Balancing of NPC piracy

You actually get T9s with LTDs in the station instance? Reliably?

CMDR Screemonster would like to know your location.

Yes I have had type 9s with LTDs in the stations instance, I dont do much piracy on my main account so cannot say if its reliable or not.
I wasn't after LTDs so didn't stay long. Was just after rare salvage.
To be honest not sure which system it was, though it was one of the Anarchy's in the Z Team factions area. That bit I am sure of. :)
 
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The problem with piracy's game design is honestly most visible when you compare piracy missions to liberate missions - it's as though a lot of the time people on the design team forget that illegal options even exist. Smuggling missions still break if they offer a material reward and your store for that material is full.

Liberate - when allied, you're asked to fetch 4-8 tons of a particular, mission-specific commodity. The target is carrying exactly that amount of that commodity, and they also carry a bunch of other cargo that drops afterwards, that you can swipe and sell for some extra gravy if you're so inclined. When you hatchbreak them, the mission cargo drops first. The target is invariably wanted, so you don't get attention from the cops and you can blow them up for the bounty when you're done robbing them of you're so inclined.
Liberate missions are great.

Piracy missions - you're asked to fetch 90-130 tons of some commodity, which rules out all small and most medium ships for the task immediately. The target is not wanted, so you have to deal with the cops if you don't get them in an anarchy system. The target only carries that mission commodity, and if you steal extra then it's still marked as mission cargo so you don't even get to keep the bonus. You can't take them unless you have the cargo space available right now.
I very rarely take piracy missions. It's telling that the legal version of the "find some guy and steal their stuff" mission is worth doing and the illegal one is not.

As for signal sources? Threat 2 convoy signal sources will spawn a military T9 escorted by two condas, or two T9s accompanied by four vultures. If you scan them, they're carrying... a ton each of antiquities, plus some other dross. Jacking that cargo is not worth the time or risk of taking on those escorts. A low-volume high-value heist would be a great scenario, but the value of the stuff they carry isn't actually worth it.

There is one signal source scenario that's actually fun as all hell - namely, the one where half a dozen T7s spawn and then you get the choice of defending the convoy or helping the raid. If you choose to help the raid, you're told to hatchbreak them - the pirates just want to grab 10t of insulating membrane off them, which is fine, but they're also carrying other stuff. The stuff is usually the likes of domestic appliances admittedly, but all of it is pure profit. If the stuff in these convoy heist scenarios was more lucrative (or you got missions to direct you to this scenario) then it'd be amazing, but the extra stuff you can steal seems to be balanced towards the earnings that were available when the game just launched, where a ton of domestic appliances was a fantastic haul (rather like the first fast and the furious movie, where the AMAZING HEIST was for CRT TVs with built-in VCRs)

The big thing about a lot of legal missions is that you get a bonus in the form of bounty payments afterwards, plus usually you get help from authority ships. Piracy missions, and illegal missions in general, you don't get the opportunity for that bonus (if anything, the recent bounty buff has only increased the disparity!) and the cops are a hindrance rather than a help.

That, and honestly - in the time it takes to track down a target for this BIG SCORE of 1 ton of antiquities or whatever and get away under fire from half a dozen navy ships, I could have dropped on literally any metallic ring and safely mined several times that value in gold and platinum, hell even silver.
My hemorrhoids have better game design logic than this...
Simple question for frontier. After any mission, what have I gained and how much time did it take!?
 
Piracy is simply terrible at this point. Be it PvE or PvP. And it's been in this state for years. It makes me very sad because PvP piracy was quite good in the lave cluster. Long, long ago...

It's an unrewarding convoluted mess seemingly designed to drive players crazy. But in the end, it would not be that hard to make great improvements to it.

let's look at the big issues :

1) Finding targets is a pain. For PvE it's about finding that cargo ship with a mining laser in an anarchy system. That's it, the whole extent of the seeking a quarry gameplay loop.
2) Special convoys with antiquities and such have payouts that are nowhere close to the risk and difficulty.
3) Ship drifting madness and PDD shooting your limpets after the ship is clearly disabled. Bumping ship to a stop counts as gameplay I guess.
4) Collecting dozens of scattered containers is not exactly fun and a very tedious process given that the limpets work very slow indeed.

How to we remediate to this in a minimalist FDev style fix ?

0) Tie piracy targets to predictable locations and BGS states.
1) massively increase value of Sap8 cores and other "piracy" only cargo. And I mean, massively. ~10M a pop. Bump the number of containers a bit. Say 5-10.
2) make piracy missions target those and ask for 1-3 tons of their cargo. Eg.: Asks to recover 2 boxes of antiquities, but says nothing about the 8 boxes of other valuable cargo.
3) I know that asking for a new module is too much work, so let's settle for someting like : if a target has a PP at 0% and drives at 0%, a hatch braker limpet will stop it, and the ship will no reboot. It's been hacked and is done for.
4) I know this is crazy thought but here it is : canisters dropped by limpets should be in palettes of 10 units.

I believe that these large changes could be done within 5years.

As for PvP ? I have no idea how to fix it TBH. OTOH Sea of Thieves delivers a pretty convincing gameplay in that realms, but let's be honest, it's way beyond FDev capabilties.
 
Piracy is simply terrible at this point. Be it PvE or PvP. And it's been in this state for years. It makes me very sad because PvP piracy was quite good in the lave cluster. Long, long ago...

It's an unrewarding convoluted mess seemingly designed to drive players crazy. But in the end, it would not be that hard to make great improvements to it.

let's look at the big issues :

1) Finding targets is a pain. For PvE it's about finding that cargo ship with a mining laser in an anarchy system. That's it, the whole extent of the seeking a quarry gameplay loop.
2) Special convoys with antiquities and such have payouts that are nowhere close to the risk and difficulty.
3) Ship drifting madness and PDD shooting your limpets after the ship is clearly disabled. Bumping ship to a stop counts as gameplay I guess.
4) Collecting dozens of scattered containers is not exactly fun and a very tedious process given that the limpets work very slow indeed.

How to we remediate to this in a minimalist FDev style fix ?

0) Tie piracy targets to predictable locations and BGS states.
1) massively increase value of Sap8 cores and other "piracy" only cargo. And I mean, massively. ~10M a pop. Bump the number of containers a bit. Say 5-10.
2) make piracy missions target those and ask for 1-3 tons of their cargo. Eg.: Asks to recover 2 boxes of antiquities, but says nothing about the 8 boxes of other valuable cargo.
3) I know that asking for a new module is too much work, so let's settle for someting like : if a target has a PP at 0% and drives at 0%, a hatch braker limpet will stop it, and the ship will no reboot. It's been hacked and is done for.
4) I know this is crazy thought but here it is : canisters dropped by limpets should be in palettes of 10 units.

I believe that these large changes could be done within 5years.

As for PvP ? I have no idea how to fix it TBH. OTOH Sea of Thieves delivers a pretty convincing gameplay in that realms, but let's be honest, it's way beyond FDev capabilties.
Nailed it.

You're absolutely right about the RNG involved in finding targets and the low value of the goods in the few places where you can reliably say "That place there will have something to steal, I will bring my pirate ship there" (compare: "that ring has a hotspot, I will bring my mining ship here. That nav beacon is compromised, I will bring my bountyhunting ship there. That station has a favourable trade route, I will bring my cargo ship there" and so on) and that a good solution would be to make them more reliably findable, and boost the value of the things you can steal. Even reworking the things you find in convoy dispersal patterns would do the job, I haven't identified any other purpose for those signals.

And yes, the military convoys with antiquities would be worth it if antiquities were worth a damn, but as it is the amount of trouble you have to go through to get them is oof.

I already mentioned piracy missions versus liberate missions earlier in the thread, but yes, absolutely. Make the mission target a small quantity of mission cargo and fill the target vessel with a bunch of other, valuable stuff that doesn't count towards the mission but counts as your extra bonus you can skim off the top - just the way that the bounty vouchers are for liberate missions. And massacres, for that matter.

I'm neutral on making the ships slow by themselves and canisters dropping in pallets, it'd be nice if the canisters drifted along with the ship that ejected them so they don't get strewn across a massive straight line.
 
Considering how easy it is to make money via other methods, i agree.

Even just increasing the value of stuff generally hauled by traders would be a good simple start. Traders flying around with biowaste and water are everywhere, but try finding a trader hauling a high value material and as OP pointed out, you need not only knowledge but a lot of luck.
 
One other relatively easy thing FDev could do is a rare good balance pass (aka multiply values by a lot) along with NPC's traders running the "classic" routes with said goods.

Add the routes to the codex for good measure.

Here you go, predictable targets with high value/low volume cargo in predictable places.
 
One other relatively easy thing FDev could do is a rare good balance pass (aka multiply values by a lot) along with NPC's traders running the "classic" routes with said goods.

Add the routes to the codex for good measure.

Here you go, predictable targets with high value/low volume cargo in predictable places.
Yeah, kill two birds with one stone: make rares trading worthwhile and also the real rares piracy, might even add some extra benefit to pvp piracy
 
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Yeah, kill two birds with one stone: make rares trading worthwhile and also the real rares piracy, might even add some extra benefit to pvp piracy

PvP piracy needs ever help it can get. I would need much more than some goods value getting buffed to really work.
If FDev was serious about having PvP piracy (they are not), the requirements are (IMO) the following :

1) A open only "raise the flag" mechanic for both traders/miners/haulers/salvager and pirates, providing credit and/or materials and/or ARX invectives.
2) A limited number of sourcing-delivery spots known to all participants and clearly visible in the map.
3) An invective to fill your hold and deliver it all at once (increasing bonuses ?) and visit several hotspots before the final delivery.
4) Abilitiy to see "flaged" pirates/preys in the Galmap
5) Overall low count/high value cargo

I don't believe we'll ever have something like that.
 
PvP piracy needs ever help it can get. I would need much more than some goods value getting buffed to really work.
If FDev was serious about having PvP piracy (they are not), the requirements are (IMO) the following :

1) A open only "raise the flag" mechanic for both traders/miners/haulers/salvager and pirates, providing credit and/or materials and/or ARX invectives.
2) A limited number of sourcing-delivery spots known to all participants and clearly visible in the map.
3) An invective to fill your hold and deliver it all at once (increasing bonuses ?) and visit several hotspots before the final delivery.
4) Abilitiy to see "flaged" pirates/preys in the Galmap
5) Overall low count/high value cargo

I don't believe we'll ever have something like that.
I don’t think so either, as it’s kind of a game within a game and frontier appears to be against that approach for pvp, especially since there is already cqc.
Any proposal for organic pvp gets jumped on by the PVE-ers as being detrimental to their style of gameplay.
For piracy to be viable, frontier needs to create high reward/high risk areas of the game where traders fear to tread even against NPCs. I would make it so that the interdiction is very difficult to fight against a high level NPC, similar to a player, that way the choice to fly in open in high risk areas would not be seen as any more dangerous.
 
I don’t think so either, as it’s kind of a game within a game and frontier appears to be against that approach for pvp, especially since there is already cqc.
Any proposal for organic pvp gets jumped on by the PVE-ers as being detrimental to their style of gameplay.
For piracy to be viable, frontier needs to create high reward/high risk areas of the game where traders fear to tread even against NPCs. I would make it so that the interdiction is very difficult to fight against a high level NPC, similar to a player, that way the choice to fly in open in high risk areas would not be seen as any more dangerous.
imagine the rage if the npc difficulty in those areas is buffed but only if you're not instanced with another player, hahaha
 
imagine the rage if the npc difficulty in those areas is buffed but only if you're not instanced with another player, hahaha
Absolutely:)
But the interdictions really do need to be balanced, also to make C&P work: if a serial ganker gets to notoriety 10 he should be interdicted by the cops so often that he can’t even interdict his victims any more. Same thing around stations. Conversely, a trader with an engineered cutter should be able to make 50-100m per trip to high risk systems but should expect several difficult to fight interdictions against elite level pirate NPCs with grom bombs etc
 
Sorry gotta say it Op .
Piracy needs a grappling hook. !@@#@
I figure you’re joking, but I think we need something like that to stop ships or something to slow them down when they’re on the drift.

Improve the black market system.

At present the flat rate 25% off is particularly dull, and could be much more varied by a state/economy/government/superpower equation to give a percentage.

Imagine if it could range from -25% to +25%.
I never understood why the blackmarket in game is so low. Black; markets exist IRL because people can’t get the goods they wantprices should be higher not lower.

Maybe Fdev figured it would drive people away from trade/mining when they originally set that number.
 
High notoriety and bounties should make NPC traders poop themselves and drop cargo to distract us.
Not to mention combat rank. Or even something like calculated DPS or something.

Are you flying a ship that looks like it could tear a trader apart? Give them a chance to just ditch cargo. Especially if you've damaged them. Double especially if you've damaged them to the point that they can't jump. Change the behaviour when you manifest scan them - if you just scan them without opening fire, instead of having them pull a sharp turn and fly away, if they're intimidated by you have them cut their throttle and hold position (unless you attack, of course)

Give the manifest scanner the option to select the commodities in their hold and say "Give me X of that". Have NPCs respond appropriately. Even if they run, have them remember the demand. If sufficiently damaged have them go "fine, take it!" and ditch the cargo.
Deliver the cargo demands to other players in localised language with an audio alert.
 
Not to mention combat rank. Or even something like calculated DPS or something.

Are you flying a ship that looks like it could tear a trader apart? Give them a chance to just ditch cargo. Especially if you've damaged them. Double especially if you've damaged them to the point that they can't jump. Change the behaviour when you manifest scan them - if you just scan them without opening fire, instead of having them pull a sharp turn and fly away, if they're intimidated by you have them cut their throttle and hold position (unless you attack, of course)

Give the manifest scanner the option to select the commodities in their hold and say "Give me X of that". Have NPCs respond appropriately. Even if they run, have them remember the demand. If sufficiently damaged have them go "fine, take it!" and ditch the cargo.
Deliver the cargo demands to other players in localised language with an audio alert.

Indeed. I'm evil with skulls on my cap, I'm not here to talk about Aisling*

*that is powerplay though, so possibly
 
In anarchy yes, in high sec?

Depends- you could have a weighting based on sec, but it should be a calculation based on immediate need :D

For example, if I'm pointing several high DPS weapons, have notoriety of 10 the traders going to know he'll die regardless of where he is unless he drops his fruit and veg.
 
Not to mention combat rank. Or even something like calculated DPS or something.

Are you flying a ship that looks like it could tear a trader apart? Give them a chance to just ditch cargo. Especially if you've damaged them. Double especially if you've damaged them to the point that they can't jump. Change the behaviour when you manifest scan them - if you just scan them without opening fire, instead of having them pull a sharp turn and fly away, if they're intimidated by you have them cut their throttle and hold position (unless you attack, of course)

Give the manifest scanner the option to select the commodities in their hold and say "Give me X of that". Have NPCs respond appropriately. Even if they run, have them remember the demand. If sufficiently damaged have them go "fine, take it!" and ditch the cargo.
Deliver the cargo demands to other players in localised language with an audio alert.
Now that we can dialog with NPCs in odyssey, maybe the same will apply ship to ship.
 
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