'Attack of the AI' III

How is the AI for you in 2.1.02?

  • I'm too young to die! (Waaay too easy)

    Votes: 25 3.1%
  • Hey' not too rough (Too easy)

    Votes: 89 11.2%
  • Hurt me plenty (About right)

    Votes: 365 46.0%
  • Ultra-Voilence (Too hard)

    Votes: 231 29.1%
  • Nightmare! (Waaay too hard)

    Votes: 84 10.6%

  • Total voters
    794
  • Poll closed .
My only engineering mods are lvl 2 clean engines, and 5 fsd range (That rolled absolute garbage, and took over 20 hours).

Also this was a problem before i got any mods.

edit: i may have a mod on my mc4 too. I ground that engi up to lvl 2, via some lvl 1 mods, but I think I didnt accept them. Cant be sure tho.
 
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Becks, you gave me an idea. Maybe it's tied to the number and type of Engineer modifications on the ship? Currently only flying unmodded ships! Possible eureka?


The modifications on my Vette are:

G3 Dirty Drive Tuning
G5 Reinforced Shields
G3 High Charge Capacity Power Distributor
G1 Overcharged Power Plant
3x G2 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
1x G3 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
2x C4 Multicannon G3 Overcharged Weapon
1x C3 Multicannon G3 Highcapacity Magazine
1x C2 Multicannon G1 Leightweight Mount
1x C2 Multicannon G4 High Capacity Magazine
2x C1 Burst Laser G2 Sturdy Mount
2x HRP G1 Lightweight Hull Reinforcement

If the NPCs distribution is tied to a system measuring the players ship strengths and modifications count into that, then it would explain why I get so much Deadly/Elite instead of Master/Dangerous ranked NPCs solely in Condas or FDLs :)

Edit: Just happened again. Elite FDL in Y Velorum. No other players in the instance + I'm in Möbius. It's definitely a pirate :)
 
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Sadly, no. I've got no engineered mods, and still see both ends of the spectrum (long periods of zero interdictions, and occasional bursts of excessive hostile NPC spawn).

An idea occurred in the shower - might it be related to the 'age' of an instance? A problem when a SC instance is spun up for a system? Systems with heavy player traffic, in Open, probably remain populated for long stretches of time and hence don't experience the bug very often at all. Systems with slight traffic, in Private Group, and all systems in Solo, get created with the flawed generation script and all the associated woes. That might be an important piece of the puzzle.

But were those Elite mission NPC spawns or random Elite NPCs that you found in SC? And were you hauling cargo in a large ship at the time? Those two come into play as well.

You may be onto something with the more heavily trafficked areas generating more high rank NPCs. There is a phenomenon where NPCs seem to generated not just on the amount but also the quality and type of CMDR traffic.

I think this is what I noticing when I traveled through PP Control systems.
 
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I also got hunted by an elite annaconda pirate on tuesday while in a barnacle system in the pleiades sector. Not inhabitted space. I can give you the exact system.
 
You may be onto something with the more heavily trafficked areas generating more high rank NPCs. There is a phenomenon where NPCs seem to generated not just on the amount but also the quality and type of CMDR traffic.
I guess I can see the dev appeal to this as a mechanism but it seems like a poor plan to me if it is so - we're only meant to be one small group of pilots amongst many, they shouldn't care about us that much
 
The modifications on my Vette are:

G3 Dirty Drive Tuning
G5 Reinforced Shields
G3 High Charge Capacity Power Distributor
G1 Overcharged Power Plant
3x G2 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
1x G3 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
2x C4 Multicannon G3 Overcharged Weapon
1x C3 Multicannon G3 Highcapacity Magazine
1x C2 Multicannon G1 Leightweight Mount
1x C2 Multicannon G4 High Capacity Magazine
2x C1 Burst Laser G2 Sturdy Mount
2x HRP G1 Lightweight Hull Reinforcement

If the NPCs distribution is tied to a system measuring the players ship strengths and modifications count into that, then it would explain why I get so much Deadly/Elite instead of Master/Dangerous ranked NPCs solely in Condas or FDLs :)

Edit: Just happened again. Elite FDL in Y Velorum. No other players in the instance + I'm in Möbius. It's definitely a pirate :)

Oh my. That's impressive!!! You've been a busy bee :)

I know you don't like to hear that - and it would be indeed a very poor 'feature' - but it looks like ship size matters, maybe with Type 6 as a threshold (base mass? total mass?). Though I doubt it would be the only factor...

edit:
I've just read Becks' loadout and if this theory holds some truth then there's actually hope for you: "Just" pimp your eagle with engineers stuff. :D Personally I doubt that though...

I won't go on a small ship dogfight crusade just yet, but requiring engineer boosts to engage in small ship 1v1 kind of defeats the purpose. Especially if high rank NPCs don't have those mods as well. If anything, those high rank fights could end up being easier.
 
I guess I can see the dev appeal to this as a mechanism but it seems like a poor plan to me if it is so - we're only meant to be one small group of pilots amongst many, they shouldn't care about us that much

No, I don't think that's what's happening. This is a solo/group/open MMO. Those NPCs are supposed to represent us as mirror copies. NPC avatars that are like ghost images of real players. Often even flying the same ships.
 
If you could put some AI out in the Formidine Rift I'd be able to tell you :p It's all sunshine and lollipops over here!
Be careful what you ask for!

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No, I don't think that's what's happening. This is a solo/group/open MMO. Those NPCs are supposed to represent us as mirror copies. NPC avatars that are like ghost images of real players. Often even flying the same ships.
That's exactly what I used to think, but as others have pointed out to me several times the pilots federation ONLY represents players - the rest are.... something else tied more directly to their groups/factions.

That ends up making more sense with all sorts of bits of the game - but then falls over here if our traffic is being used to generate more traffic which would make sense if, as you think and i thought made sense, they were reflections of us

Confused about what they're doing I am.
 
Sure. But always keep in mind the game isn't exclusively made for you. For others it could very well make sense. ;)

They could find a way to generate NPCs based on the class and rank, and use mods as a 3rd customizing factor.

They removed the engi mods though, so right now the toughest NPCs are unmodded. So they are balancing 3 player dimensions against only 2 NPC dimensions.

Ergo the current balance "match-maker" spectrum is skewed with a hollow middle of low rank small ships. Does that make sense?

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That's exactly what I used to think, but as others have pointed out to me several times the pilots federation ONLY represents players - the rest are.... something else tied more directly to their groups/factions.

That's the Lore. I'm talking about actual game mechanics. It's obvious if you go into any high traffic system that NPCs are generated based on traffic. And system traffic only counts CMDRs, not NPCs.
 
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No, I don't think that's what's happening. This is a solo/group/open MMO. Those NPCs are supposed to represent us as mirror copies. NPC avatars that are like ghost images of real players. Often even flying the same ships.

An NPC with my Vette roaming through the galaxy ... I'd like to meet that gal xD
 
You may be onto something with the more heavily trafficked areas generating more high rank NPCs.

Well, my thought was actually the opposite - it's the script that generates NPCs when an instance is created that's faulty, not the one that generates them for an instance already running. So low-traffic instances have the problems, the high-traffic ones less so. And Open players don't see it as much because they're less likely to arrive at a completely fresh instance.
 
That's the Lore. I'm talking about actual game mechanics. It's obvious if you go into any high traffic system that NPCs are generated based on traffic. And system traffic only counts CMDRs, not NPCs.
Absolutely and I think in our special way we're agreeing this isn't right to mesh with the lore, and hence what people expect to find in places - even if your systems are rarely visited by cmdrs it makes zero sense for them then to be devoid of action
 
Another data point from Mahau: Elite DBX (against whom the star trick didn't work) with heat-generating weapons, dumbfires, 3 chaff and 8+ SCB. 4 of the SCB were used one after the other just before I managed to drop his shields. the other 4 were used one after the other after the shields came back up. No sign that the DBX was obeying the new heat generation for them (AFAICT). We were close up to the star so heat was 50 minimum throughout. Took me down to 73% hull, if he hadn't been distracted by security I would have had to flee.

I was in my python, hauling PP goods and a handful of rares (wasn't a regular pirate that attacked, not a PP enemy). Medium security, no wars between the system factions.

On my way to pick up the bounty, interdicted by a Dangerous CmIV, who booked it before I could finish him off.

Neither fight was was at all entertaining. The DBX rammed me twice (to his detriment both times), but apart from that did nothing but circle. The Cobra did nothing but circle until it turned to flee.
 
ok dared to go out again. did missions - nothing until i got 4 tons of ion somethings as reward. then next trip out, master python (ran from both interdictions) dangerous vulture (took damage because interdiction immediately failed and then escaped with the mini game second time and he vanished) and an expert viper mk iii which was a good fight, because i was sick of running and gambled he would be beatable. soon as i sold the 4 tons of cargo no problems apart from a harmless something or other which spontaneously combusted via beams.
 
The modifications on my Vette are:

G3 Dirty Drive Tuning
G5 Reinforced Shields
G3 High Charge Capacity Power Distributor
G1 Overcharged Power Plant
3x G2 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
1x G3 Heavy Duty Shield Booster
2x C4 Multicannon G3 Overcharged Weapon
1x C3 Multicannon G3 Highcapacity Magazine
1x C2 Multicannon G1 Leightweight Mount
1x C2 Multicannon G4 High Capacity Magazine
2x C1 Burst Laser G2 Sturdy Mount
2x HRP G1 Lightweight Hull Reinforcement

If the NPCs distribution is tied to a system measuring the players ship strengths and modifications count into that, then it would explain why I get so much Deadly/Elite instead of Master/Dangerous ranked NPCs solely in Condas or FDLs :)

Edit: Just happened again. Elite FDL in Y Velorum. No other players in the instance + I'm in Möbius. It's definitely a pirate :)

You are my hero for getting these mods. I am trying to retain my strength to commit to getting these! Even if just grade 1! haha Well done CMDR
 
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Just chiming in again to reinforce a previous point: the longer this poll stays open, the more it will slant towards "too hard". It inches that way every single day. We're now knee-deep in selection bias, and the poll no longer has any statistical significance. If the mods choose to keep it open indefinitely, it will eventually no longer look like a normal distribution, it will simply look like an upward sloping line. It's now completely meaningless and only caters to those here to complain.

Moral of the story, most of us who know the NPCs pose no real threat aren't in hiding and have moved on and are just playing the game in ways we find entertaining instead of raging on the forums. Kind of a shame that the NPCs didn't get more of a much needed upgrade though. But hey, you take what you can get, I guess.

You players who think the new AI is ok still think the game revolves around you.

Apart from the combat ability issue with the buffed AI simply being too hard for some people, not everyone wants to fly around the Bubble in a combat ship boiling up hard NPCs, no matter how much combat ability/experience they have. As a combateer I fly a selection of maxed combat ships and as such the only problem I have with the buffed AI is that the Elite/Deadly NPCs are often able to bug out before I can boil them.

BUT... as an explorer I fly an Anaconda maxed for jump range. My ship has practically no defences against the buffed AI but a single Small Turret Beam Laser with C2 Lightweight Mount, which I only have in case I find some Easter Egg on my travels that needs opening with a laser, and paper-thin 3D Shields with C3 Thermal Resistance for protection against light bumps when landing on a planet or negotiating a space station airlock. And no amount of Engineering upgrades is going to give my 1D Power Distributor enough charge to give my ship Boost capability to get out of trouble.

Now this wouldn't normally be a problem out in The Black, but if I want Engineer upgrades like C5 Increased FSD Range, I have to keep flying my defenceless Anaconda to Engineers all over the Bubble, carrying rare mats and commodities that I safely collected in a strong combat ship. The Engineers update makes this obligatory, whilst buffing an AI that actively hunts me down for carrying rare mats and commodities: 'All that tasty cargo', 'The rumours were true', 'Good job I got to you first', etc. Flying the biggest ship in the game with a 6A FSD you'd think I was safe from interdiction, but often I am easily pulled out of Supercruise and there's nothing I can do about it. When it happens, my shields go down in about a second or two, and my hull in about ten seconds, losing all of the precious mats I've been collecting from all over. Again, in my defenceless research ship here's nothing I can do about it. I'm just supposed to accept that.

So what's the point. The point is that the buff AI is no problem for combateers, but in the context of the Engineers update the buff AI viciously and gleefully punishes explorers who want to actually use the Engineers. In the wider context of explorers appealing to FD to make the game more interesting and fun in terms of exploration of the gigantic sandbox outside of the Bubble, the buff AI is a contemptuous insult.

As such, I have no problem retaliating in kind. When I get interdicted and boiled by the buff AI in my defenceless research vessel, I could just pick up the pieces, go back to one of my combat ships and start collecting the mats again, and maybe get interdicted and destroyed again when I go to cash them in at the Engineers in my defenceless research vessel again, and repeat until I finally get through to the Engineer in my defenceless research vessel whilst carrying the mats for my upgrades. Eventually I will get through, in much the same way that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually produce the Complete Works of William Shakespeare. But it's far less time-consuming to simply assume from the beginning that I'm going to keep trying to visit an Engineer in my Anaconda with my valuable mats until I make it without being interdicted, and simply pull the plug on the computer in disgust every time I do get interdicted by an NPC, then simply restart the game with no NPC trouble at all, see the Engineer, cash in my mats, and get my upgrade just as I would have done eventually in any case. If there was nothing wrong with the game AI update I would not have to do this.

The only answer I see is to make it more difficult for NPCs to interdict exploration ships with maxed FSDs, even if the NPCs are flying large combat ships with maxed Interdictors.
 
I'm still cautious, I went to visit my trade routes in my gunship, did all paths with little load to test.
I was confident enough to take out Anaconda from the garage for upgrades.

If I can ensure my survival , will do some trade, If still too complicated I'm going to do exploration until things settle down.
the engineers are so important in my game I sold my FAS by mistake in shipyard, lost everything and it makes no difference.

the servers issues and new IA destroyed me in seconds......
 
You players who think the new AI is ok still think the game revolves around you.

Apart from the combat ability issue with the buffed AI simply being too hard for some people, not everyone wants to fly around the Bubble in a combat ship boiling up hard NPCs, no matter how much combat ability/experience they have. As a combateer I fly a selection of maxed combat ships and as such the only problem I have with the buffed AI is that the Elite/Deadly NPCs are often able to bug out before I can boil them.

BUT... as an explorer I fly an Anaconda maxed for jump range. My ship has practically no defences against the buffed AI but a single Small Turret Beam Laser with C2 Lightweight Mount, which I only have in case I find some Easter Egg on my travels that needs opening with a laser, and paper-thin 3D Shields with C3 Thermal Resistance for protection against light bumps when landing on a planet or negotiating a space station airlock. And no amount of Engineering upgrades is going to give my 1D Power Distributor enough charge to give my ship Boost capability to get out of trouble.

Now this wouldn't normally be a problem out in The Black, but if I want Engineer upgrades like C5 Increased FSD Range, I have to keep flying my defenceless Anaconda to Engineers all over the Bubble, carrying rare mats and commodities that I safely collected in a strong combat ship. The Engineers update makes this obligatory, whilst buffing an AI that actively hunts me down for carrying rare mats and commodities: 'All that tasty cargo', 'The rumours were true', 'Good job I got to you first', etc. Flying the biggest ship in the game with a 6A FSD you'd think I was safe from interdiction, but often I am easily pulled out of Supercruise and there's nothing I can do about it. When it happens, my shields go down in about a second or two, and my hull in about ten seconds, losing all of the precious mats I've been collecting from all over. Again, in my defenceless research ship here's nothing I can do about it. I'm just supposed to accept that.

So what's the point. The point is that the buff AI is no problem for combateers, but in the context of the Engineers update the buff AI viciously and gleefully punishes explorers who want to actually use the Engineers. In the wider context of explorers appealing to FD to make the game more interesting and fun in terms of exploration of the gigantic sandbox outside of the Bubble, the buff AI is a contemptuous insult.

As such, I have no problem retaliating in kind. When I get interdicted and boiled by the buff AI in my defenceless research vessel, I could just pick up the pieces, go back to one of my combat ships and start collecting the mats again, and maybe get interdicted and destroyed again when I go to cash them in at the Engineers in my defenceless research vessel again, and repeat until I finally get through to the Engineer in my defenceless research vessel whilst carrying the mats for my upgrades. Eventually I will get through, in much the same way that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually produce the Complete Works of William Shakespeare. But it's far less time-consuming to simply assume from the beginning that I'm going to keep trying to visit an Engineer in my Anaconda with my valuable mats until I make it without being interdicted, and simply pull the plug on the computer in disgust every time I do get interdicted by an NPC, then simply restart the game with no NPC trouble at all, see the Engineer, cash in my mats, and get my upgrade just as I would have done eventually in any case. If there was nothing wrong with the game AI update I would not have to do this.

The only answer I see is to make it more difficult for NPCs to interdict exploration ships with maxed FSDs, even if the NPCs are flying large combat ships with maxed Interdictors.
i see an answer in not having psychic npcs. not many pirates will bother interdicting an explorer - what can they be carrying? you cant scoop data. they might not even have cargo space. if they do have anything its probably illegal salvage and so you get a bounty for attacking in the first place and THEN risk a bigger bounty trying to sneak the illegal cargo someplace with a black market! why buy extra trouble? so stop with npcs knowing magically you have cargo. make them scan you first and if its negative leave in disgust ("you got lucky this time") or pretending to be system authrities ("yeah, well uh commander im a lootenant in the federal army on secret anti smuggler patrol and stuff, carry on ok? oh and you never saw me right?").

pirates arent going to know you are going to an engineer even, so they cant guess you have mats - the engineer systems have legitimate stations in also. you could be a bounty hunter going to collect! why pick a fight with someone who might turn out not only to be tough, but might decide to kws; and then might decide you are worth the hassle of killing! pirates are opportunists, and the stupid ones die quick. the smart ones play the odds. an explorer isnt worth the extra bounty. unless they KNOW you have cargo and they cant KNOW without a scan, and they wont interdict anyone on a low chance. trader or armed trader then yeah. scanner should tell them what kind of weapons a ship has. and what cargo space. they will need cargo scanner for any cargo. they will go for someone who isnt armed to the teeth and has cargo space and who looks beatable by combat rank.
 
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I just made it back safely from a month-long exploration trip – barely!

I chose a system with a station just 39LS from the star, but I still got interdicted... and it was one of those interdictions where it looks like you're winning – until you're losing hard. I failed to submit in time, and so had to endure the long wait for the FSD to come back online, while the NPC took thermal potshots at my shields. Fortunately he didn't start firing for a few seconds (I boosted instantly and continually, of course) and didn't land that many shots on me – I'm guessing he wasn't that highly rated – so I escaped with only 9% hull damage. Made it to the station, landed (my first HOTAS landing!), offloaded 42 million CR worth of data. And... relax.

I'm just 10% away from Elite now, so I'll be heading out again shortly – but that's the last time I'll risk that much data in an unarmed ship (at least without calling on the assistance of the Iridium Wing)!
 
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