I honestly don't think there is. No matter what happens, some people are gonna be upset. If they nerf the AI, then you better believe there is gonna be an uproar from people who think the new AI is the bee's knees. There is no 'winning' here, only degrees of losing.
'Attack of the AI' III
- Thread starter Ian Phillips
- Start date
I honestly don't think there is. No matter what happens, some people are gonna be upset. If they nerf the AI, then you better believe there is gonna be an uproar from people who think the new AI is the bee's knees. There is no 'winning' here, only degrees of losing.
Nerf the AI?
Personally, i d like them to operate under the same restrictions as players. If that is accomplished, I dont care how hard they make them. They could literally make elite npcs literally perfect and I wouldnt complain.
The one condition is: I want to have real control over when I meet them, and have to deal with them, and it has to be immersive. Currently it is not.
I think a lot of the git-gud crowd are mischaracterising the complaints of the rest of us. We dont want no-risk high-reward gameplay. Most of us dont mind elite opponents being extremely difficult. We just want some control over when and where we get that kind of challenge, and that control has to seem believable.
Having the toughest opponents in the game show up to rob me of 5k credits worth of engineering mats, 200 ly outside the bubble while being on no quests, not being in PP, and having no bounties on my head, while also being rated harmless, is just plain bad design no matter how you slice it.
I have NEVER seen a pirate under master since I came back a week ago. I v been dangerous, harmless, and mostly harmless during that period (I had support reset my combat rank on friday).
The constant illogical interdictions need to stop.
The bad "matchmaking" needs to stop.
a distant third is "make them use the same rules as us".
We dont need the 201st smartarse chestthumping COD-player-clone telling us how to dodge interdictions, how to high-wake, how to set 4 pips in shields etc. Thats not really what this is about.
Personally, i d like them to operate under the same restrictions as players. If that is accomplished, I dont care how hard they make them. They could literally make elite npcs literally perfect and I wouldnt complain.
The one condition is: I want to have real control over when I meet them, and have to deal with them, and it has to be immersive. Currently it is not.
I think a lot of the git-gud crowd are mischaracterising the complaints of the rest of us. We dont want no-risk high-reward gameplay. Most of us dont mind elite opponents being extremely difficult. We just want some control over when and where we get that kind of challenge, and that control has to seem believable.
Having the toughest opponents in the game show up to rob me of 5k credits worth of engineering mats, 200 ly outside the bubble while being on no quests, not being in PP, and having no bounties on my head, while also being rated harmless, is just plain bad design no matter how you slice it.
I have NEVER seen a pirate under master since I came back a week ago. I v been dangerous, harmless, and mostly harmless during that period (I had support reset my combat rank on friday).
The constant illogical interdictions need to stop.
The bad "matchmaking" needs to stop.
a distant third is "make them use the same rules as us".
We dont need the 201st smartarse chestthumping COD-player-clone telling us how to dodge interdictions, how to high-wake, how to set 4 pips in shields etc. Thats not really what this is about.
Last edited:
wot he sed
Yeah what he said i can agree with ... we sure do need to find the median in this AI issue ... I have found the fourms very useful but since this AI thing it has brought the ugly out of people the game is still impressive but we do need to get back to helping each other out and understanding each other from all sides of the field
Last edited:
This has been an avenue of my own thinking - accumulated assets. I have half-a-dozen Big Ships parked hither and yon. I have... a nice tidy [high] bank balance. I am Expert level Trader. I am a lazy Pathfinder in Exploration. I am Mostly Harmless in combat, which used to mean I got jumped either by low-or-same-level ships and occasionally the "better run, bub" higher ranks up to Elite (some spice for the game) but they were reasonably random.
Now, if I carry a single ton of anything, even in a Cobra MkIII, I am getting 1 or2 jump interdictions constantly and by top-rank NPCs. Certainly they are not matched to my combat rating. Even sightseeing/exploring right now with no cargo, I get jumped in empty/deep space systems.
This doesn't make sense to me. Something is off. Even the uberweapons... got the "purple cannon of death" last night (machine-gun PAs) from a Vulture, a heat-problem-prone ship; I'm lucky the Cobra MkIII is so twisty/maneuverable or I would have been insta-dead.
Added: some extra data points - I am a Lieutenant in the Federation and Baron in the Empire.
Last edited:
Hmmm. I think an obvious point has been missed here.
I'm ambivalent about NPCs who actually know how to fly, how to fight, use utilities and SCBs and run away if need be. On the one hand it's great for combat realism. On the other hand, it's going to be impossible for players who haven't already reached Elite combat rating to do so now that high-rated NPCs know how to bug out. I think that's what players are really peeved about. Before Hard NPCs I had made up my mind to get to the respectable combat rank of Master, then go all out for Elite in exploration. Getting to Master was fun and didn't take long once I'd learned to single out the Deadly and Elite NPCs. Then I explored the Galaxy alone for 6 months. If I'd known the NPCs were going to be so heavily buffed when I got back I'd have stayed in the Bubble getting my combat rating all the way to Elite before the change.
So if I'm honest, what I really want is for the NPCs to be nerfed again for as long as it takes for me to get to Elite combat rating, after that buff away. But that's not going to happen. I think the only answer is to max out a combat ship with Engineer mods. Which could take a while. The life of this game has just been extended.
I'm ambivalent about NPCs who actually know how to fly, how to fight, use utilities and SCBs and run away if need be. On the one hand it's great for combat realism. On the other hand, it's going to be impossible for players who haven't already reached Elite combat rating to do so now that high-rated NPCs know how to bug out. I think that's what players are really peeved about. Before Hard NPCs I had made up my mind to get to the respectable combat rank of Master, then go all out for Elite in exploration. Getting to Master was fun and didn't take long once I'd learned to single out the Deadly and Elite NPCs. Then I explored the Galaxy alone for 6 months. If I'd known the NPCs were going to be so heavily buffed when I got back I'd have stayed in the Bubble getting my combat rating all the way to Elite before the change.
So if I'm honest, what I really want is for the NPCs to be nerfed again for as long as it takes for me to get to Elite combat rating, after that buff away. But that's not going to happen. I think the only answer is to max out a combat ship with Engineer mods. Which could take a while. The life of this game has just been extended.
That is exactly what I did; parked the Anaconda and the Python and bought & outfitted a CobraMkIII for shields and speed. I do get the occasional interdiction; they are still high-level NPCs but at least the frequency is cut down somewhat, even though I am in non-anarchy or low-sec spaces.
However, if I take 1t of anything; mission rewards or whatever, I get interdic't almost every other jump.
I do, though, have assets in the range of +2bil... could this be a part of the problem? The RNG using your assets as a variable?
To summarize my in-game experience (getting from stock sidewinder to cobra and testing various activities) and the impressions from reading forums.
1. ED is and always been a 'oldschool' game. New players are thrown into unfriendly world almost without knowledge on how to survive. Sure, there are tutorials and manual, but to actually 'win' you have to learn A LOT of information from wiki, forums and watch a lot of youtube videos. Some players complaining here are clearly not gone through that process of passive learning. In a sense, they must 'git good', but it's not some in-game skills, it's passive knowledge like 'do X to get Y', 'if you want to avoid X, don't do Y'.
2. ED has perfectly fine gameplay for new players. As a 'twink' commander, I've got from stock sidewinder through hauler to mostly B and D-rated cobra, had tons of fun doing it, and it wasn't in any way 'hard'. Only two interdictions outside of doing missions, both times I was carrying cargo. Easily evaded first (in a hauler), submitted to second (in cobra). It was a novice Viper Mk3, shieldless. I decided to drop some cargo for the fun of it, but apparently not enough, and already lost one ring of shields while messing with UI. After that, I just boosted away. Police appeared in 10 seconds. Escaped with shields still online. If I had beam lasers and A-rated components, I'd torn him to shreds. Also dropped to two 'weapon fire detected USS threat 1' — everything was just as expected: some wanted ship, with police scanning and then attacking. Both NPC were lower ranks, first with Asp Scout, second in unshielded Vulture. Both times I assisted the police, and AI worked just like expected — maybe a couple of shots fired at me, enemy went down easily.
And it should not matter if you are novice with ~3000000 total assets or a triple elite with billions. If you're flying D-rated Cobra in high-sec Imperial system doing lower-rank missions your experience should be the same as above. Any AI above dangerous has no 'reason' to attack you. They should be looking for bigger and juicier targets, so you should be free to go about, occasionnaly killing some dumb newbie NPC that is after your 16t Biowaste 'juicy cargo'. But if you intentionally go to high-threat USS, Haz-RES, CNB, do high level missions — high-level NPC have every right to kill you like a nasty fly. Low-sec, anarchies — it should be a whole different story. But even there, elite pirate lords should not chase you for juicy biowaste. 200t of free gold — maybe, but not for lower-value commodities.
3. Something is clearly wrong for old non-combat players. Some of it is due to old knowledge no longer working. And yes, in that part, we have to adapt. Go out exploring with good shields, thrusters and maybe some armor and beef up jumping range by using engineers. Put some good shields, turrets and mines on a trading ship. Some of it is clearly due to bugs and/or hidden variables that weren't causing great harm before, but doing so now. From reading other posts here and from my experience these are key issues:
a) same NPC re-interdiction after running away. Even if the police was at the scene of crime, and already was firing at said NPC.
b) NPC get overly attracted to PC when they have no sensible reason to do so, like elite pirates going after some 'juicy' cargo that is clearly low value and not worth the effort.
c) NPCs aggression towards PC without any sensible reason. Sure, there should be terrorists and lunatics, but not that many of them. Especially in high-sec systems, where they should be basically nonexistent.
d) overall frequency of interdictions. It was probably tolerable in pre-2.1, where most NPC interdictors were killed by players, but not in 2.1, when running away is more frequent, due to issue a)
e) high-level powerplay ships harass players too frequently. Again, was probably tolerable in pre-2.1, but not in 2.1 with improved AI.
Essentially, if player isn't asking for trouble, he is not getting trouble. Оn a very rare occasion we should run into psychos, terrorists and very angry elite pirates while doing some mundane things and not attracting hostile NPC by doing something wrong, like hauling a full hold of painite in unshielded weaponless T7. And there are enough anarchy systems, haz res, CNB, warzones, high-threat USS and Elite-ranking missions for those who ask for trouble.
1. ED is and always been a 'oldschool' game. New players are thrown into unfriendly world almost without knowledge on how to survive. Sure, there are tutorials and manual, but to actually 'win' you have to learn A LOT of information from wiki, forums and watch a lot of youtube videos. Some players complaining here are clearly not gone through that process of passive learning. In a sense, they must 'git good', but it's not some in-game skills, it's passive knowledge like 'do X to get Y', 'if you want to avoid X, don't do Y'.
2. ED has perfectly fine gameplay for new players. As a 'twink' commander, I've got from stock sidewinder through hauler to mostly B and D-rated cobra, had tons of fun doing it, and it wasn't in any way 'hard'. Only two interdictions outside of doing missions, both times I was carrying cargo. Easily evaded first (in a hauler), submitted to second (in cobra). It was a novice Viper Mk3, shieldless. I decided to drop some cargo for the fun of it, but apparently not enough, and already lost one ring of shields while messing with UI. After that, I just boosted away. Police appeared in 10 seconds. Escaped with shields still online. If I had beam lasers and A-rated components, I'd torn him to shreds. Also dropped to two 'weapon fire detected USS threat 1' — everything was just as expected: some wanted ship, with police scanning and then attacking. Both NPC were lower ranks, first with Asp Scout, second in unshielded Vulture. Both times I assisted the police, and AI worked just like expected — maybe a couple of shots fired at me, enemy went down easily.
And it should not matter if you are novice with ~3000000 total assets or a triple elite with billions. If you're flying D-rated Cobra in high-sec Imperial system doing lower-rank missions your experience should be the same as above. Any AI above dangerous has no 'reason' to attack you. They should be looking for bigger and juicier targets, so you should be free to go about, occasionnaly killing some dumb newbie NPC that is after your 16t Biowaste 'juicy cargo'. But if you intentionally go to high-threat USS, Haz-RES, CNB, do high level missions — high-level NPC have every right to kill you like a nasty fly. Low-sec, anarchies — it should be a whole different story. But even there, elite pirate lords should not chase you for juicy biowaste. 200t of free gold — maybe, but not for lower-value commodities.
3. Something is clearly wrong for old non-combat players. Some of it is due to old knowledge no longer working. And yes, in that part, we have to adapt. Go out exploring with good shields, thrusters and maybe some armor and beef up jumping range by using engineers. Put some good shields, turrets and mines on a trading ship. Some of it is clearly due to bugs and/or hidden variables that weren't causing great harm before, but doing so now. From reading other posts here and from my experience these are key issues:
a) same NPC re-interdiction after running away. Even if the police was at the scene of crime, and already was firing at said NPC.
b) NPC get overly attracted to PC when they have no sensible reason to do so, like elite pirates going after some 'juicy' cargo that is clearly low value and not worth the effort.
c) NPCs aggression towards PC without any sensible reason. Sure, there should be terrorists and lunatics, but not that many of them. Especially in high-sec systems, where they should be basically nonexistent.
d) overall frequency of interdictions. It was probably tolerable in pre-2.1, where most NPC interdictors were killed by players, but not in 2.1, when running away is more frequent, due to issue a)
e) high-level powerplay ships harass players too frequently. Again, was probably tolerable in pre-2.1, but not in 2.1 with improved AI.
Essentially, if player isn't asking for trouble, he is not getting trouble. Оn a very rare occasion we should run into psychos, terrorists and very angry elite pirates while doing some mundane things and not attracting hostile NPC by doing something wrong, like hauling a full hold of painite in unshielded weaponless T7. And there are enough anarchy systems, haz res, CNB, warzones, high-threat USS and Elite-ranking missions for those who ask for trouble.
May sound contrived, but it's actually a great way to balance this. And now I finally have a reason to get my trading rank up
It makes sense in my case at least. Currently only have 0.5B in Assets, and that would very much explain why I am only getting Master level people interdicting me regardless of the ship I am in despite being Dangerous rank. But I think I recall someone saying earlier in the thread that they had reset and still got elite pilots interdicting them. So I think there may be other factor at work.
I am still thinking that low sec systems might not be ideal places for new players and risk-averse traders to hang out.
Yup as in they choose to come interact with me (i've no interdictor)
I got a Deadly Python in a seriously fighty build today - flinging missiles and rails at me all over the shop and a beam turret that kept spoiling my day when I failed to chaff. He was quite fun, though that turret was very unpopular when my shields went. Either way I survived and made a nice bounty but the salvos that guy was firing off would have freaked the living daylights out of me if I wasn't ready for it - I like this game
the others were a relatively normal mix and happily donated their materials to my engineering chestTotally agree with your post but do give folk a little chance - this is an intermittent bug and some people aren't seeing it at-all-at-all. They may not have read enough of the thread to know where we are pinning this down and just respond.... unhelpfully.
It's ok, their time with cmdr ultra persistent will come!
Speaking Anecdotally re being interdicted since 2.1
Apart from the obvious link in that your more likely to be interdicted travelling to an anarchy. I think there is also a strong link as to if you are allied to one or more of the factions at the delivery end.
Ive found that I rarely if ever get bothered delivering to Fed systems even if they are low sec, I suspect that it is because I am allied to the Feds Super power, I am a rear Admiral in the fed navy and am also allied to many fed factions in systems I run missions for. Added to this I operate around Hudsons area, which massively boosts security levels for Fed run systems.
I did note that when travelling to Alliance space even going to a high sec system I was interdicted. I am Allied with the Alliance but have no strong affiliations with any of the system factions.
Apart from the obvious link in that your more likely to be interdicted travelling to an anarchy. I think there is also a strong link as to if you are allied to one or more of the factions at the delivery end.
Ive found that I rarely if ever get bothered delivering to Fed systems even if they are low sec, I suspect that it is because I am allied to the Feds Super power, I am a rear Admiral in the fed navy and am also allied to many fed factions in systems I run missions for. Added to this I operate around Hudsons area, which massively boosts security levels for Fed run systems.
I did note that when travelling to Alliance space even going to a high sec system I was interdicted. I am Allied with the Alliance but have no strong affiliations with any of the system factions.
Low sec needs high traffic to result in noticeable interdiciton rates. Anarchy, I haven't noticed any connection. Not unless it is also low sec. But I have have been High Sec Anarchy systems that are as safe as any Fed system.
Maybe the alliance to minor/major factions is worth looking into? And on the train of though for the benefits of being allied, it would be nice if being green with the police meant they scanned the other ship FIRST
Low sec needs high traffic to result in noticeable interdiciton rates. Anarchy, I haven't noticed any connection. Not unless it is also low sec. But I have have been High Sec Anarchy systems that are as safe as any Fed system.
Maybe the alliance to minor/major factions is worth looking into? And on the train of though for the benefits of being allied, it would be nice if being green with the police meant they scanned the other ship FIRST
Not sure with regards to missions, but if I fly around carrying any cargo that isn't limpets, even if it's just 3t of modular terminals that I'm saving, I only ever get interdicted by Deadly and Elite NPCs. They only ever pilot FDLs and Anacondas. If I have an active bounty in any system, I'll also get (much more frequently than pirates) Deadly and Elite bounty hunters, flying the exact same ships. They will attack in systems where I'm not wanted, giving themselves a 400cr bounty and risk their A-rated combat ships, only to get themselves attacked by the police (and me) all for a 30k bounty. My total assets are around 900 million.
it's not assets.... I feel like I've said this enough times but once more - i have a tenth of your funds ziljan and am just flying around an asp and mostly only get top ranks attacking me constantly if i carry any cargo.
It was amusing until the pattern became so clear. No cargo, no trouble - cargo, 90% Expert and up mostly up. Now I got a good roll on my grade 3 I'm literally going to jettison these modular terminals the moment I take off as it's just not worth the hassle or the illogic of it
It was amusing until the pattern became so clear. No cargo, no trouble - cargo, 90% Expert and up mostly up. Now I got a good roll on my grade 3 I'm literally going to jettison these modular terminals the moment I take off as it's just not worth the hassle or the illogic of it
expert is quite low. When you say expert and up, do you mean all the way to elite?
edit, or at least in the middle.
i mean, it could be some kind of logarithmic scale.
I dunno- it seems like a really bad way to decide pirate level, and its hard for me to imagine it being their design choice. Its probably something else.
goodnight
edit, or at least in the middle.
i mean, it could be some kind of logarithmic scale.
I dunno- it seems like a really bad way to decide pirate level, and its hard for me to imagine it being their design choice. Its probably something else.
goodnight
Last edited:
Yes, that's the usual use of Up.
I'm a novice - i should be seeing a range of ranks around my rank on the whole and only deadly and elites when I've really asked for trouble. About every other one is deadly. Expert is as low as they go until i lose the cargo, then I rarely see Expert.
I am currently Harmless.....and the worst I have faced so far is an Expert. I also only rarely get interdicted, with or without cargo, & most often in low sec or anarchy systems.
EDIT: I have faced a Master NPC, once, but that was by choice (A Target in an RES). I managed to kill him too.....with some help from local security!
Last edited: