thermal signature increase is not instantaneous. Your thruster's heat is determined by: (Thermal Load/1.3) * 0.1 * X ; where Thermal Load is what is listed in your thruster's info page, and X is the time, in seconds, since you started accelerating.

And now for the important part:

4.) The distance at which you drop off of another ship's sensors is... (Thermal Signature/Average Emissions)^2 * Sensor Range;
Where Average Emissions is a property of the ship you are flying and Sensor Range is the Typical Emissions Range of the sensors of ship trying to target you.

As an example, the Federal Corvette has a Heat Capacity of 498, a cooling rate of 0.3 * (Thermal Gauge)^2, and Average Emissions of approximately 9.11.

If your Corvette's thermal gauge reads 20%, and let's assume there is no thruster heat, your ship's thermal signature would be... 0.3 *(0.20)^2*498 = 5.976. Plug that in to the formula, and you get (5.976/9.11)^2 = 0.4303

So if your opponent's sensors have a range of 8820 (4D sensor with Long Range 5), you would become an unresolved contact beyond 8820 * 0.4303 = 3795 m

Other important things to note:
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, shooting someone reveals you to them and their wing for 4 seconds.
Regenerating your shield, through your SYS capacitor, increases your ship's heat at a rate of: Regen Rate * PD Draw (need to verify whether Lo Draw affects this)
The thermal gauge on your ship rounds all values to the nearest whole number. So 20% might actually be 20.4% or 19.5%
As far as I know there is no way to modify a ship's heat capacity or cooling rate
There is an auto-resolve range, under which you will always be targettable.

 

[777Driver]

Detecting a large area of space that is slightly warmer than background is much easier than detecting a small area of the same temperature, so it definitely makes sense from a real-world perspective (in scanner context, thermal energy = temp * area), but I haven't been able to find the link, sorry. It's just memory from years ago of a dev discussing station-security cargo-scan priority around stations, he indicated that bigger ships are a higher scan priority for the security forces (because big ships carry more cargo), and bigger ships are also easier to scan because their size increases the range before silent running is effective. I suppose it's possible that he was referring to size affecting visual range instead of cargo-scan range (NPCs use both) but my understanding at the time was that ship size is a factor in silent running for range at which they can cargo-scan, and my expectation is that sensor lock range is why .

Cheers, NPC security are more likely to scan you if your ships paint is worn out, a few other factors involved like allied status, there is also a hidden variable. Have never heard of ship size being a factor. Thanks for the info anyway, I'll look into.

cheers

 

[Chris Simon]

Yes they can re-target you. As soon as you dump a heatsink or cycle SR, they lose lock again. It is essentially a massive cheat for smuggling, has not been patched.

Cheat? It's an intended core of the whole smuggling mechanic, isn't it?
Being able to sneak in "under their radar" is the whole point.
If anything, the SR has been nerfed to oblivion so it's barely usable.