'Attack of the AI' III

[Ziljan]

Point was: Why should we believe you when you clain to not have the problems we are facing. What makes you automatically more believable? Why do you get to question our motives and not reverse?

... Because I've posted video evidence of everything I've talked about. Short of live streaming, I'm not sure what else to say. There are also plenty of videos some of them are excruciatingly long that show T6s never getting interdicted while running tycoon and Elite trade missions.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=261641

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=262080

https://youtu.be/HBbnAaD2iz0

Afaik, there is no video evidence of dozens of repeat interdictions of beginner sidewinders being interdicted by Elite pirate Anacondas. I'm not saying this is what you are claiming, but it's just one example of the subjective "reporting" that I find highly suspicious.

 

[frostypaw]

How about we make it less about emotions and more about facts? When people say things that sound fishy, I don't immediately discount it. I ask for more info. If they give enough, the mystery eventually dissipates. Scroll back through the dozens of pages and you'll see it's true.

That's not strictly true.

Your posts have carried on in the "it's all fine for me so should be for you" line in the face of everything, only slowly tempered with observations about you being in all allied-hi-sec space

The game has to continue to make sense out of there and as I've been saying - and hoping you'll listen - it doesn't.

The rate is too high, they are too rabid and it's unpredictable when it will happen. Now a degree of unpredictability is good, a degree of aggression is good - but from my own experiments it's either feast/famine, flood or drought and there's little of the in-between where most would be happy.

Now I'm not inexperienced, albeit somewhat new I've been really enjoying the challenge of the 2.1 opponents far above my rank and they've never killed me so this isn't a whinge because I don't know how to fly, or check system security or fly in SC - heck i was doing the "spiral of death" or whatever and other SC sneakiness out of instinct when it was utterly pointless - but none the less it's being a very inconsistent experience and when you've killed one, evaded one interdiction then almost been killed by the next and had to do the back-forth nonsense to a station with it teleporting in as you drop out despite being far behind you in SC people's patience is going to wear thin

Laws of randomness dictate it's perfectly possible that you're at one end of the spectrum getting lucky most of the time and others are on the harsh end - I don't personally think I'm getting it rough but after experiencing a few of the ultra-persistent NPCs myself I don't think rubbishing the claims so vehemently is doing anything other than causing upset - not everything fits into the "it's just in your head" box. There is something up and while I understand not wanting to rush to every single complainant's side it's probably best we don't mock them with too much of "it's all fine for me and it's probably just in your head" either

 

[Mohrgan]

... Because I've posted video evidence of everything I've talked about. Short of live streaming, I'm not sure what else to say. There are also plenty of videos some of them are excruciatingly long that show T6s never getting interdicted while running tycoon and Elite trade missions.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=261641

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=262080

https://youtu.be/HBbnAaD2iz0

Afaik, there is no video evidence of dozens of repeat interdictions of beginner sidewinders being interdicted by Elite pirate Anacondas. I'm not saying this is what you are claiming, but it's just one example of the subjective "reporting" that I find highly suspicious.

To be honest, video evidence like that can only be considered anecdotal. To make a point there could be selective posting, i.e. not releasing videos that doesn't support your position. (I'm not accusing you of anything, just making a point) And never mind the fact that even those experiencing the issues don't say they are constant. On the contrary, they implicitly say it's sporadic.

In the end everything brought here should be considered reliable information.

 

[Ziljan]

To be honest, video evidence like that can only be considered anecdotal. To make a point there could be selective posting, i.e. not releasing videos that doesn't support your position. (I'm not accusing you of anything, just making a point) And never mind the fact that even those experiencing the issues don't say they are constant. On the contrary, they implicitly say it's sporadic.

In the end everything brought here should be considered reliable information.

Video evidence is at least proof. The hearsay of some complaints is several levels of quality information below this.

I have not personally experienced even a single spore of these "sporadic" Elite interdictions and I have logged about 25 hours since 2.1.02.

That's one hell of a lucky streak .

 

[Mohrgan]

Video evidence is at least proof. The hearsay of some complaints is several levels of quality information below this.

I have not personally experienced even a single spore of these "sporadic" Elite interdictions and I have logged about 25 hours since 2.1.02.

That's one hell of a lucky streak .

I know. But one players experiences can't/shouldn't negate another. The videos are informative, but not definitive. The fact that you haven't been able to recreate the phenomenon, is just not proof. Unless proof that it didn't happen in those captured game moments is what you aim to prove. The bottom line is, everyone's experiences should be valid, unless you can disprove them. And, I wouldn't suggest trying to do that.

 

[sutex]

IF ED , was a true multi player experience , with Proximity voice chat AND! a Galnet style NOTICE BOARD, access in the stations, players/traders/newbie could team up ..safety in numbers

All this talk about interdiction , and the AI been too hard , is only because , we are all just playing a single player game ONLINE, and we don't have ANY BACK UP

No attempt by FDEV , to allow all those faction relationship to work by allowing players too wing up with friendly NPC factions

 

[Mohrgan]

If wings are the solution, what do you do with all of those players in solo? I am not asking for a justification for, or against Solo. That argument is long past. I'm saying that for a large swath of our fellow Commanders. Wings, cannot be the answer against NPC's.

 

[Ziljan]

players/traders/newbie could team up ..safety in numbers

All this talk about interdiction , and the AI been too hard , is only because , we are all just playing a single player game ONLINE, and we don't have ANY BACK UP

No attempt by FDEV , to allow all those faction relationship to work by allowing players too wing up with friendly NPC factions

Join a wing. Check out Inara. There are plenty of people lfg.

And yes being friendly with a local faction seems to make a difference. Some people have reported system security of allied factions following them to RES like an escort and guarding them the whole time. Probably a bug, but who knows?

In anycase, these NPC are nothing a single player couldn't handle.

 

[frostypaw]

Why is proximity voice chat that big a deal?

 

[Ziljan]

I know. But one players experiences can't/shouldn't negate another. The videos are informative, but not definitive. The fact that you haven't been able to recreate the phenomenon, is just not proof. Unless proof that it didn't happen in those captured game moments is what you aim to prove. The bottom line is, everyone's experiences should be valid, unless you can disprove them. And, I wouldn't suggest trying to do that.

Meanwhile, the endless parade of Master and below NPCs continues. I am sitting alt-tab without a care in the world in my FDL. NPCs must be afraid of me?

I even have a 100k bounty on my head I keep just to taunt NPCs into tagging me in high sec. Nothing. No biters. Not even a nibble.


Going to stay AFK to go make dinner and see if maybe an NPC will sniff me out while I'm gone. Maybe catch up on my TNG on netflix.

 

[Mohrgan]

Meanwhile, the endless parade of Master and below NPCs continues. I am sitting alt-tab without a care in the world in my FDL. NPCs must be afraid of me?

I even have a 100k bounty on my head I keep just to taunt NPCs into tagging me in high sec. Nothing. No biters. Not even a nibble.


Going to stay AFK to go make dinner and see if maybe an NPC will sniff me out while I'm gone. Maybe catch up on my TNG on netflix.

What ever.... I acknowledge you as the master of the galaxy. Is that enough?

 

[sutex]

Why is proximity voice chat that big a deal?

I mentioned the chat , so here's the idea

Proximity Chat; a 5km spherical radio bubble, transmitted by all ships, (Carriers are hubs) all within the 5km bubble can talk with each other, closer too each other, clearer the sound, until you fly out of the bubble.

Proximity Chat , should just be that , line of sight , to understand the voice , your voice becomes more garbled the further you are away, until silence when either no radar contact is targeted , or your outside the range of their bubble

Example
You enter a system , its silent unless you happened to jumped in on top of players talking hanging out at that star.

You scan, see radar contacts, but only one of the player contacts is ' garbled voice static' heard, and only when you target the ship in your scan

The only time you will hear another player is when inside their bubble


Full thread here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=260348&p=4027093&viewfull=1#post4027093

 

[Mohrgan]

I mentioned the chat , so here's the idea

Proximity Chat; a 5km spherical radio bubble, transmitted by all ships, (Carriers are hubs) all within the 5km bubble can talk with each other, closer too each other, clearer the sound, until you fly out of the bubble.

Proximity Chat , should just be that , line of sight , to understand the voice , you voice becomes more garbled the further you are away, until silence when either no radar contact is targeted , or your outside the range of their bubble

Example
Enter a system , its silent unless you happened to jumped in on top of players talking hanging out at that star.

You scan, see radar contacts, but only one of the player contacts is ' garbled voice static' heard, and only when you target the ship in your scan

The only time you will hear another player is when inside their bubble


Full thread here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=260348&p=4027093&viewfull=1#post4027093

I'm not all that excited about the idea of having someone I don't know babbling in my headset. This feature would send me immediately searching for the disable button.

 

[frostypaw]

I mentioned the chat , so here's the idea

I cannot see how this has any relevance. Would possibly be a cute audio feature, but can't imagine it making the slightest bit of difference to how difficult the NPCs are to deal with

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

I'm not all that excited about the idea of having someone I don't know babbling in my headset. This feature would send me immediately searching for the disable button.

wedding barge anyone?

 

[sutex]

I'm not all that excited about the idea of having someone I don't know babbling in my headset. This feature would send me immediately searching for the disable button.

Or you could just fly away , space is big , and its only a 5km bubble

 

[Mohrgan]

Or you could just fly away , space is big , and its only a 5km bubble

Unless the fellow persists in being in my proximity. Like when someone wants to let the atmosphere out of my ship.

 

[sutex]

I cannot see how this has any relevance. Would possibly be a cute audio feature, but can't imagine it making the slightest bit of difference to how difficult the NPCs are to deal with

You alone , doing your thing THEN interdiction , and your fighting too survive , If your in OPEN , chances are you may spot another player

Now typing in chat 'HELP ME OUT' , while pushing every button you can too keep your ship alive , is not going too happen VOICE is faster easier , when your in a blind panic

 

[@CEHIGH]

My main account is in deep space. My alt account (which I shouldn't have to have btw - still waiting on those Kickstarter promised extra Commander slots, Frontier ) is in the bubble.

Since 2.1 my Vulture-flying alt has ranked up from Competent to Expert. I haven't lost a ship while doing that either. I've learned that smaller ships are now a waste of my time to fight because they all seem to possess Enhanced Performance Thrusters and so take too long to kill to be worthwhile. Big ships (which don't have the new overpowered small engines of course) can still be outmanoeuvred however, and so make for quicker targets.

I'll add one more thing - my alt account is 1.6 and I will not be buying Horizons for it. I have a lifetime pass on my main, and as I said above, it's bad enough that I had to buy a second account to have a second Commander anyway, so that's quite enough expense thank you.

So, having said that I haven't lost a ship since 2.1, have gained a combat rank, don't have (nor can ever get) Engineer mods on that alt Vulture, but have been fighting (and beating) Engineer-modded NPCs on what is therefore a completely unbalanced playing field...what do I think of the new A.I.?

It's too hard.

No, not for me - as I just stated, I seem to be able to survive it (even though I have to say I now find combat more irritating by an order of magnitude).
But there's more than just me playing this game...

I've been playing space combat games since the original Elite in 1984.
But I am not a combat machine. I'm human and am therefore capable of using my own experiences to extrapolate how things like changes to difficulty can affect players who aren't like me.

The AI is simply now too hard for a lot of players. And this is not whining on the part those players - I have read many heartfelt, considered posts on this forum from players who suddenly feel completely out of their depth and are asking for advice on how to cope. Sometimes they can adapt, but just as often, they cannot. Some people simply are not as good at combat as others, and simply telling them to "git gud" is like shouting "learn to swim, man!" at someone who's drowning because they can't swim

For every player whose love for Elite is lost through frustration caused by the new AI, that's one piece of ourselves we've lost as the Elite community.

For my own part, I don't find the new AI too tough, but I do find it less intelligent, and possessed of a limited range of overpowered gear that it uses with superhuman efficiency. Basically, I find it disappointing and annoying.

But if my combat skills were less, then I know (because humans, empathy, you see... ) I would find it not only annoying, but frustrating, way too hard, and it could well be the thing that made me leave the game entirely.

I won't be leaving - but others will. And I don't want them to, because we are a community.

It all comes down to a simple equation :

If you make the AI easier, it won't affect me at all. But if you keep the AI this hard, it will affect them.

Hear Hear . More empathy needed less I have the biggest epeen and all of you suck attitudes please

 

[frostypaw]

You alone , doing your thing THEN interdiction , and your fighting too survive , If your in OPEN , chances are you may spot another player

Now typing in chat 'HELP ME OUT' , while pushing every button you can too keep your ship alive , is not going too happen VOICE is faster easier , when your in a blind panic

Next time you're interdicted anywhere have a look how far away other cmdrs are

it's not 5km, it's more likely to be 500,000km