If *large enough* group of players...... It all depends what developers see as enough people to tip balance in one way or another.
Avoiding Group Control...
- Thread starter JeffRyan
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If *large enough* group of players...... It all depends what developers see as enough people to tip balance in one way or another.
Well, that imho is a far more relevant concern: harass players without tripping "the bounty" - but the "abuse" occurs on the individual level (although in some cases could be group exploited, but the issue arises on individual level). A bit like players abused terrain issues in WoW to avoid guards while attacking other players.
Anyway, although FD needs to pay attention to those cases, they are a bit unavoidable but can only be corrected after being detected.
But I also feel it is a different type of issue than it was being discussed.
Limited players and Matching by friends lists maybe enough to reduce griefing in sites in E: D.
Personally I think they will go for market PVP since its the only thing currently that all players can affect regardless of instance or server connection.
Personally I think they will go for market PVP since its the only thing currently that all players can affect regardless of instance or server connection.
The Life and Times of An Elite Procrastinator - Part Two in a Trilogy of Two and Half.
Part 1: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=502603&postcount=148
Picture a broken, volcanic rocky tundra stretching from bleak horizon to horizon. The forlorn squawk of solitary raven drifts, ghost like on the icy, biting wind. Now zoom in to small, hillock. Crowned, like a latter day Bobby Charlton, with the straggling remains of a few hardy strands of the native fauna. Look closer, closer still and a section of the dark, basalt hillside resolves to a deeper, inky blackness, a cave, old as the hillside it set into. Lying outside, cast aside where it surrendered to the incessant squalls is an ancient metal sign. Barely legible, faded black lettering set upon a white, rust streaked background reads the moniker “Dolt Domination Troupe – Inventors of Excel based quality programing”.
Inside, lit by the flickering light of a single solitary candle sits three hooded figures. The first stirs from deep contemplation of the oily flame. He takes breath in preparation, and then gags, turning a whiter shade of pale he promptly collapses in a quivering heap on the floor. The second gazes unpitying at his hapless colleague, and hisses through clenched teeth, “told the silly sod not to breathe heavy, them whale fat candles may be 10 for an Isk, but they ain’t half pungent.”
The first recovers and drags himself back to his place by the candle, he takes a series of shallow panting breaths, pre-oxygenating on the few molecules of clean air which had not fled the burning dead whale, powered assault:
Community Manager DDT Wensleydale: Righto lads, I’ve been hearing some right bad news from the forums. It appears the Buffoons are contemplating leaving us and departing for pastures new. Some one called Ellie Dominatrix or something. At least that’s who I think the “in game mail” was from, addressed to Kittens.
The Second Shadowy figure swears violently
CEO DDT: The swine’s. I sold my soul to that two timing mother lover. I promised my second born and everything. Now first chance he gets, he’s off gallivanting around with some new, younger floozy.
Okay, no use crying over spilled seal milk, how many we loose and how’s it going to affect the bottom line?
Community Support: Hmm, last count there are ten thousand forum accounts registered to known Buffon Squad and Associates, though the vast majority are alts there’s no way I can tell exactly.
The third figure raises his head. Milky blue eyes stare myopically over a pair of heavy horn-rimmed glasses. He gives a polite, almost inaudible cough.
Finance Director DDT Slightly Off Brie: Chief, I’ve been running the numbers for such and eventuality. Once you take into account the sock puppet co-efficient, remove the in-game funded accounts and divide the result by the sum of infinity minus one you end up with a grand total of, 6934 – Epsilon to the power of 6 and a bit. Then remove the tax allowance we claim from the government for Care in the Community.
CEO DDT: Come on Finance – how much?
Finance: 3
CEO DDT: What 3000 paying accounts, my god.
Finance: No Chief 3 accounts.
There appears a slight gleam of hope in Cheddars eyes, his perennial stoop lessens and he grows an inch in the warm glow of the now seemingly aromatic candle.
CEO DDT: I need to confirm this get me the Buffoon phone - stat.
To Be Continuum - if I can be bothered
Part 1: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=502603&postcount=148
Picture a broken, volcanic rocky tundra stretching from bleak horizon to horizon. The forlorn squawk of solitary raven drifts, ghost like on the icy, biting wind. Now zoom in to small, hillock. Crowned, like a latter day Bobby Charlton, with the straggling remains of a few hardy strands of the native fauna. Look closer, closer still and a section of the dark, basalt hillside resolves to a deeper, inky blackness, a cave, old as the hillside it set into. Lying outside, cast aside where it surrendered to the incessant squalls is an ancient metal sign. Barely legible, faded black lettering set upon a white, rust streaked background reads the moniker “Dolt Domination Troupe – Inventors of Excel based quality programing”.
Inside, lit by the flickering light of a single solitary candle sits three hooded figures. The first stirs from deep contemplation of the oily flame. He takes breath in preparation, and then gags, turning a whiter shade of pale he promptly collapses in a quivering heap on the floor. The second gazes unpitying at his hapless colleague, and hisses through clenched teeth, “told the silly sod not to breathe heavy, them whale fat candles may be 10 for an Isk, but they ain’t half pungent.”
The first recovers and drags himself back to his place by the candle, he takes a series of shallow panting breaths, pre-oxygenating on the few molecules of clean air which had not fled the burning dead whale, powered assault:
Community Manager DDT Wensleydale: Righto lads, I’ve been hearing some right bad news from the forums. It appears the Buffoons are contemplating leaving us and departing for pastures new. Some one called Ellie Dominatrix or something. At least that’s who I think the “in game mail” was from, addressed to Kittens.
The Second Shadowy figure swears violently
CEO DDT: The swine’s. I sold my soul to that two timing mother lover. I promised my second born and everything. Now first chance he gets, he’s off gallivanting around with some new, younger floozy.
Okay, no use crying over spilled seal milk, how many we loose and how’s it going to affect the bottom line?
Community Support: Hmm, last count there are ten thousand forum accounts registered to known Buffon Squad and Associates, though the vast majority are alts there’s no way I can tell exactly.
The third figure raises his head. Milky blue eyes stare myopically over a pair of heavy horn-rimmed glasses. He gives a polite, almost inaudible cough.
Finance Director DDT Slightly Off Brie: Chief, I’ve been running the numbers for such and eventuality. Once you take into account the sock puppet co-efficient, remove the in-game funded accounts and divide the result by the sum of infinity minus one you end up with a grand total of, 6934 – Epsilon to the power of 6 and a bit. Then remove the tax allowance we claim from the government for Care in the Community.
CEO DDT: Come on Finance – how much?
Finance: 3
CEO DDT: What 3000 paying accounts, my god.
Finance: No Chief 3 accounts.
There appears a slight gleam of hope in Cheddars eyes, his perennial stoop lessens and he grows an inch in the warm glow of the now seemingly aromatic candle.
CEO DDT: I need to confirm this get me the Buffoon phone - stat.
To Be Continuum - if I can be bothered
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Haven't read back through all the posts, but this caught my eye and reminded me of something...
Not Goonswarm, but another group who 'emerged' from certain gameplay mechanics within Eve Online. They specialise in destroying expensive ships in Eve's Hi-sec; by doing so repeatedly, they end up being killed, by the in-game mechanics, within about 15 seconds of leaving any station in any ship bigger than their pod.
Here's all the detail of how they do it: http://www.minerbumping.com/p/blog-page.html
In particular, check out the section on 'Concord manipulation'. Concord is Eve's unavoidable, unkillable police force. And here's instructions on how to go about killing players right under their noses. Yes, you still lose your ship....but the asymmetric losses, compared to the ships that you destroy, can be enormous.
It's an interesting insight into the lengths players will go to to cirvumvent in-game restrictions. Personally, I think it borders on insane genius, but then I was never on the receiving end of it.
I'm not saying 'this is exactly what will happen here', just showing an example of the deviousness/imagination people will apply to gaming the rules.
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Ooh, even better, today's blog post is actually very good reading, given we're talking about how power-blocs can influence the game in a way some would consider negative: http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/06/two-years-of-code-part-2.html
That was a good, if long read.
After glacing over at The Code, it appears that the group was established to rid the game of one of its most notorious and universally reviled scourges. I'm not talking about Goons. I'm not talking about TAPI or BoB or m0o. I'm talking about AFK miners.
So in effect this activity (on cursory inspection it can't be considered griefing) is emergent gameplay to fix something where CCP has failed for years on end. I doubt there are any legitimate human (non-bot, non-AFK) miners in high sec left, although I never mined in EVE, and stayed in null-sec.
Relevant to the discussion:
What's written between the lines is that the author is certain there were tactics and strategies which could have been used to defeat the ganks. Instead, the victims turned into meta-gaming and petitioned CCP, instead of figuring out said tactics.
This is exactly what I'm afraid of when the Goons or a similarly patient and resourceful group enters E: D : FD taking unnecessary action, and ruining the game and diminishing the challenge.
It was an extortion scam plain and simple, perfectly legal under EvE's rules of engagement. I'd only say it could be considered griefing if he targeted the same player time and time again. Then again everyone has a different definition
Extortion scam targeting AFK miners and bots, AFAICT. Both are lower than lawyers, HR representatives and child molesters in my book.
I get your concern.
EVE is very different to E: D though, in a number of important ways. Look at it from CCP's perspective here. They make their money not through selling the game client or expansions (both are free or a nominal charge), but through on-going monthly subscriptions. If players get honked off, and don't feel they can play the game, they'll cancel their subs and CCP lose money. It is very much in CCP's interest to evolve the game to how they perceive their customers want it. Loudest voice wins.
There are no subs in E: D. FD are selling the client at a premium, and charging for expansions. There is also the prospect of micro transactions in the game. This is where they will make their money - and once they've got it, beyond being the "nice guys" they are, they're not going to bend over backwards to ensure that every single player is happy all of the time. They have stated that they are making the game that they want, and have so far shown great resilience in changing that over arching vision despite several loud dissenting voices on a number of areas. Bottom line, it's their game - and if you don't like something - tough toenails.
Additionally, in EVE there is only one way to play, and one single server. It's their way or the high way. With E: D, there are multiple ways of playing - either online with everyone, online with your friends only, online on your own, or offline completely. There will always be a way for you to get your money's worth from the game... even if one game mode becomes unpalatable. FD do not need to keep your continued business. They would like it I'm sure, but it's not an absolute necessity for them that they keep you sweet.
Thirdly, EVE has no anti-griefing policy to speak of. Using game mechanics to group together and dominate is an intrinsic part of the game. In E: D it's a little different, because there are clear anti-griefing mechanisms in place, proposed notions of hiding who is a player and who isn't, and there is no in-built game mechanic to group together & organise a large number of players. So FD have basically come at the problem from both ends. Deny players the tools, and have clear policies which punish offenders who use metagaming to get around the lack of tools to the detriment of other players.
Really, the only similarity with EVE and E: D is that both are set in space. In terms of game mechanics, they are completely different animals.
TLDR; Different business models, different priorities.
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It is an extortion scam - that is what makes it 'NOT griefing', under Eve's Ts and Cs.
It clearly started with the player being frustrated by people mining AFK - not helped by the fact that CCP seem to have designed mining to be done AFK, or not at all, as it involves no player interaction for long periods of time.
When players first petitioned CCP for being 'griefed', they looked into it, and it was agreed that so long as James was doing it for profit, not just to wind the other players up, then it was perfectly acceptable within Eve's rules. Hence the 10 million ISK annual fee (which is a trivial amount for Eve). Plus, a requirement for people to change their publically viewable bios, to state open support for James and what he was doing....
It has subsequently become much more about collecting tears, and sharing them on the blog page; and, honestly, some of the other players reactions (like "I will find you, and I will climb in through your window whilst you sleep, and I will murder your family" - seriously, people!) are eye-opening.
E: D is very different from Eve, for all the reasons other people have listed. But I don't think that will totally insulate it from the behaviours that arise in other MMOs that could be said to be 'not in the spirit of the game'. It may just mean they arise in different ways. Hopefully we won't be too negatively affected by them; certainly the various options for controlling/limiting who you end up playing with are probably the best tool to ensure that.
Sorry if this post is rambling and not making too much sense, haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet!
Debate is great and welcomed. The good thing is the EVE type behavior will be punished in this game and these people will be sent to the "Cornfield". This game will not devolve into the cesspool of that game no matter how many people try to do this intentionally.
Sounds great, as long as "proper PVP" means "open-world PvP where station surroundings and highly populated systems are strongly policed, getting less and less policed the farther away you wander, where bounty system is balanced so that both PvP piracy and PvP bounty hunting are both viable occupations, and where deep space is FFA, anything goes"
I don't know what the frst two sentences mean.
They won't be, I think. Deciding to just pirate player ships, or just collect player bounties will not work. You can't ignore the rest of the Elite setting like that.
+1 and the arch-butt Mittens has expressed a clear interest. While I welcome Frontier taking their money, I dearly hope all their attery will fail, preferably in a hilarious and frustrating manner for them.
Likewise, I think this thread has been interesting because it demonstrates one main camp - We want Goonsquad and their like to fail. Divided into two sub-camps. Those who think they'll fail and those who worry they'll succeed.
We can both agree to keep an eye out from now on (if I'm right we won't have to wait more than a couple of months to see the meta-game begin) and together see that they'll fail in both the game and the metagame of controlling the forums.
The Life and Times of An Elite Procrastinator - Part the Fourth in a Trilogy of Two and a Bit.
Part 1: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=502603&postcount=148
Part 2: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=504825&postcount=264
Meanwhile back at BSF HQ. Kittens, Ops and Int are gathered round a table placed strategically in the center of the room. Occupying their full attention, a heavy tome, it’s cracked spine declaring brashly “The Penguin Junior Galactic Encyclopedia. Ages 3 to 5.”
Suddenly a neatly manicured finger stabs forwards, the nail retaining a hint of last nights chartreuse polish that the acetone had failed to dispel.
INT: Look at that one, can we live there Boss, can we?
CEO: Gomeisa why would you want to live there, it looks a long way from Sol.
INT: But Gomeisa sounds funny and if you say it really fast Gonorr……
CEO: That’ll do Int, no we need somewhere closer to the pubbies, can’t grief if there’s no targets. Plus you know what happened last time we had them caged up. Half of them immediately tried to scam the other half and they nearly tore each other apart smack-talking in local. It cost us millions to replace the ships they destroyed ganking each other.
Suddenly a jaunty tune starts to play, Yackety Sax instantly recognisable to any Benny Hill aficionados. The melody abruptly silenced as Ops yanks the telephone receiver from its cradle. The other two return to poring over the “Handy Fun Sized Pull out and Pop Up Map of the Stars - Pages 8 to 10”.
Behind the two, Ops engages in an animated conversation with the telephone, eventually he hangs up and returns to complete the triad at the table.
OPS: ER Boss, that was DDT on the blower, they’ve heard we’re off.
CEO: Really, how’d they take it?
OPS: Not too sure. It was a bit hard to hear them over the sound of champagne corks popping and what sounded like a party. One minute they were thanking us for our support and ensuring that the game remained so niche, unsullied by the burden of popularity. Then they were offering to box all our stuff and send it on. Almost like they couldn’t wait to get rid of us.
CEO: Must have been someone’s birthday. Talking of moving on, how’s it going amongst the cannon fodder?
OPS: Most of them are fine, they’ve nothing to pack as we own them lock stock and barrel. Some of the more established lads are a bit reticent; they’ve got billions tied up in the markets.
CEO: Get a grip of them, it’s easy to get rid of your stuff, I managed it months ago.
INT: But Boss, didn’t you have to? After that unfortunate incident with the suicidal miner and the pre-prepared powerpoint presentation.
Ops leans across and whispers urgently to Int.
OPS: Int we don’t talk about KittensGate, you know that.
OPS:Oh shoot he’s gone catatonic again. Go and get the smelling salts.
Part 1: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=502603&postcount=148
Part 2: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=504825&postcount=264
Meanwhile back at BSF HQ. Kittens, Ops and Int are gathered round a table placed strategically in the center of the room. Occupying their full attention, a heavy tome, it’s cracked spine declaring brashly “The Penguin Junior Galactic Encyclopedia. Ages 3 to 5.”
Suddenly a neatly manicured finger stabs forwards, the nail retaining a hint of last nights chartreuse polish that the acetone had failed to dispel.
INT: Look at that one, can we live there Boss, can we?
CEO: Gomeisa why would you want to live there, it looks a long way from Sol.
INT: But Gomeisa sounds funny and if you say it really fast Gonorr……
CEO: That’ll do Int, no we need somewhere closer to the pubbies, can’t grief if there’s no targets. Plus you know what happened last time we had them caged up. Half of them immediately tried to scam the other half and they nearly tore each other apart smack-talking in local. It cost us millions to replace the ships they destroyed ganking each other.
Suddenly a jaunty tune starts to play, Yackety Sax instantly recognisable to any Benny Hill aficionados. The melody abruptly silenced as Ops yanks the telephone receiver from its cradle. The other two return to poring over the “Handy Fun Sized Pull out and Pop Up Map of the Stars - Pages 8 to 10”.
Behind the two, Ops engages in an animated conversation with the telephone, eventually he hangs up and returns to complete the triad at the table.
OPS: ER Boss, that was DDT on the blower, they’ve heard we’re off.
CEO: Really, how’d they take it?
OPS: Not too sure. It was a bit hard to hear them over the sound of champagne corks popping and what sounded like a party. One minute they were thanking us for our support and ensuring that the game remained so niche, unsullied by the burden of popularity. Then they were offering to box all our stuff and send it on. Almost like they couldn’t wait to get rid of us.
CEO: Must have been someone’s birthday. Talking of moving on, how’s it going amongst the cannon fodder?
OPS: Most of them are fine, they’ve nothing to pack as we own them lock stock and barrel. Some of the more established lads are a bit reticent; they’ve got billions tied up in the markets.
CEO: Get a grip of them, it’s easy to get rid of your stuff, I managed it months ago.
INT: But Boss, didn’t you have to? After that unfortunate incident with the suicidal miner and the pre-prepared powerpoint presentation.
Ops leans across and whispers urgently to Int.
OPS: Int we don’t talk about KittensGate, you know that.
OPS:Oh shoot he’s gone catatonic again. Go and get the smelling salts.
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I'm Dead aren't I
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