Avoiding Group Control...

[Bromley86]

There was a recent thread, where one guy received a serious amount of abuse just for advertising for players for his guild.

That was inexcusable. Aside from anything else, trying to shout down a group that will likely eventually be larger and more organised is always going to end in tears. Anyway, there's no better way to test the impact of guilds than to have a number of experienced guilds in beta.

There are lets wildly assume 10.000 of them marshaling to come to Elite and you guys have 3 to 5 times that number at least . . . and what do you guys do? Panic.

You're being disingenuous here. You know that 10,000 organised and motivated people will always defeat 50,000 disorganised and unfocussed people. Adding an ability to organise in-game will likely aid the organised group more than the disorganised one, as the latter cannot even be described as a group.

 

[NoirWolf]

Yeah this would be my concern too. FD devoting time and steering the game down another direction which effects us all - something CCP did in early 2004 when the lone wolf and small corp gamestyles were brushed under the carpet in favour of the new mega alliances that began emerging at the time.

Those of us who don't want Eve-style alliances should be just as vocal about FD implementing an ignore entire alliance option if such alliances ever worm their way into the game.

Personally I don't think it will ever get to that point no matter how many drones come on here and campaign for Eve: Dangerous.

If you ever did play EVE you would know lone wolves and small corps do just fine even now in EVE if they play smart and know how to work with or around de larger power blocks ( NPC null sec is often used, Provi block, wormhole space, etc, etc ). As is you probably quit when you saw that the maelstrom that was null in 04 was settling and you couldn't adapt which is perfectly within your rights but do not mistake opinion for fact.

That isn't the message.

"The war has begun."
If goons are already here since alpha expect them to be causing dissention in the community. They won't be griefing either so have fun spotting them as you hand the game to them on platter with threads that basically equate to : Trust no one who even hints at game improvements based on past experience. This is of course utterly ignoring that even large groups in EVE do not have a direct saying in what features do get put into a game ( clamoring for balances or fixes you could say but even there CCP focuses on what affects their core audience, in high sec, first ) so downright saying in the ED community that they could by sheer force of numbers is...kinda hopeful of their power and pessimistic of FD naivety ( if however they make a good compelling proposal within the vision of the game which does not alter it then you would be in the wrong to oppose them ).

 

[Adept]

All I can say to this thread is: first world problems.

Large player organizations are a good thing. They'll bring mucho space opera to the universe. And if you don't like that they get together and occasionally raid a system, get out of the system.

Very subjective. The reasons you feel are the good things, are bad things to many of us. That "good thing" is just your opinion you try to push as obviously true.

 

[ICDP]

All I can say to this thread is: first world problems.

Large player organizations are a good thing. They'll bring mucho space opera to the universe. And if you don't like that they get together and occasionally raid a system, get out of the system. You'll have 99.999.999.999 others to choose from.

I disagree, the space opera will be provided by the already existing alliances and factions within the ED universe. The ED universe is going to be dynamic and having player based guilds could very well ruin that dynamic. You essentially want to introduce guilds and organisations that are not part of the ED lore. In your opinion it would make ED a richer experience. I and many others would absolutely detest the very notion that a bunch of players in an imaginary non ED lore "guild", were capable of influencing our experience of the ED universe. I cannot fathom why the already existing factions of Alliance, Federation or Empire within the game are not enough for these people.

It's not like they can camp the gates and lock you in. Besides, the tactics they can use to "wreck" a system will work only in less secure ones, highly policed systems will be way too much hassle - FD already said police response will be based on an escalating model.

I don't want them wrecking ANY systems, anarchy or otherwise. I want my experience to be based on the lore within the game design. Not some group of idiots called the "goon squad", or some other pathetic EVE like guilds.

The reason Eve players are looking at ED is simple: ED offers something fresh and frankly, it does many things better than Eve. I know ED offers pretty much everything I ever wanted Eve to have - gateless space travel, twitch based flight and combat, eventually getting up and about your ship and stations and seamless landings on planets.

Can you not see the irony in that paragraph? Eve players crave something new, but they want it to be just like Eve. Seriously, either they want something new or they don't. Either embrace what ED are planning or stay with Eve. It sounds to me like most Eve'rs simply want ED to be their Eve with cockpits.

Will new players bring their own ideas and desires to the forums? Of course. That's what players do. It's not an attack just because it is different. FD, you see, are not obligated to listen.

Then with all due respects they should have got on board when they had the chance to influence the direction ED is going. Imagine the uproar over on the Eve forums if a load of people from here started demanding that Eve made cockpits and removed the guilds.

Oh I await with bated breath your response to that last sentence, I would guess something like, "But that is not what Eve is about". Well Elite Dangerous is not about imaginary guilds controlling almost every single aspect of the gameplay. Ever since the OP created this thread highlighting his worry that ED might become Eve, the pro Eve'rs have been trying to push their agenda that guilds are a good thing and would somehow enrich the gameplay experience.

 

[NoirWolf]

Very subjective. The reasons you feel are the good things, are bad things to many of us. That "good thing" is just your opinion you try to push as obviously true.

As you are yours. Brom pointed out rightly earlier that 50k is less than 10k in effectiveness if disorganized... I wonder what you would call an organized group of players all working together in general...

Also IC's response eloquently points out the rigidity and lack of imagination some have when understanding wildly different views than them. You can have guilds rise and fall, get wiped out,etc and only the ones that one of the 3 like even appear in the history books as such and not some pirate rabble.

With or without em though my game will likely stay the same as I am a solo operator with a loose group of friends so yeah win/win for me anyway. The reason I am even broaching the subject really is to show that you guys already have people with the adversarial and quite toxic behavior you can see on many game forums including EVE's.

 

[JeffRyan]

That was inexcusable. Aside from anything else, trying to shout down a group that will likely eventually be larger and more organised is always going to end in tears. Anyway, there's no better way to test the impact of guilds than to have a number of experienced guilds in beta.



You're being disingenuous here. You know that 10,000 organised and motivated people will always defeat 50,000 disorganised and unfocussed people. Adding an ability to organise in-game will likely aid the organised group more than the disorganised one, as the latter cannot even be described as a group.

I agree, there's no reason to jump on recruiters in principle. I think though GEN_HAN__SOLO's antics and aggressive 'testing' and JOIN MYTEAMSPEAK caused a lot of that.

 

[ICDP]

Also IC's response eloquently points out the rigidity and lack of imagination some have when understanding wildly different views than them. You can have guilds rise and fall, get wiped out,etc and only the ones that one of the 3 even appear in the history books as such and not some pirate rabble.

This isn't about me or others being unable to see your point of view, it is about playing the game the way the FD are designing it. There are already factions within the game and the dynamic universe will be largely centered around them. Allowing thousands of people to form their own guilds and control systems would ruin that dynamic completely.

For example, if a guild were able to push their agenda by swarming instances with thousands of their players. What if they took over the Sol system? At that point we are no longer playing in an Elite universe as Sol would not a Federation core world, it would become part of the Gooniverse.

That is why I do not want Eve like guild mechanics in the game.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

If you ever did play EVE you would know lone wolves and small corps do just fine even now in EVE if they play smart and know how to work with or around de larger power blocks ( NPC null sec is often used, Provi block, wormhole space, etc, etc ). As is you probably quit when you saw that the maelstrom that was null in 04 was settling and you couldn't adapt which is perfectly within your rights but do not mistake opinion for fact.

I played from week one of release in 2003 until late 2009. Solo, in small groups, and even in an alliance at one point. I PvPd, solo'd, and fought in faction wars (stealth bombers ftw). I always enjoyed the solo experience more. My favorite times in Eve were when running through the m0o blockades of Mara and Passari, avoiding tank CEO and his camping Megathron in Vale of the Silent, and solo mining bistot deep in the Wildlands and having my alts bring it up to The Forge. I did all that solo. So yes it was possible to play that way, but I think I was lucky that I was there early on in the game and learned how to live under the noses of big alliances. I even competed in the first great space race organized by a dev (iircc late 2004ish) - who was later accused of leaking the route to his alliance mates that had gathered along it and popped all the contestants except the guy from that alliance! (but I digress ).

I was one of the first to mine for mercoxit, again all deep inside alliance controlled areas and again ran the blockades from 0.0 into high sec to get it refined.

But it became a chore, not fun anymore. Eventually I moved permanently to a 0.4 system and put everything I had into a POS and capital ship component blue prints and began building Carriers from the first day those blueprints appeared on the markets. Later still my agents produced a Deimos bpo for me and I added that into my manufacturing business. I ran POS's solo, made billions upon billions when a billion was worth something.

Point is, and with hindsight, I can look back and realise that I probably stopped enjoying exploring the game and doing PvP when it all became too organized thanks to the mega alliances. That, and when coupled with the direction CCP were heading became apparent, it felt like the game I signed up for became more and more niche, and drifted away from a world of opportunity and exploration to one of politics, meta-gaming, and artificial boundaries. And I do not want Elite to be steered down that same route.

Lone wolf was always my preferred style of play and I worked hard to adapt from one kind of lone wolf playstyle in those early days, to a completely different style for the last few years I played the game - namely solo manufacturing. And I tried everything in-between.

So in regards to Eve I've been there and done it. I find Elite appealing because its rekindled the memories I had in the very first year of playing Eve where I could enjoy the game solo and go pretty much where I liked and when I liked. If any of that alliance crap comes to ED I'll ditch the game sadly. I was sold on the one man vs the galaxy premise, and that's how I intend to play this game. If I want to be another Eve drone and group up, I'll go back to Eve. Its perfect for that kind of thing and has been for a decade.

Bottom line is, there is no need to have it recreated here - CCP have already nailed it and have a decade of refinements and experience behind them - I doubt FD could match or better that concept even if they wanted to (and thankfully they don't).

 

[NoirWolf]

This isn't about me or others being unable to see your point of view, it is about playing the game the way the FD are designing it. There are already factions within the game and the dynamic universe will be largely centered around them. Allowing thousands of people to form their own guilds and control systems would ruin that dynamic completely.

For example, if a guild were able to push their agenda by swarming instances with thousands of their players. What if they took over the Sol system? At that point we are no longer playing in an Elite universe as Sol would not a Federation core world, it would become part of the Gooniverse.

That is why I do not want Eve like guild mechanics in the game.

No one even mentioned territory control in my thread asides from those pushing against guilds. I do not want it and I have seen maybe 2 people so far who do so please stop generalizing and putting words into people's mouths.

I played from week one of release in 2003 until late 2009. Both solo, in small groups, and even in an alliance at one point. I PvPd, solo'd, and fought in faction wars (stealth bombers ftw). I always enjoyed the solo experience more. My favorite times in Eve were when running through the m0o blockades of Mara and Passari, avoiding tank CEO and his camping Megathron in Vale of the Silent, and solo mining bistot deep in the Wildlands and having my alts bring it up to The Forge. I did all that solo. So yes it was possible to play that way, but I think I was lucky that I was there early on in the game and learned how to live under the noses of big alliances. I even competed in the first great space race organized by a dev (iircc late 2004ish) - who was later accused of leaking the route to his alliance mates that had gathered along it and popped all the contestants except the guy from that alliance! (but I digress ).

I was one of the first to mine for mercoxit, again all deep inside alliance controlled areas and again ran the blockades from 0.0 into high sec to get it refined.

But it became a chore, not fun anymore. Eventually I moved permanently to a 0.4 system and put everything I had into a POS and capital ship component blue prints and began building Carriers from the first day those blueprints appeared on the markets. Later still my agents produced a Deimos bpo for me and I added that into my manufacturing business. I ran POS's solo, made billions upon billions when a billion was worth something.

Point is, and with hindsight, I can look back and realise that I probably stopped enjoying exploring the game and doing PvP when it all became too organized thanks to the mega alliances. That, and when coupled with the direction CCP were heading became apparent, it felt like the game I signed up for became more and more niche for me. Lone wolf was always my preferred style of play and I worked hard to adapt from one kind of lone wolf playstyle in those early days, to a completely different style for the last few years I played the game - namely solo manufacturing.

So in regards to Eve I've been there and done it. I find Elite appealing because its rekindled the memories I had in the very first year of playing Eve where I could enjoy the game solo and go pretty much where I liked and when I liked. If any of that alliance crap comes to ED I'll ditch the game sadly. I was sold on the one man vs the galaxy premise, and that's how I intend to play this game. If I want to be another Eve drone and group up, I'll go back to Eve. Its perfect for that kind of thing and has been for a decade.

Bottom line is, there is no need to have it recreated here - CCP have already nailed it and have a decade of refinements and experience behind them - I doubt FD could match or better that concept even if they wanted to (and thankfully they don't).

And that is all due more in part to game world size not player organization which is a natural thing especially with space being a premium. This is the same reason I paused from playing EVE and may go back if/when they put in much more space.

Either way gonna be playing Elite the way I wanted to play EVE: get a large ship, stock supplies and fuel, strap on some decent defenses and a lil bit of offensive punch and head into deep space for weeks or months at a time ( for a brief period this was possible in EVE after Apocrypha ).

 

[Iskariot]

I think that's sort of what happened with EVE. The health of CCP's original vision was dealt a serious blow via various corporations (Goons are more the nail in the coffin) and by the time they realised what was going on and how far it had gone they just embraced it. Was less work.

In that case there always is... wait for it.... single player off line.

Just not having to be bothered with other humans in my game never sounded so good.

 

[JeffRyan]

In that case there always is... wait for it.... single player off line.

Just not having to be bothered with other humans in my game never sounded so good.

Then they'll have won.

 

[Butch808]

But they won't have, thats just your perception.

 

[ICDP]

No one even mentioned territory control in my thread asides from those pushing against guilds. I do not want it and I have seen maybe 2 people so far who do so please stop generalizing and putting words into people's mouths.

Nice strawman, where in my post did I say that is what you wanted? I simply pointed out that having Eve like guilds the ability to group in large numbers, would result in those guilds attempting to control systems for their own agenda and not for the benefit of in game lore.

I don't want to play Elite: Guild wars.

 

[Wind195]

EVE has like what....10,000 star systems total.....ED has 400 billion...yeah good luck controlling that lol

 

[NoirWolf]

Nice strawman, where in my post did I say that is what you wanted? I simply pointed out that having Eve like guilds the ability to group in large numbers, would result in those guilds attempting to control systems for their own agenda and not for the benefit of in game lore.

I don't want to play Elite: Guild wars.

How in the 7 hells can you control a system in the current known version of the game? The only one creating strawmen is you because you equate a guild with something that could exert control...I mean sure with thousands of player they could in theory affect the balance of power between the factions at turning points Ina system if they managed to all show up but...after a certain number of people in EVE it is like herding cats and that has one instance...thousands via teamspeak from what distance in a dynamic galaxy across multiple instances? Possible but that's a brain hernia waiting to happen.

And this if the NPC faction won't detect their approach and reinforce their fleets.

 

[Juniper]

This thread seems to be going around in circles, so apologies, but just re-posting this as it may have been missed by people new to the thread that are repeating the same arguments about how E: D will be controlled by Goons...

So, to recap... the inbuilt game elements to counter whatever the Goonswarm attempt to do are:

• Instance limit of 32 players max.
• No territorial control possible.
• No player corporations / guilds.
• No player run markets.
• No manufacturing.
• No player owned persistent structures.
• Death outside Ironman is relatively painless.
• Exponential bounty system and NPC response.
• Possible hiding of who is a player and who isn't.
• No player council to be influenced or controlled.
• Private groups
• Single player.
• Enormous galaxy.
• A watchful player base, hardened by experiences in other games, who will not tolerate griefing.
• Ignore list which works on an account (not character) basis.

Any more for any more?

Don't know about you guys, but I'd say we're fairly safe.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

That isn't the message.

"The war has begun."

To be honest, I think you're missing a trick here - Jeff has practical concerns, but it sounds like he's offering to talk about ways of expressing it that don't trigger the irrational fear response you're concerned about. It sounds like you both actually agree on a lot of things, and could help each other if you looked past the disagreeable parts of each other's argument that you want to knock down, and focused on the agreeable parts you can build on.

 

[huskeonkel]

I'm not an EVE player, nor do I know a whole lot about that game. The things that people here claim that these goon types are/will be able to do in ED seem... improbable.

That is not to say that it is not possible, but it would require more focus, organisation and play not focused on personal gain than I would believe a group made up of griefers and game breakers are capable of in the long run. It is however always a good idea to be vigilant and mindful of these possibilities.

The people responsible for making this game have a very specific vision for ED and have to my knowledge stuck to that so far. David Braben seems to be very anti-griefer himself, so I'm sure they will have incorporated methods to combat any large scale game breaking actions. I'd be surprised if they were not aware of this thread and the potential impact a group such as those goons would have.

I have faith that FD will make one hell of a game with the required functionality to protect itself and its player base.

I myself do not plan to hang around the core systems all that much, so griefers can kiss my shiny metal chassis. The great unknown calls to me

Can you hear it?

 

[Iskariot]

Then they'll have won.

I do not mind. I don't want to pour energy into such things.
That is mainly why I stopped playing multiplayer nearly 15 years ago.
It just is not worth it. I'd rather be alone in the single player offline Elite universe than having to waste time and energy on that type of miserable human beings.

I want to enjoy and immerse myself in what FD is creating and I am not going to let people like that destroy the game I have been waiting for all those years.

I have my doubts about any kind of multi player interaction in any game, not just Elite. I have seen far too many losers online crapping all over games I love.
Avoiding mp completely gives me an invaluable peace of mind; Just me and my ship between the stars, immersing myself in this Elite Galaxy. Pure bliss I tell you.

Having said that I will most likely try out the multi player anyway .

 

[ICDP]

How in the 7 hells can you control a system in the current known version of the game?

Erm, isn't the main gist of this thread that it is feasibly possible for a well organised and determined group of people to control cores systems. Even given the current 32 player instancing limit?

If the OPs rumours and fears are correct then this Goonsquad are already attempting to influence the direction FD take with ED.

• Yes the current system makes it almost impossible for a guild to control systems.
• That does not mean they are not currently trying to influence the direction the game takes in the future.

The main OP states

"This may seem like scare-mongering, but the Goons are coming to Elite Dangerous and they WILL try to be the dominating force of the game. Their mindset calls out for it. My methodology above is how I'd do it if I had the numbers that the Goons have at their disposal (they have a LOT of people). Basically locking down key star systems by dominating the Principal Instance of those star systems with groups of players stationed around space stations in those systems or dominating the key hyperspace spot."