Avoiding Group Control...

[Pyros]

it seems simple enough to avoid, single player engaged.

I hope there will be no need for that


Anyway, I'm not overly concerned. Some of the player behavior discussed is perfectly acceptable. But the ability for players, by themselves, destabilizing or controlling entire systems is doubtful.

It is still too early to have n insight over effective emerging behavior, but the instances, lack of obvious choke points and the NPC capacity being of an higher order is something that goes a long way to deter group control.

In principle 20 PC cannot control a somewhat developed system, much less a central one.

 

[MonochromeChaos]

Allies that slave their drives together will always be placed in the same instance IIRC.

So...assuming you get a gang of twenty, you jump to a new system, you'll all be placed in the same instance...

- which will not be an existing instance which contains anyone that has any one of you on their block list
- which will only be an existing instance if one exists containing 12 players or fewer, none of whom have any one of you on their block list
- which will be biased towards matching you with players on your own friends list...

...which means, most likely, instances filling up with other members of GS.

And the rest of us happily doing our own thing, with our own buddies, who are on our friends list.

GS create a 'blockade' to a system - so long as I've got a couple of them on my block list, the system will create a new instance for me when I jump in. End result? I don't even see them.

Once again - it all comes down to instancing based off friends list/block list working. If that isn't delivered, than all bets are off, of course.

 

[CaptainSodom]

The 32-man limit in each system until a new instance is spawned is the key, and Achilles' Heel.

How I'd gatecamp, blockade, or shut down most routes if I was a Goon:

1. Put 20-30 people in highly trafficked but lightly policed systems. That is less than 32 people (duh), so any individual or small group jumping into the system would be in the same instance as the Goons.
2. Interdict the victims, overwhelm them with your superior numbers, blow the poor *******s up, take their loot, post killmail on EDGoonsFTW.com, collect tears on forums.
3. Rinse, repeat.

Haven't played the game (in Standard Beta), so no idea if the above is a workable idea. And I have no idea how to prevent the above - even concerted player-run in-game efforts would be futile, as any player policing force would just spill over to a second instance of the system.

edit: hmm, you could get around that by sending more than 32 minus [# of Goon in system]. The spillover players would spawn in a second instance of the system, and be safe from Goons.

Then again, if I were Goons, I'd have a secondary group of 20-30 Goons in a nearby system, ready to take over the second instance. Anyone saying "that's ridiculous, no on would go through that trouble" has never played against Goons. end edit

As to your suggestions:

A) The hated transponder or non-identificating of player ships. B) Random hyperspace spots, there's no one 'entry point'. C) Not giving corporation mechanics ever. For ever really good reason (like the First Great Expedition) there is another that will abuse the mechanics.

Won't comment on IDENT since I don't really grok the concept, yet, although I know it in broad strokes.

B might work, but with up to 31 people in a system and if interdiction (jump or SC) is ever an option, might not be enough

C will not work, period. There is no need for in-game grouping or corp mechanics due to TS and off-game forums and communication.

Same with trying to limit group or corp sizes. Goons would just form smaller groups, and collect them into platoons and companies, using TS to coordinate.

(3) Assuming they manage to get, say, 20 people in the same system across a number of instances, you only need ONE of them to be on your block list and you won't be instanced with them - assuming that works as has been discussed in the DDF. So you don't need all x-thousand of them on your block list, a decent enough selection of them will do.

Easy work-around: don't group up, organize via TS.

 

[MonochromeChaos]

Hmmm

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

There are ways round players being on your ignore list; I had thought it was more black and white than it is.

Interesting.

 

[Space_Killer69]

Here's one to ramp up the paranoia level:

I posit the OP is a Goon (He's actually the Mittani). Now what's the purpose of the thread?










Now can you see how futile it is to worry about what may be. The best thing to do is deal with the issues as they arise.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Know your enemy:

The first strategy for totalitarianism is to restrict the permissible travel of the population.

The second is intervention, manipulation and domination of the economy.

Here's a few thread themes (not literal)that may (or may not) fire some synapses:

• Why do we need 400 billion star systems?
  
• PVP this, PVE that, Carebears suck etc.
  
• "I don't mind paying a subscription if it means we get client-server and good network architecture"
  
• P2P is broken and should be switched immediately or [insert doom laden consequence of choice].
  
• Why can't I have an autopilot for this, that and the other.
  
• Why can't we see all the prices for all the stuff in every system (perfect system exploration tracking mechanism there).

There are others and some/all maybe just be motivated by naivety of game design, when there are highly motivated and strategically talented groups out there (Goons are not the only group), but the phrase "be careful what you wish for" most definitely applies.

Other threads however are not naïve at all and are just one aspect of a larger strategic play, which probably began even before kickstarter.

So far FD appear to be cognisant of the history of Eve and are acting (or not) accordingly to preserve the vision of the game and probably the main anti-GS mechanic is the 400 billion star systems and the bubble technology (which is dynamic and follows players unlike Eve's grids) being intrinsically linked to the network code.

There will be a nexus point though soon when the fuel mechanics and the ability to be self sufficient using fuel scooping is implemented, as it makes strategy no. 1 very difficult.

The economy is a different matter though and mining will play a large part here, as even CCP were taken aback by the tenacity and motivation of the scale of operations and the rapid accumulation of wealth in Eve in its early days.

 

[MonochromeChaos]

Know your enemy:

Let me give you another quote....

"Do not ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity."

A lot of the forum grumblings are the exact same topics that come up on the forums of every MMO....

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Let me give you another quote....

"Do not ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity."

A lot of the forum grumblings are the exact same topics that come up on the forums of every MMO....

LOL can I counter with "the surest way to provoke an aggressor is through the naïve wishing for peace"....."won't you gentlemen have a Pepsi?"

I think I hedged my bets with the "careful what you wish for" bit

 

[Seonid]

Now can you see how futile it is to worry about what may be. The best thing to do is deal with the issues as they arise.

Same principle as the griefing concerns when the very game measures designed to affect that are not yet implemented. We shall see.

My apologies to the people gravely offended (judging by the -rep messages) at my light-hearted initial comment, no tone of voice plugin for forums. Mea culpa.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Same principle as the griefing concerns when the very game measures designed to affect that are not yet implemented. We shall see.

My apologies to the people gravely offended (judging by the -rep messages) at my light-hearted initial comment, no tone of voice plugin for forums. Mea culpa.

You're getting negs? I still don't have any, despite my run-ins with the big boys in other threads.

Damn it, whose toes do I need to stomp on to get negrepped in this bih?

 

[JeffRyan]

You're getting negs? I still don't have any, despite my run-ins with the big boys in other threads.

Damn it, whose toes do I need to stomp on to get negrepped in this bih?

I have a non-neg-rep policy. I've only done it once and I felt badly about it afterwards. I've only ever reported once and only because I was sorta asked to.

Here's one to ramp up the paranoia level:

I posit the OP is a Goon (He's actually the Mittani). Now what's the purpose of the thread?

Mwhahahaha*cough*

Now can you see how futile it is to worry about what may be. The best thing to do is deal with the issues as they arise.

I think there's enough of a thematic overlap, enough noise on the EVE forums and E3s favourable reception that our public image is on the up and up. And if we have stayed under their radar it's only because we have in terms of PR been overshadowed by SC, which for this has been a good thing.

It isn't paranoia to say they're coming, they are. It's only really today that I've given some thought to what that means. And striking a thematic pose, I think the community has to begin to accept that and adjust their mindsets to what's a-coming. *Melodramatic lightning crash*

I love this community and I love Elite Dangerous, but we're going to have to HTF... err see that as we close in on launch the meta-game is about to begin. I lost EVE to the Mittani and his ilk, I'm not going to let that happen here. *heroic pose*

 

[Cody]

I have a non-neg-rep policy.

Ditto - but we are probably unusual in that respect.

 

[JeffRyan]

They will come, they're already here. Some members of the DDF are goons, some members of FD's staff will be goons - the demographic of ED Players compared to Something Awful Forum members almost guarantees it.

That and "Mittens" likes the game...

http://themittani.com/news/e3-2014-elite-dangerous-impressions

One thing that the forums do need is a refresher in Forum PVP - Post padding, Necro edits and all the rest

I missed that article... I'm gonna add it to the OP.

 

[veep]

The goons did EVE a great service: They forced CCP to decide what they wanted their game to be. CCP did and their answer was to ditch the role-play pretense and focus on a game that worked from its rules alone.

The same decision awaits E: D and with luck Frontier have long made it.

 

[JeffRyan]

The goons did EVE a great service: They forced CCP to decide what they wanted their game to be. CCP did and their answer was to ditch the role-play pretense and focus on a game that worked from its rules alone.

The same decision awaits E: D and with luck Frontier have long made it.

I think Frontier want to avoid the griefing and EVE is in the back of thier minds. Funnily enough I think PvPers and Non-PvPers should agree, Goonswarm dominating ED would be bad for both.

 

[veep]

Goonswarm dominating ED would be bad for both.

So when a master chess player wins every tournament, that ruins the game for everyone? Aha, I get it.

 

[JeffRyan]

So when a master chess player wins every tournament, that ruins the game for everyone? Aha, I get it.

It's not chess. And I admit he's very very good at what he does. But he uses his powers for the benefit of his tribe.

 

[Zieman]

So when a master chess player wins every tournament, that ruins the game for everyone? Aha, I get it.

And football is just like chess, but without he dice...

 

[veep]

I was trying to say that this whole fear of "dominance" only makes sense if you assume that everyone has to play against the dominator. Luckily chess tournaments don't work that way. And neither does EVE, by the way.

So that makes it all quite childish in my opinion.

 

[Zieman]

I was trying to say that this whole fear of "dominance" only makes sense if you assume that everyone has to play against the dominator. Luckily chess tournaments don't work that way. And neither does EVE, by the way.

So that makes it all quite childish in my opinion.

Thanks for the clarification. Cheers!