Been a few years now, and Elite still feels like an empty shell.

[Sylveria]

It is if you're a software company. We both are simply passengers in this process, as are the rest of the forum. While I agree with your "quote", practicably it seems high-level leadership is somewhat absent in this case.

Quite right. I tend to bribe everyone with biscuits and a nice vintage.

Not in your house (or mine).

Red or white?

As to the leadership- it's not a mantle I've ever personally wanted to wear. Perhaps it's because my experience of "leaders" has tainted my view of how others would perceive me, if that makes sense? I don't ever want someone to view me as I would, say people I've worked for in the past. I think of being a team player as playing WITH others and not FOR others, for example. I don't think of people I "manage" as "subordinates", but rather people who all have the same goal in mind- and we all have a part to play in order to get there.

I'll skip the biscuits, but I'll have the Red, thank you Perhaps a nice Merlot?

 

[SentineI]

Lots of words, might as well have written 'i want to play another game'

Yeah. And it's probably called Star Citizen, at least once it's finished. (Runs away very quickly, after having lobbed an incendiary device into a crowded room .)

P.S. Elite Dangerous does very well at it's original goal of being a modern multi-player version of Frontier: Elite 2 (and Elite 1). Whether Elite was best suited to be a multi-player game is another matter entirely... And gaming has moved on a bit in the 20+ years since the original games.

 

[Genus]

As to the leadership- it's not a mantle I've ever personally wanted to wear. Perhaps it's because my experience of "leaders" has tainted my view of how others would perceive me, if that makes sense? I don't ever want someone to view me as I would, say people I've worked for in the past. I think of being a team player as playing WITH others and not FOR others, for example. I don't think of people I "manage" as "subordinates", but rather people who all have the same goal in mind- and we all have a part to play in order to get there.

I'll skip the biscuits, but I'll have the Red, thank you Perhaps a nice Merlot?

*opens a bottle of Clos de Marquis*

I can empathise. However much bosses either want or are required to be friends with their subordinates outside of work (we do after all live in an age of connected individuals), and the degree of which that friendship effects work behaviour...it is simply the case that sometimes (maybe even at the worst of times) they are also required to make decisions which do not necessarily reflect the best interest of those they would call friend, but do represent corporate responsibility.

I can imagine you passed on the biscuits because you've already eaten a tin full.

*pours and hands you the glass*

Cheese?

 

[Sylveria]

I think there is just a misunderstanding here. The point I'm trying to make is that people imply that it's wrong or it's a waste of time to post critical feedback. It's better for everyone if you just don't waste your time and just go away instead. It's usually something like "Why are you complaining? Just go play a game you do like if you hate Elite so much." That's flawed logic. If the same logic was applied to positive feedback threads it would be "Why waste time kissing up to the devs? Just go play the game if you love it so much." But that's obviously nonsense, wouldn't you agree? Both positive and negative feedback is useful to Frontier. I think we agree on this.

Indeed. Chalked up to misunderstanding/misinterpretation. (whichever)

Ok, so by the same logic I'm not "telling you what to do with your time", only suggesting that it would be more wisely spent doing something other than being repetitive with telling people how they could spend their time more wisely.

Difference is one isa bit more constructive and the other really isn't. I suppose an argument could be made in either direction, If people choose to remain pouty and frowny after I try and cheer them up- so be it. It's their choice to remain unhappy, sure.

It's not so much what you're saying, it's WHERE you're saying it and HOW you're saying it. You don't go into a church of a different religion and interrupt the service by telling everyone what you believe. That would be almost like saying "Look what you're doing here is great and all, but this is how it SHOULD be done." You know what I mean? There are plenty of other threads you can post in. You can make one of your own even. But coming into a thread you don't agree with and trying to counter the OP's opinion point-for-point kind of comes across as "You're wrong, and let me explain why you're wrong". Ya know? And when people see the same names in almost every critical feedback thread like this, it starts to seem like you are trying to squash anything being said that might put the game in a bad light. Does that make any sense?

Forums aren't designed to be isolated bubbles of containment, though. I do get what you're saying- but in reality and practice it's much more complicated than "This is my negative feedback thread and positive feedback must stay out." (Unless of course, you can get the Mod team to go along with this) That's all I'm trying to point out here. There's also a counterpoint to be made between people who disagree who may find some sort of agreement later as well. Just because your current perception of something may be what it is, it doesn't make it definitive and beyond adjustment. Sometimes people may change their minds when someone presents information in an alternative or different manner, which is what discussion is all about. Telling someone their opinion is invalid just because they disagree with you is just as equally offensive, is it not? I think we can both agree on this, too.

 

[Weps]

I agree with most of the points in the OP. And those that I agree with, put together, represent the reason I don't play the game anymore.

For example, one of the points in the OP is about persistence and the different game modes. And these are a direct consequence of the server model FDEV chose, before release (the oldest controversy in E: D's history). When I first started getting into Elite and read about this, I was a bit bummed, it was obviously a financial decision, but I thought to myself: "if this is the concession that needs to be made in order for this company to be able to deliver a great game, so be it!". But then many more concessions followed. Most of them so obviously related to skimpy development. And the more recent ones in my opinion actually doing more harm than good. And at first look, their latest rework attempt doesn't seem clear-cut at all, on the contrary.

So now I find myself asking: is E: D still a great game despite its obviously not so great components? When will the whole finally stop being greater than the sum of its parts? This is obviously a question to which every player responds differently.

I can only answer for myself: the neglect on core game mechanics, coupled with the introduction of new controversial mechanics, has pushed the game past that border where I can still have fun, while imagining the universe Braben used to paint in his YouTube videos.

 

[Quester91]

I was reading and nodding along until the part where you said the game needs more time sinks.

Nope, you completely lost me there.

 

[Roybe]

Same here.

And the OP has extremely valid points.

The game is devoid of both content and meaningful interaction to a pathetic degree. Even combat, which is the one thing FDEV did right beyond - and lets face it, mostly because of - the basic flight model (which they NAILED; credit where its due) has become a slog. Ships have too many effective hit points, spam healing potions and the AI can cheat. Blatantly.

More depressing still, combat is pointless. RES and CZ remain pointless horde mode instances. No consequences. No purpose.

And everything else is literally a spreadsheet sim. Not even TRYING to hide that its all just numbers going up and down. I mean, really...its just shallow progress bars, gated behind blatant time sink grind that isnt trying to hide a design so lazy, its like it came from some free mobile game.

And this is very likely all its ever going to be. Because in three years, Frontier havent even TRIED to change it. Its been one time sink or useless "feature" after another, with zero effort put into meaningful interaction or depth.

They can't change the above, because if you pull the curtain back, that is all it is. You can't change the game from this because that is all they have to work with. It is not a game for everyone, but understanding your main point, and demanding they change the game to something it can't be...doesn't make any sense.

I agree with most of the points in the OP. And those that I agree with, put together, represent the reason I don't play the game anymore.

For example, one of the points in the OP is about persistence and the different game modes. And these are a direct consequence of the server model FDEV chose, before release (the oldest controversy in E: D's history). When I first started getting into Elite and read about this, I was a bit bummed, it was obviously a financial decision, but I thought to myself: "if this is the concession that needs to be made in order for this company to be able to deliver a great game, so be it!". But then many more concessions followed. Most of them so obviously related to skimpy development. And the more recent ones in my opinion actually doing more harm than good. And at first look, their latest rework attempt doesn't seem clear-cut at all, on the contrary.

So now I find myself asking: is E: D still a great game despite its obviously not so great components? When will the whole finally stop being greater than the sum of its parts? This is obviously a question to which every player responds differently.

I can only answer for myself: the neglect on core game mechanics, coupled with the introduction of new controversial mechanics, has pushed the game past that border where I can still have fun, while imagining the universe Braben used to paint in his YouTube videos.

Well you still have time for forum PVP...there's something!

 

[Sylveria]

*opens a bottle of Clos de Marquis*

I can empathise. However much bosses either want or are required to be friends with their subordinates outside of work (we do after all live in an age of connected individuals), and the degree of which that friendship effects work behaviour...it is simply the case that sometimes (maybe even at the worst of times) they are also required to make decisions which do not necessarily reflect the best interest of those they would call friend, but do represent corporate responsibility.

I can imagine you passed on the biscuits because you've already eaten a tin full.

*pours and hands you the glass*

Cheese?

Difficult decisions are always difficult to make. That's the nature of why they're difficult. I've had to make tough calls myself and later be criticized by others who feel they could have done better, to which I've always said "Here's the keys." At the end of the day it's always easier to critique someone else's choices... when you're not the one who has to stand and be responsible for them. (It's also why I suggest people tone down a bit when they criticize here, too) As far as the perception goes- I've never viewed a boss as a "friend" regardless of their attempts... I learned a valuable lesson early on that there's a clear definitive line and keep work and business completely separated and compartmentalized. Even in today's connected world I hold absolutely no illusions in perception of reality there.

I do think it's much easier for people to demonize when they're viewed as less "human", and aspire to at least remind people that we're all human. And not one of us is infallible.

As to the cheese ... I've had plenty of that, too. Both literally and figuratively.

 

[Noctover]

Lots of words, might as well have written 'i want to play another game'

Lots of expression of a trivial understanding of the game.
Lots of complaints about the original design decisions, which were all present during the undoubtedly long time you have played the game

Lots of fanboy defensive dismissal.

 

[Genus]

And not one of us is infallible.

I agree. While I will maintain until my end, that everyone on this ball of rock is good at something...that sentiment is unfortunately by its very nature, somewhat contextual.

As to the cheese ... I've had plenty of that, too. Both literally and figuratively.

This is why humans have eyebrows.

Mine tend to wiggle every time this game goes into Beta.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Sometimes I like viewing the list of threads started by an OP for context.

For example, this OP has been creating threads since 2014, and the theme of this thread title and first post are pretty much the in line with nearly every other thread since day one.

 

[Noctover]

BTW OP i agree with you. Its more of a virtual video is ED, a proof on concept.... Its like "look at this world we have created! Hold the line while we do something with it" and we are still waiting....It has the potential to be unbelievably good, which is why i still browse the forums and follow the game.

The Open/Solo/Private argument is a valid one, and its simply a fact that concessions have been made to accommodate them all meaning non of these modes will ever hit their true potential... Jack of all trades master on non comes to mind.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

With an OP that long, you're bound to agree on ideas and disagree on others.
The OP just gave his vision, that's his forum right, and I did not find it that whiny...

However, the "I've put thousands of hours into the game and it's not good enough" is a real post-killer. You can't be taken seriously after that. I think I know why some people do that, that gives sort of a "badge of knowledge" of the things you complain about. But at worst, it gives the feeling of a masochistic addict contrived to play even though he hates that.
The more hours I put into the game since 1.3, the more I realize on the contrary that I don't know what they've got, but there is something that works in this canvas of elements, sometimes disconnected, sometimes tightly woven. When I come back, there's just an urge to play everyday. Even when I leave for the last time, I won't be able to say that Elite was not worth my time and money.

 

[Roybe]

BTW OP i agree with you. Its more of a virtual video is ED, a proof on concept.... Its like "look at this world we have created! Hold the line while we do something with it" and we are still waiting....It has the potential to be unbelievably good, which is why i still browse the forums and follow the game.

The Open/Solo/Private argument is a valid one, and its simply a fact that concessions have been made to accommodate them all meaning non of these modes will ever hit their true potential... Jack of all trades master on non comes to mind.

Although people have a love/hate relationship with the matchmaking system (which is all the modes are), failure to realize that the whole of the game circles around this feature, is forcing people to play a game they hate...out of hope for future repairs. It's about time people abandon any hope for changes to this system. If you hate it now...you will hate it forever...because it is not going away.

 

[Maro-Val]

Some valid point in the OP. But ED plays alone at the moment, so no big changes in the horizon.
Oh.. and expect the white knights to slowly rip you and this thread apart.

 

[Genus]

However, the "I've put thousands of hours into the game and it's not good enough" is a real post-killer. You can't be taken seriously after that.

I dunno so much.

I think the devotion to what could arguably be regarded as the "Elite Genre" is often dismissed and under rated on these boards. If a player puts a thousand hours in and then comments as has the OP, it should add weight to the argument, not less.

I can empathise. My love for the "Institution that is Elite" and the time investment I've made over the last 30 years is still waiting to be satiated in the current incarnation. A thousand hours is nothing in that context, and to be so inclined to undermine that experience is somewhat counterproductive to the debate.

Personally, I've probably put as many hours into ED as I once did into Elite. Do I still look fondly back on the experience I had in it's entirety 30 years ago...oh yes. Will I look back fondly on my "ED days" in 30 years from now?

Will I ****

 

[Noctover]

Although people have a love/hate relationship with the matchmaking system (which is all the modes are), failure to realize that the whole of the game circles around this feature, is forcing people to play a game they hate...out of hope for future repairs. It's about time people abandon any hope for changes to this system. If you hate it now...you will hate it forever...because it is not going away.

No i agree with you mate, my argument is that it should never have been implemented in the first place, i know full well it wont change now and even if they offered i'd say its too late because you cannot take that out once in.

What im holding out hope for is depth.

 

[Sylveria]

I dunno so much.

I think the devotion to what could arguably be regarded as the "Elite Genre" is often dismissed and under rated on these boards. If a player puts a thousand hours in and then comments as has the OP, it should add weight to the argument, not less.

I can empathise. My love for the "Institution that is Elite" and the time investment I've made over the last 30 years is still waiting to be satiated in the current incarnation. A thousand hours is nothing in that context, and to be so inclined to undermine that experience is somewhat counterproductive to the debate.

A lot of people pay much more than what the game cost(s) for considerably less entertainment value in comparison, too.

$5 for a cup of coffee... etc. I could go on and on, but I think it really depends on how one measures value.

 

[Genus]

A lot of people pay much more than what the game cost(s) for considerably less entertainment value in comparison, too.

$5 for a cup of coffee... etc. I could go on and on, but I think it really depends on how one measures value.

Yeah, well. The coffee industry now builds organisational structures around the "Commoditisation of Experience". Hence the price of $5. One of the central metrics in that approach is "Return on Engagement" which should be a positive number all told.

Interestingly the gaming industry does the same....unless they don't and they still use "Return on Investment" instead.

In which case how I measure value is as redundant as the gang I'm in.

*shakes the bottle and gestures towards your empty glass*

 

[Sylveria]

Yeah, well. The coffee industry now builds organisational structures around the "Commoditisation of Experience". Hence the price of $5. One of the central metrics in that approach is "Return on Engagement" which should be a positive number all told.

Interestingly the gaming industry does the same....

As I said, I could go on and on... but the point remains the same. One does have to wonder how someone else measures "value" when they've sunk 2,000 hours into something that cost them less than perhaps even their monthly Cable TV bill by way of comparison. The list is endless, to be sure.