Avoiding Group Control...

[Cosmos]

Read the OP buddy, this isn't about taking the MP out of Elite, you know I'm for that as much as you are. It's about stopping large groups with a set agenda from wrecking the game.

The thing is whilst I fully understand and appreciate the concern there are some issues that are undeniable facts. Players playing in concert can affect the background simulation. Therefore, more players acting in a similar fashion are going to achieve more effective results than those chipping away on their own and we can't be asking Frontier to step in any time something happens that we don't like.

Things are going to change in game. Democracies will fall, Anarchies will emerge and powerplays will be part of a meta game. If peeps want to pretend this isn't going to happen by objecting to tools and features for normal players to organise themselves and respond then the meta game will fall into the hands of already established and organised groups, who'll have an advantage over regular players - but that said, the galaxy is a large place.

Its also rather troubling how the forum responds to those looking for other players. There was a recent thread, where one guy received a serious amount of abuse just for advertising for players for his guild.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

So... anyone else noticed an upswing in requests that would enable the sort of thing I was talking about in this thread?

In fairness, people coming to a new thing always try to make it just like an older thing they're used to. For example, the QWERTY keyboard survives to this day simply because people wanted their fancy new TV typewriters to work like the mechanical ones they already knew. Presumably the standard beta is drawing new people in, so we need to politely explain how things work to those that don't know any better. Having said that, I'm open to more efficient solutions than constant repetition of the same basic arguments

 

[Juniper]

In fairness, people coming to a new thing always try to make it just like an older thing they're used to. For example, the QWERTY keyboard survives to this day simply because people wanted their fancy new TV typewriters to work like the mechanical ones they already knew. Presumably the standard beta is drawing new people in, so we need to politely explain how things work to those that don't know any better. Having said that, I'm open to more efficient solutions than constant repetition of the same basic arguments

I tried this in another thread, and got my head bitten off by what I presume is an EVE player from his tone. They have a certain... brusqueness about them.

Anyhow Jeff, you are right. The forum war has begun. I'm inclined right now to just let them get on with it, and hope / assume FD will see it for what it is.

 

[Maruun]

I dont see it how they are able to "wreck the game" they cant crash markets because there is no storing for goods.

They cant control systems its a game about a player and its ship.
If they ran havok they will have havok with the police, if they go only to anarchy systems well then they can sit ther for all i care.

We ahve no Sovereign or stuff like that, no station building, fleet building masss combats.

So what is the worst they can do? Sit with 32 people in front of a station and never see a other player.

There is no "Guildsystem" or other stuff that makes managing huge numbers of players easy.

They dont have the Tools to control something, but EVERY player has control over with who he wants to play with.

ED is not even a real MMO, its a singleplayer with automatchmaking (by your own choice) to be able to play in coop with other players in a HUGE galaxy were the most is not even habtitated by any kind of cilivasation.

 

[Cosmos]

The forum war has begun.

This seems like hyperbole to me.

 

[Blinde]

( they win by making you lose the will to fight ).

I'm not entirely sure I agree.

Some people win by making you fight. That's what a lot of them want, win or lose.

Losing just means they need to up their game and get more organised.

Win or lose, they end up with the game they want.

 

[Steve 67]

Considering the instances discussion to date and the little we factually know about how the mechanics will finally work, I have to say I put my trust in Frontier. These guys are aware of the problems and if they don't naturally code out serious structural mechanical issues, I'm sure they will manufacture procedure(s) to combat it via policing & penalties etc. If that doesn't deter mass malicious griefing we can always form a counter culture to infiltrate & post out daily news feeds RSS/email/SMS. Espionage anyone?

 

[Juniper]

This seems like hyperbole to me.

To quote Tony Blair: "Now is not the time for hyperbole or sound bites. But we stand on the brink of history."

 

[JeffRyan]

Sorry Jeff but that OP is a scare post if ever I read one. Goons dominate by numbers, yes? There are lets wildly assume 10.000 of them marshaling to come to Elite and you guys have 3 to 5 times that number at least, the advantage of people actually familiar with their tactics ( I fought alongside them for one of my stints in 0.0 during the first great war , I was aligned with RA who were nominally allied with the goons then) and the advantage of home turf, experience and limited player instances and what do you guys do? Panic...Christ you may as well hand the game on a platter with this mentality ( they win by making you lose the will to fight ).

Also Jeff instead of fighting guild implementation you should advocate for it so that it can be fully regulated by the game, perhaps even set hard limits to guildies in a instance so the crushing numbers of goons mean nothing.

Keep it up though like this and I will start suspecting that Mittani has reactivated the GIA and is already playing merry hell in here sowing panic and discord.

Who said anything about panicking and losing the will to fight? I think this thread makes it very clear that a lot of people here are familiar with the sort of tactics used both in the game (we have many many defenses in place, not that I agree with them all, but we do) so game domination will be incredibly hard for a single group.

Also by raising this issue now and seeing the forums change the way they have in the last month it gives the community time to adjust and if there is any panic get over it before the game itself start.

I'm far less worried now about the game itself. This thread and a lot of the responses to it made it clear that whilst not impossible for a large group of players to cause havoc, it'd be a lot harder.

One misunderstanding that crops up a lot though is that with these limitations in place and the original piece in the OP makes clear, any large group could NOT use the tactics in EVE. We're too different. They have to adapt and GS do adapt, EVE isn't the only game they play. I'm also less worried about GS trying to break the game, from what I understand a lot of them actually like it. And I know more than a few have been here since Alpha.

However that doesn't stop them from attacking the forum and community and I've seen a large upswing lately in pro-EVE-type mechanics. A lot of us have, which is why Juniper has gone from sitting on the fence (he was actually against me if you read earlier in this thread) to agreeing with me.

I don't think there's an orchestrated, co-ordinated attack yet, quite simply EVE players (not all are GS) making the obvious migration now that we have more public awareness and wanting some things from their own game implemented here. But it does serve as a warning as to what's coming.

And I've noticed that people who accuse me of scaremongering (rather than raising awareness of the issue) tend to be the same people who've come here from EVE.

 

[Hellhawk666]

...The forum war has begun...

Seriously?

 

[Obsidian Ant]

This seems like hyperbole to me.

Just give it a few more months, and wait and see if this forum as the same pleasant community. It will be a very rare case indeed if a wonderful community like this one can survive a wide open beta or full retail release without being seriously damaged by the complaints and aggressive attitudes of all the new arrivals.

I'm not saying this is what will happen to these forums. But this is what has happened to almost every other game community. And that's not hyperbole, it's fact.

 

[Juniper]

Seriously?

No, not entirely. I would have thought that was obvious from my follow up post.

However, what Jeff says above is 100% correct. We need to be on guard and aware of it, and he's not wrong that the last month or so we have seen a large upturn in the number of players (good) who are repeatedly going on about EVE mechanics they want in the game (bad). Some are even saying it's a commercial necessity. :S

Given the nature of the EVE community (which I was part of, and left for the same reason) it's only a matter of time before they become organised & start pushing en masse. At the very least, that will make the forums poorer. The EVE community isn't something I would like replicated here.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It will be interesting / predictable / boring after over-repetition to read the inevitable posts when the Alliance mechanic is introduced - "where's this feature - guilds need it", "I want to do that, why is it not possible", "why no instant-travel - everyone else is so far away", etc..

 

[Meritz]

All I can say to this thread is: first world problems.

Large player organizations are a good thing. They'll bring mucho space opera to the universe. And if you don't like that they get together and occasionally raid a system, get out of the system. You'll have 99.999.999.999 others to choose from.

It's not like they can camp the gates and lock you in. Besides, the tactics they can use to "wreck" a system will work only in less secure ones, highly policed systems will be way too much hassle - FD already said police response will be based on an escalating model.

The reason Eve players are looking at ED is simple: ED offers something fresh and frankly, it does many things better than Eve. I know ED offers pretty much everything I ever wanted Eve to have - gateless space travel, twitch based flight and combat, eventually getting up and about your ship and stations and seamless landings on planets.

Will new players bring their own ideas and desires to the forums? Of course. That's what players do. It's not an attack just because it is different. FD, you see, are not obligated to listen.

 

[Space_Killer69]

All I can say to this thread is: first world problems.

Large player organizations are a good thing.

A matter of opinion, and judging by the lack substantive answers to the simple question?

You have grouping, you have Wings/Alliances, why do you want a Guild?

Not quite such a good thing for ED.

The reason Eve players are looking at ED is simple: ED offers something fresh and frankly, it does many things better than Eve. I know ED offers pretty much everything I ever wanted Eve to have - gateless space travel, twitch based flight and combat, eventually getting up and about your ship and stations and seamless landings on planets.

Will new players bring their own ideas and desires to the forums? Of course. That's what players do. It's not an attack just because it is different. FD, you see, are not obligated to listen.

It's not different, it the same old stuff regurgitated with no attempt to understand the gameplay of ED, no attempt to understand the impact on the gameplay of ED. So understandably given short shrift when repeatedly asked for without thought.

Apologies if this comes across as Grumpy. What can I say I'ts Sunday and my hangover has kicked in.

Quick wallet, watch and spectacles check (including post history) reveals all is in order and the temptation to drunk post has been successfully resisted - winner.

 

[Storagebod]

I can actually think of ways that the proposed grouping mechanisms make it much easier for large groups of players to have dramatic influences on single systems...SP and private groups for example are an extremely powerful weapon in the hands of a large co-ordinated group.

But you are never going to be able to stop the large co-ordinated group either in-game or out-of-game. And it doesn't matter whether you put in controls in the game or not...there's enough support in the game already for the groups and if I was seriously going to arrange a group spectacular...I'd organise outside of the game anyway...

That's why so many guilds have ended up with their own websites, fora and other ways to co-ordinate...

We need to be sensible, we need to monitor behaviours...I believe strongly that FD will stomp on anything that they believe goes against the spirit of the game. I also expect that at times, my views will not be the same as FD's or at least my personal interpretation of the vision will conflict. This is the same for any of us.

The original core-backers do have the right to point at the original proposals when the see things that are in conflict; FD have the right to say that they have decided that for the game's future, they need to do something different.

We have the right at that point to tell FD to stick their game...or not as the case may be.

I'd like to think I'm going to get several years of great play out of this game. I hold out great hopes for it and FD.

Let's try to move to the launch of the game with the spirit of cheerful optimism (but keep boiling those cauldrons of pitch in the case of unwanted visitors).

 

[Pyros]

In fairness, people coming to a new thing always try to make it just like an older thing they're used to. For example, the QWERTY keyboard survives to this day simply because people wanted their fancy new TV typewriters to work like the mechanical ones they already knew. Presumably the standard beta is drawing new people in, so we need to politely explain how things work to those that don't know any better. Having said that, I'm open to more efficient solutions than constant repetition of the same basic arguments

It is natural that players want something new, but familiar. And players unfamiliar with Elite "vision" will naturally propose to add things from their experience with other games. Actually all players (ok, many), new or older, have ideas for adding or changing stuff. And a game vision evolves, but it is up to FD/DB to define the game path.

I doubt that ED will be steered towards a large group based game anytime soon, as that is not the current focus.

 

[Seonid]

Time to précis 38 pages.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

It will be interesting / predictable / boring after over-repetition to read the inevitable posts when the Alliance mechanic is introduced - "where's this feature - guilds need it", "I want to do that, why is it not possible", "why no instant-travel - everyone else is so far away", etc..

Yeah this would be my concern too. FD devoting time and steering the game down another direction which effects us all - something CCP did in early 2004 when the lone wolf and small corp gamestyles were brushed under the carpet in favour of the new mega alliances that began emerging at the time.

Those of us who don't want Eve-style alliances should be just as vocal about FD implementing an ignore entire alliance option if such alliances ever worm their way into the game.

Personally I don't think it will ever get to that point no matter how many drones come on here and campaign for Eve: Dangerous.

 

[JeffRyan]

Time to précis 38 pages.

That isn't the message.