'Attack of the AI' III

[Becks]

Vindicator Jones seems to read this thread (and a few more with similar topics):

https://youtu.be/ZzRLt0Zm8Nk

This video basically proves 2 things: Firstly there definitely *are* chain interdictions with Elite NPCs. Secondly the ridiculous (or should I say "sad"?) shape the game currently is in if you watch *how* he counteract these "dangerous" ships and how stupid even Elite NPCs currently are. Dangerous but no sign of artificial intelligence.

He has a lot of fun obviously, hope you will enjoy this video too. LOL

I have no problem with Elite interdictions. Boosted my Combat rank quite a bit since 2.1.

Yeah even the Deadly/Elite rated ships aren't really hard to defeat if one has the right ship and knows what they're doing. But they've considerably improved in almost every way and it's actually more fun now to fight with the higher ranked NPCs (imo).

Maybe they should make them even harder for combatfitted players with high combatrank.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Maybe they should make them even harder for combatfitted players with high combatrank.

Elite combat rank is only really a measure of time played and the ability to defeat Expert NPCs.

 

[Becks]

Elite combat rank is only really a measure of time played and the ability to defeat Expert NPCs.

Well if one is Elite in Combat he/she should at least be able to defeat Elite/Deadly NPCs
If not ... then they don't really deserve the Combat Elite, hmm?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well if one is Elite in Combat he/she should at least be able to defeat Elite/Deadly NPCs
If not ... then they don't really deserve the Combat Elite, hmm?

That's not the way the kill-credit system works. At Deadly, destroying an Expert NPC counts for 0.25 kills - it's just a matter of time until the player reaches Elite....

 

[Becks]

That's not the way the kill-credit system works. At Deadly, destroying an Expert NPC counts for 0.25 kills - it's just a matter of time until the player reaches Elite....

I know. Still doesn't change my (a bit offtopic) opinion.

Ok, *if* you fight them in the traditional way. But watch how stupid the AI runs happily into the new OP mines (I'm pretty sure they either will be massively nerfed or, more likely, the AI will be modified to recognize mines and attack much slower ships (like in the video) from a wider angle.

I hope that they do not nerf the mines and instead modifiy the AI to recognize/counter (can one counter mines, I've never used them much) them.

But I think you don't get the point of this thread. It's not about you or how someone else can deal with Elite ships or not, it's mainly about how different the NPC distribution comes for different pilots while some of us are still struggling to believe each other. It's not so much about personal opinions but rather to nail down a fundamental flaw in the game that leads to a situation where we all seem to play virtually different versions of the game.

That's not my personal opinion (apart from the first line). It's what I experienced in the two weeks since launch.

I do agree that the AI still needs a lot of love, since there are still major flaws.

A few examples are how the NPCs get matched to players, the chain interdictions of Elite/Deadly NPCs (even if I like them, I'm pretty sure a whole lot of people don't) and their use of SCBs (which is incredible stupid against bigger ships and makes them kinda undefeatable if you're in a smaller ship without engineered weapons.

I believe what Ziljan says about his very own experience simply because I make similar experiences. Though the video of V.J. proves that people who talk about chain interdictions of Elite NPCs are not lying. It also proves that the current AI is in a very poor shape: dangerous weapons (+ramming) but stupid like a loaf of bread.

I have only read a small part of the thread due to limited time. Could you link Ziljans post?

 

[Ziljan]

Ok, *if* you fight them in the traditional way. But watch how stupid the AI runs happily into the new OP mines (I'm pretty sure they either will be massively nerfed or, more likely, the AI will be modified to recognize mines and attack much slower ships (like in the video) from a wider angle.... Though the video of V.J. proves that people who talk about chain interdictions of Elite NPCs are not lying. It also proves that the current AI is in a very poor shape: dangerous weapons (+ramming) but stupid like a loaf of bread.

VJ's video shows that the Elite interdictions are real - in lawless space, which somewhat validates what I've been saying about high security systems. I agree that it also shows that mines are currently OP if they can strip down big and small Elite ships with ease. Or more precisely that the AI at all ranks are dunces when it comes to Mines. Not sure how they could change this fact without making mines useless. Ok not entirely true. I have some ideas, but they would involve mines becomes AOE cloud attacks and not just point sources. Or at least magnetic within a certain range.

On a brighter note, I decided to take my FDL on a little tour of the bubble, outside of the safe comfy set of systems controlled by my minor faction. And I found that there is a nicer degree of variability than could be found in my previous cozy sector of space. I haven't found any systems with Elite outlaws yet, but I feel like I am getting closer. Found a couple systems on my way to LYR space (through the very center of the bubble) that have a couple dangerous NPCs, mostly power play agents and a sprinkling of dangerous NPCs. Things are looking up! Maybe I'll happen upon one of these systems that has a real set of offerings in SC?

Maybe I should check out Archon Delaines territory? Or the chaotic borderlands between the Feds/Alliance/Empire?

I am becoming increasingly convinced that the "dangerousness" quotient is very much region and system-security specific. Will have to test by visiting dozens of systems in every direction from Sol and noting the NPCs I see.

 

[frostypaw]

Hear hear. Zil accepts his own viewpoint as gospel, and anybody else's as highly suspect.

He isn't trying to debate or solve anything, just defending his own position.

Worthless to debate this type. You could make more headway more quickly on the lavian brandy.

This sounds so perfectly like it was spoken by your avatar I just had to comment probably while smoking a gauloise and sipping said brandy

this post may make no sense in the future.

 

[Ziljan]

I have no problem with Elite interdictions. Boosted my Combat rank quite a bit since 2.1.

Yeah even the Deadly/Elite rated ships aren't really hard to defeat if one has the right ship and knows what they're doing. But they've considerably improved in almost every way and it's actually more fun now to fight with the higher ranked NPCs (imo).

Maybe they should make them even harder for combatfitted players with high combatrank.

So can I ask, what is your combat rank? And how often do you find elites in SC when not on a mission?

 

[Becks]

So can I ask, what is your combat rank? And how often do you find elites in SC when not on a mission?

My combat rank is 98% Master, so almost Dangerous

I find one every few systems/sc instances, so not really chain interdictions for me.

 

[myrr mac]

For the nth time Ziljan it isnt about the area you are in.

At most, that has some impact on the frequency.

Else I and others wouldnt be meeting purely elite or deadly pirates.

Or do you still think everyone is lying and you are the one true chest-thumper?

 

[Ziljan]

My combat rank is 98% Master, so almost Dangerous

I find one every few systems/sc instances, so not really chain interdictions for me.

And these are wanted NPCs, not police or upstanding citizens that you are finding in SC?

If so I'm perplexed as to what I'm doing wrong. I have 83% of Dangerous, very nearly Deadly, and I am in an A rated FDL. I haven't seen 1 elite pirate since 2.1.02 dropped that wasn't mission generated.

I really miss these Elite rank fights from 2.1.01. Especially the 1v1 small ship dogfights. Those seem to have been completely removed in 2.1.02.

And far from disbelieving, I am to the point where I am hunting for clues on where to find these fights again. I'm willing to travel, and tonight I went to over 30 systems in my wild hunt.

 

[Becks]

And these are wanted NPCs, not police or upstanding citizens that you are finding in SC?

If so I'm perplexed as to what I'm doing wrong. I have 83% of Dangerous, very nearly Deadly, and I am in an A rated FDL. I haven't seen 1 elite pirate since 2.1.02 dropped that wasn't mission generated.

I really miss these Elite rank fights from 2.1.01. Especially the 1v1 small ship dogfights. Those seem to have been completely removed in 2.1.02.

And far from disbelieving, I am to the point where I am hunting for clues on where to find these fights again. I'm willing to travel, and tonight I went to over 30 systems in my wild hunt.

Yep, all of those NPCs are wanted and every single one has either a Conda or a FDL. Builds differ some use chaff, some SCBs, some use both (those suck hard).

Maybe it's worth mentioning that I'm flying an A-rated, heavily engineered Corvette most of the time. But I've experienced attacks from Elite bountyhunters in Eagles while travelling with a Hauler. So maybe it depends on the ship?

Edit: I always had engineering commodities in my hold. Maybe that can be a trigger?

 

[myrr mac]

Fine Ziljan:
my stats as best I can remember:

A rated conda, with varying loadout. (always 1 hull package, 7a shield, 1 a rated scb, rest varies).

Mostly harmless
Elite
Pathfinder

Lt Commander
Earl

544m ballance
1.2b assets.
0 bounty.
friendly with empire and federation (thanks to decay).
Not in PP
Sometimes on missions, usually not.

37 tons of engineering cargo, and 28 tons limpets.

I play the game in 64 bit. On a HotasX. I dont use IRscan or VR (thinking of IRscan).

I exclusively get elite and deadly pirates showing an interest in me (ie spawned for me). They are quite common, but not "all the time". I cant speak for chain interdictions lately as my usual response is just to relog. But earlier (last week), they most certainly did chain interdict. They fly dropship to conda class, exclusively.

I also dont fight interdictions if they happen before I relog. I tried that, it isnt worth the effort in a heavy ship like a conda, you aint gonna win more than 1 in 10. I suspect interdiction mechanics are highly dependent on things like framerate, and also on ship size.

Now go duplicate my stats, sooner or later you ll get your precious elite action.

 

[Ziljan]

You seem to have a hard time to accept that it's probably the game that is doing "something wrong" and not you. I know it sounds crazy but that's the only conclusion that makes halfway sense to me.

If other people are finding elite fights and I am not, then how can I blame the game?

Granted there may be outside factors skewing the best opponents at traders (who may or may not want this). But if some people are getting good fights and I am not, I am not about blame a conspiracy, lol.

There is obviously some hidden game mechanic at work. And if anything interests me as much as a good Elite rank dogfight, is a good mystery.

I'll not rest until it's solved.

I'll be terribly disappointed if the NPC ranks are based on server connection or latency. Or some other network code error.

 

[Ziljan]

Yep, all of those NPCs are wanted and every single one has either a Conda or a FDL. Builds differ some use chaff, some SCBs, some use both (those suck hard).

Maybe it's worth mentioning that I'm flying an A-rated, heavily engineered Corvette most of the time. But I've experienced attacks from Elite bountyhunters in Eagles while travelling with a Hauler. So maybe it depends on the ship?

Flying a corvette is probably a relevant data. I think that kind of info gets left out of most posts, thank you for including it!

@Myrr. Thanks for your data as well.

Well it might be a multi-variable formula that is generating NPCs, but it seems that current Ship that your flying may have a strong influence on the random (Non-Mission) NPC ranks.

If true this means high rank 1v1 dogfights between two small ships might be truly gone from the game. This would be a tragedy since those are the only fun fights in the game, imo.

I will keep searching though. And if I don't find them anywhere, I'll make it my mission to see that they return to the game

---

Becks, you gave me an idea. Maybe it's tied to the number and type of Engineer modifications on the ship? Currently only flying unmodded ships! Possible eureka?

---

 

[Bomba Luigi]

What npcs come after you definitly is too predictable with not enough variety. My expierence with the corvette is the same, mostly always condas and sometimes FDL, would love to get another corvette or a FAS from time to time or some wings of small/medium ships, dunno just a bit diffrent stuff.
But not the old sucicie shieldless eagles, I don't miss them interdicting me

 

[Turban]

While overall I think the IA is fine, there are a few annoying things.

I just had a fight in my Viper Mk IV against a Vulture. Nothing special really. Except that Vulture could go at speed in the 370, with is 30m/s over the Vulture's max speed.

Not sure if AI cheating or if it's engineers related but IA running OP builds like that is kind of annoying.

 

[Ziljan]

If it is what I think it is there's practically no way for us to knock this mystery down, but for now I don't want to bother anyone with wild speculations as only FD can know for sure. I just hope they read this thread thoroughly and will come to the right conclusions.

I think Becks may have provided a new line of inquiry. What if it's (at least in part) tied to engineer mods on the ship you're currently flying?

That would make sense! Because

1 it would balance solo 1.6 vs 2.1
2 it would balance the NPCs player progression through engineer mods
3 it seems to fit my data point (needs at least a 100 more data points to increase certainty)j

 

[Queex]

Becks, you gave me an idea. Maybe it's tied to the number and type of Engineer modifications on the ship? Currently only flying unmodded ships! Possible eureka?

Sadly, no. I've got no engineered mods, and still see both ends of the spectrum (long periods of zero interdictions, and occasional bursts of excessive hostile NPC spawn).

An idea occurred in the shower - might it be related to the 'age' of an instance? A problem when a SC instance is spun up for a system? Systems with heavy player traffic, in Open, probably remain populated for long stretches of time and hence don't experience the bug very often at all. Systems with slight traffic, in Private Group, and all systems in Solo, get created with the flawed generation script and all the associated woes. That might be an important piece of the puzzle.

 

[frostypaw]

If true this means high rank 1v1 dogfights between two small ships might be truly gone from the game. This would be a tragedy since those are the only fun fights in the game, imo.

That is a concern for me - when I've had my more violent runs the ships have scaled up and I ended up being chased by a high ranked dropship which was the point I ran...

The more equal sized ship fights were more fun - master pythons and dangerous FDLs have been the most entertainment by far

Mod wise I have only upgraded my shields and thrusters at grade 1 (pathetic) and fsd to grade 3 (ooh!) so if it's using those to rank them up it's still a little excitable I'd say but not out of the realms of possibility