So now the new autopilot, added so that players don’t actually have to fly their space ships, is now diverting even more development resources away from adding new environments in which to not fly their spaceships in, to deal with the problems created by it in the first place? Maybe FD should just quit developing Elite Dangerous, and go into the captcha development business.
Autopilot thread
- Thread starter CMDR EDGEL0RD
- Start date
So now the new autopilot, added so that players don’t actually have to fly their space ships, is now diverting even more development resources away from adding new environments in which to not fly their spaceships in, to deal with the problems created by it in the first place? Maybe FD should just quit developing Elite Dangerous, and go into the captcha development business.
...He probably has no use for your respect. Only respect for someone's different way of thinking means anything anyway.
Point 6:
The entire fight might not last 30 seconds for a sitting duck.
So you're essentially suggesting, that autopilot use should carry a death sentence
Point 9:
900 billion systems generated by algorithm is not content, because in most of them, there is absolutely nothing that could legitimately hold your interest for any length of time, considering that its the same random mixture of the same stuff from the system before and the system after.
Ok, maybe you see a marble rendered in blue: you think "oh, mediocre amount of credits here", let me cruise to excruciating proximity, so my ship will scan the damned thing and get me the same minute amount of credits I'd get from killing a wanted ship in a HazRes.
And while you're cruising there, with roughly identical scenery from the last sevenhundred times, your eyes have already returned to the Television, showing some non-BBC docu telling you that the earth is flat...
Holy cow, now that's entertaining!
(they're seriously meaning to say all this vast, boring space doesn't exist and all the stars are just green-house lamps. I guess only the Astronots know...)
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You do realize that the whole allure of Colonia is that most players see what’s involved, and say “no way,” don’t you?
A “carrier service” removes the huge source of friction keeping the proverbial “lowest common denominator” out of Colonia.
Also, any autopilot that can make a more than one jump can fly to Colonia. It doesn’t even necessarily need to be able to scoop fuel, because players have made it to Colonia without one. And isn’t the whole point of the autopilot automating the hours long sequences of nothing but jumps, not the ones with only a few minutes?
Especially if it takes more time to figure out capriciously convoluted captcha capable of beating “off the shelf” software, than it takes to make the trip itself.
Yay Autopilot!!!
Just what the game needs.
Although should be limited to certain ships only and will only do hyperspace jumps with no jump skips and will stop just before fuel runs out for one last jump resulting in the same amount of time spent but no boring bits.
This could give me a chance to do some other activities AFK while waiting for the jumps to finish.
The other option I would like is a super +300ly single jump that involves a game of skill piloting the ship through a wormhole similar to an interdiction game except more trickier and random and with better special effects.
Incidentally, it would be nice to have a larger random variety of hyperspace loading screens/sounds/effects too.
I am willing to pay for special hyper-drive module dlc if the devs need the motivation... but at a reasonable price at the store. I am certain this would be a top seller.
I suggest that certain ships and not all ships are to be capable of housing special jump modules to ensure that it isn't a game killer and this will also allow an unofficial beta test of this dynamic for the game.
The devs can think in deciding which ships, distances, game mechanics and its overall effects/impact on the game.
Just what the game needs.
Although should be limited to certain ships only and will only do hyperspace jumps with no jump skips and will stop just before fuel runs out for one last jump resulting in the same amount of time spent but no boring bits.
This could give me a chance to do some other activities AFK while waiting for the jumps to finish.
The other option I would like is a super +300ly single jump that involves a game of skill piloting the ship through a wormhole similar to an interdiction game except more trickier and random and with better special effects.
Incidentally, it would be nice to have a larger random variety of hyperspace loading screens/sounds/effects too.
I am willing to pay for special hyper-drive module dlc if the devs need the motivation... but at a reasonable price at the store. I am certain this would be a top seller.
I suggest that certain ships and not all ships are to be capable of housing special jump modules to ensure that it isn't a game killer and this will also allow an unofficial beta test of this dynamic for the game.
The devs can think in deciding which ships, distances, game mechanics and its overall effects/impact on the game.
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Yeah. If i dont need it then nobody does. Classic. And I've wrought what I think about that "flying" and why this game needs autopilot in the op.
Havent got a thing in what you had said about Colonia. You mean goids? So people flying there on their ships there does not give away anything? Whatever.
Look, can you refrain from voicing concerns in the sphere of security while having no sort of expertise in it? I've explained everything pretty nicely so far. If simple masked numbers do not sit well with you, then how about "open galaxy map and select system by coordinates X Y which have XX syllable/numbers in it" from on top of my head?
If people are able to overcome captcha in game, they can build autopilot from scratch, as captcha breaking is harder. Moreover, they will do so, as using in-game one for the purposes of making a bot is unwise, as use of in-game functionality makes it easy to trace. Not to mention the fact that external autopilots for this game are done already. Demand decrease will stop botters better than lack of an in-game autopilot.
Monitoring tables for 24/7? Ever used Excel for anything in your life? Once per day: filter by systems in which there were the most of suspicious autopilot users, take top 200 of such, briefly check their actions, shadowban most obvious botters, roll back damage to bgs done. 4 hours of work tops, doable by an intern.
If you will say next that they have no tools to fixing BGS damage selectively, they better get some, autopilot or no, as bots are wrecking BGS already as things are now.
And I am all in for subscription if it will help the game. Its just that it is a bit too late to think about game payment model.
Lestat
Banned
I rather have more gameplay content. Than have Frontier that a small company pay an employee to monitor and make new captcha for the game so you can have autopilot. Maybe the op should reply to post 120. Maybe explain how to prevent bots and to explain to families and Ip Address and shadowban and such. I don't want my whole family ban because we all decided to use the autopilot. While at my house.
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Wow, that is a great one.
300 ly jump with a minigame involved, and in case of failing it you will be dropped at a distance from some of the stars in between, with shrekt fsd, 50% of hull and a couple of Basilisks around you.
Sold modules are a bit too P2W imo.
Lestat
Banned
Well using an Anaconda with the right setup and using Neutron stars. You can get 270LY. It can be done. So wormholes are not needed.
You could use this type of ship Egy Ace Fyke for your 15ly combat ship. Use your Anaconda to get to point A to B and then pay for moving your combat ship. No Autopilot needed.
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I may not share you views on priorities for the devs. Even then, main goal of this thread is to transform opinions of most of the players from "it will never be done because of... reasons" to "it have to be done at some point".
And somehow I can answer you question on family bans with less than one second of thought. By watching other activites on the said accounts, maybe? By the type of activity done? I think I've asked to think before posting in this thread. Maybe this is too much, if so then sorry
.And, by the way, acivities of multiple bots focused on the same spot is what is destructive. Not bots doing different things.
Come to think of it, I've saw a thread somewhere, where some dude cries about him and his "kits" banned. Can't find it atm, not convenient to do so when I'm on phone. That he "dropped wares to for them to buy ships", etc. So this problem is present already.
I am explaining for like 5th time now, that autopilot which is less effective and have protection which is more difficult to break than to make from scratch externally is not efficient to use for botting. Especially when external ones are done already. Moreover, I've explained how adding autopilot in game will disincentify bot creators to work for some extent.
Why then you make me to answer on questions which need an answer for at present state of things?
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Lestat
Banned
I want you to answer post 120 with quotes and everything in that whole post everything to captcha and how it would affect players. Shard IP If I can see why bot and autopilot could be an issue. You should be able to have an answer to them. To me and everyone else.I may not share you views on priorities for the devs. Even then, main goal of this thread is to transform opinions of most of the players from "it will never be done because of... reasons" to "it have to be done at some point".
And somehow I can answer you question on family bans with less than one second of thought. By watching other activites on the said accounts, maybe? By the type of activity done? I think I've asked to think before posting in this thread. Maybe this is too much, if so then sorry
Come to think of it, I've saw a thread somewhere, where some dude cries about him and his "kits" banned. Can't find it atm, not convenient to do so when I'm on phone. That he "dropped wares to for them to buy ships", etc. So this problem is present already.
I am explaining for like 5th time now, that autopilot which is less effective and have protection which is more difficult to break than to make from scratch externally is not efficient to use for botting. Especially when external ones are done already. Moreover, I've explained how adding autopilot in game will disincentify bot creators to work for some extent.
Why then you make me to answer on questions which need an answer for at present state of things?
And I did several times.
1. Breaking captcha, as simple as masked numbers, is somewhat harder than to wedge a penny into keyboard. I might say it is harder than building external autopilot from scratch. If bot maker cannot consistently break captcha, he wont be able to make a bot out of an in-game autopilot. If he is able to, he wont be using deliberatrly inefficient and traceable in-game autopilot as a building block for a bot. Especially when external are done already.
2. Captcha does not even have to be complex to be disincentifying enough.
3. Problem is already present. Need in GMs is already there.
Did I've left something outside? Point me to it.
Oh, by the way, the easiness people sometimes give to creation of bots only highlights dumbness of traveling in this game, innit?
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Its not about whether or not people need an autopilot. Its about whether or not an autopilot makes it easy to cheat at this game. Frontier's extremely lax policies towards cheating has already damaged this game as a viable MMO. Making it easy to bot just makes a bad situation worse.
If this wasn't an MMO, this wouldn't be an issue. Players could tailor their experience in the game to suit their abilities and preferences. This is an MMO, for better or worse, which means that along with the good things about them, you also get the bad: cheaters, botters, exploiters, hackers, player-killers, harrassers, and all around jerks.
Totaly understand those concerns. I myself do not like the fact that one person can be able to bruteforce BGS or PP with it taking them mere hours to do. But with all respect, I've explained how adding autopilot in-game will either not affect situation or improve it quite fully. Might be hard to take in and look inconsequent at the first glance, but I find my reasoning quite formidable.
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Then we must agree to disagree, because I think you are seriously underestimating the problems with captcha*:
- If the captcha is convenient for human players, then it is easily defeated by most macro programs, which many players have access to. The days of “I am not a robot” techniques working are long behind us. It will not provide any friction at all against botting. Given that the current friction against botting is obtaining autopiloting software in the first place, this will increase the amount of botting, which is already high enough as it is.
- If the captcha can defeat most macro programs, then it is easily defeated by “off the shelf” anti-captcha software. While this will provide friction for most players against botting, it will not provide sufficient friction to deter current cheaters. It will just give them another tool, which will make it easier for them to “pass” as human. On the other hand, it will provide considerable friction against using the autopilot itself. This kind of defeats the purpose of adding such a feature in the first place.
- If the captcha can defeat most “off the shelf” anti-captcha software, then it will make the autopilot unusable for most players. People are barely willing to put up with that level of inconvenience when it means protecting their financial information. Accessing a game feature? Not so much.
* I’m grouping all “human detection” methods under the name “captcha.”
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First let me say that I think the Auto-docker should allow you to auto-undock, take you safely out and then disengage when you leave the no-fire zone.
Now for this Auto-Pilot stuff... I don't like it as described. But I think there might be room for something like it...
I think there should be a module that allows you to scoop and shoot to your next destination... BUT
- It should be an extremely EXPENSIVE module.
- It should be an excessively HEAVY module.
- It should have a HUGE power draw.
- It should INCREASE fuel used per jump.
- It should require you to manually plot Main Sequence stars or face the consequences.
- It should take a LONG time, and lap each star until the tank is FULL.
- It should AUTO-SUBMIT to any interdictions.
- It should NOT allow use of discovery scanner. If the scanner is honked, it should disengage the module immediately.
Now with this list, I think you have an interesting addition to the game. It balances a bit more by taking a lot more time to do it the lazy way, limiting your jump range, increasing your costs, limiting your benefits, reducing module flexibility, and making you a softer target for piracy.
There would still be a lot of happy users for something like this in certain scenarios... but as described in the OP, its almost allowing the game to Bot itself. So you have to make something like this have tremendously big draw backs for using it in comparison to doing it the fun way. I know this is a well worn topic, but I've always thought discussion was a bit too binary. There could be room for something a bit like it at least.
And of course a Shuttle service to Colonia would reduce a lot of these request I bet.
Now for this Auto-Pilot stuff... I don't like it as described. But I think there might be room for something like it...
I think there should be a module that allows you to scoop and shoot to your next destination... BUT
- It should be an extremely EXPENSIVE module.
- It should be an excessively HEAVY module.
- It should have a HUGE power draw.
- It should INCREASE fuel used per jump.
- It should require you to manually plot Main Sequence stars or face the consequences.
- It should take a LONG time, and lap each star until the tank is FULL.
- It should AUTO-SUBMIT to any interdictions.
- It should NOT allow use of discovery scanner. If the scanner is honked, it should disengage the module immediately.
Now with this list, I think you have an interesting addition to the game. It balances a bit more by taking a lot more time to do it the lazy way, limiting your jump range, increasing your costs, limiting your benefits, reducing module flexibility, and making you a softer target for piracy.
There would still be a lot of happy users for something like this in certain scenarios... but as described in the OP, its almost allowing the game to Bot itself. So you have to make something like this have tremendously big draw backs for using it in comparison to doing it the fun way. I know this is a well worn topic, but I've always thought discussion was a bit too binary. There could be room for something a bit like it at least.
And of course a Shuttle service to Colonia would reduce a lot of these request I bet.
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You probably don't understand the fact that any almost every captcha breaker have to be build specificaly to the task in hand. Most of them work by the means of brute force image comparing against ones from libraries. And most which you can download are made for browsers. And basically by creating new set of data, let alone new type of data, to intelligently solve, you create a need for making new captcha breaker almost from scratch.
And you seem to ignore that "traceable" aspect completely.
Lets clarify one thing. Botting is a threat only to BGS simulation and Powerplay. And botting in those things only is abuseable by focusing multiple bots on a single spot.
And by the way, it is not a big stretch in terms of immersion to forbid autopiloting with some wares. Thus making you transmit your shipping manifest to every nav beacon you pass. And when opposing PP faction learns that there are some Cutter moves on autopilot through their space and carries 750 tonnes of Aisling softcore mags, they would immedieately tell their ATR to go and atomize it
. Imagine now what will happen with some multiboxer then.
As for bot traders and explorers, they do not harm anyone but themselves. External additions to autopilot being illegal is disincenifying enough. Captcha of any sort is enough of a technical barrier for them. If those things wont stop them, nothing will.
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Lazy way and no honking is enougth. Expensive and heavy parts are not needed imo. Nor should it take additional module. I do advocate abolishing all external scanners and making them integrated, as well as merging all limpet controllers into one "Limpet port". And check my previous post for ways it can deal with cargo.
I am ok with game playing itself for 20 minute bursts. And I'm ok watching game screen with one eye during said burts, in case something happens. This "sexual" analogy I had put inside OP fits it more than I've thougth. Circling star and pressing J maybe as entertaining as sex for some people, but sometimes you dont have enough strength in you to do your matrimonial duties. And I'm not sure that I'm the only one which feels some discomfort doing it 5th time in a row.
If you call it "not playing the game", let me decide whether I want to play jumping part or not
.
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I already use a DBX as a quicker way to get around and pay for combat ships to be transported.
What the real issue that most anti-autopilot crowd seem to fail to recognise is the fact that doing several hyperspace jumps gets very boring and not to mention a waste of actual real time with no true game-play enjoyment.
I did mention that only some and not all ship's should be capable of it and I meant 300plus ly jumps so over 300 and some random effects visually and jump outcomes.
So if you fail the enhanced jump mini game or your jump module has some damage then you may end up a bit short or somewhere you didn't plan to be.
There are a lot of players who probably won't have the time to grind for an A rated Anaconda for getting around. Limiting the ship's that are capable of enhanced jumps will balance it out. Maybe only scout and small passenger ships.
IT doesn't have to be all ships and it will just enhance the game and give player the options it will also silence us "we-want-auto-pilot-because-too-many-jumps-suck" crowd.
Having trawled though the thread I would just like to say:
The game as is = Space is Big
with autopilot = Space is not so big
My choice = keep space big.
(If you don't want to play in a game with a galaxy that is big - you need a different game.)
The game as is = Space is Big
with autopilot = Space is not so big
My choice = keep space big.
(If you don't want to play in a game with a galaxy that is big - you need a different game.)