Black Market affecting the controlling faction INF

[Cmdr G]

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.
1. Im told selling on the BM has as negative effect on the controlling factions INF. Is this correct?

2. Does the profit when selling to the BM have a greater effect on said INF if the profit is higher (or lower)? Ex: 5m profit for BM transaction results in -1 INF; 10m profit results in -2 INF
Obviously the above example numbers will vary depending on many factors.

Additionally, If I run +10 INF missions for the faction I desire will that have the same effect as if two pilots run +5?

 

[goemon]

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.
1. Im told selling on the BM has as negative effect on the controlling factions INF. Is this correct?

2. Does the profit when selling to the BM have a greater effect on said INF if the profit is higher (or lower)? Ex: 5m profit for BM transaction results in -1 INF; 10m profit results in -2 INF
Obviously the above example numbers will vary depending on many factors.

1. yes, if the controlling faction isn't an anarchy goverment type.
2. unknown/untested, especially after update 10: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/bgs-changes-in-update-10-some-bonuses-for-criminals.597957/

it might be the same is supposed to happen with BM trade (demand having an effect, sell price having an effect), but https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/trading-for-influence-ii-fc-update.555082/post-9779734 @FlyingBrick anyway had weird returns of testing, as i know others had. also things migth behave differently in horizons and odyssey.

i recommend you start testing yourself - if you need pointers how to do so, just ask

 

[Jmanis]

1. Im told selling on the BM has as negative effect on the controlling factions INF. Is this correct?

1. yes, if the controlling faction isn't an anarchy goverment type.

Just to emphasise something on Point 1... it affects the faction controlling the station the black market is in. Not the system controlling faction (unless they happen to be the same).

 

[Nepeta Uchiha]

1. yes, if the controlling faction isn't an anarchy goverment type.

Also Feudal. My PMF is Feudal and when we take control black markets go because nothing is illegal aside from murder.

 

[Cmdr G]

Thanks for the input and clarifications. Been kinda busy so sorry for the tardy reply.

 

[Dragsham]

and a rebalance is long overdue. BM prices suck

 

[Nepeta Uchiha]

and a rebalance is long overdue. BM prices suck

That's actually coming in several hours.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Yup! Now you can make money in smuggling!

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

"Smuggling" aka one person in the squad jettisons cargo while another picks it up. Bingo, the items are now marked as stolen and can be sold at a black market to damage/raise inf.

 

[goemon]

"Smuggling" aka one person in the squad jettisons cargo while another picks it up. Bingo, the items are now marked as stolen and can be sold at a black market to damage/raise inf.

not sure why you'd do that, as a) legally purchased goods illegal in system work the same and b) in the rare case of not enough illegals for that type of goverment and economy picking up trade missions, abandoning those and selling the cargo now marked as stolen is more convenient. i have a t9 called BiG Sinner to soak up the fines.

 

[goemon]

generally people suspect smuggling often, but analysing the available ingame data(BM demand for exampel) often shows it is not the case. positive influence actions for all other factions is so much stronger.

 

[goemon]

Also Feudal. My PMF is Feudal and when we take control black markets go because nothing is illegal aside from murder.

this is btw not correct.
illegal in feudal goverment: Narcotics, Combat Stabilisers, Slaves, Battle Weapons

the only goverment type having no illegals is anarchy.

my guess would be your goverment change raises the hidden but dev-confirned levels like security level, tech level etc above the threshold for a BM. bit like dictatorship closing black markets very often, and sometimes raising the systems security level over a threshold to gow from low to medium.

there are quite some feudal controlled stations with BM, as well as fewer, but still some dictatorships with BM.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

this is btw not correct.
illegal in feudal goverment: Narcotics, Combat Stabilisers, Slaves, Battle Weapons

the only goverment type having no illegals is anarchy.

my guess would be your goverment change raises the hidden but dev-confirned levels like security level, tech level etc above the threshold for a BM. bit like dictatorship closing black markets very often, and sometimes raising the systems security level over a threshold to gow from low to medium.

there are quite some feudal controlled stations with BM, as well as fewer, but still some dictatorships with BM.

Black Markets are primarily ethos-controlled (with what goods they purchase if open being government-controlled).

Social/Criminal ethos open them
Authoritarian/Corporate ethos close them (Feudal and Dictatorship both normally Authoritarian)

Civil Unrest now opens them temporarily regardless of ethos (except for bugs where it doesn't, or only does in Horizons, etc)

 

[goemon]

Black Markets are primarily ethos-controlled (with what goods they purchase if open being government-controlled).

Social/Criminal ethos open them
Authoritarian/Corporate ethos close them (Feudal and Dictatorship both normally Authoritarian)

Civil Unrest now opens them temporarily regardless of ethos (except for bugs where it doesn't, or only does in Horizons, etc)

besides state effects and powerplay effects how would you explain this exampel:

state none
powerplay none
feudal
proc gen npc faction

Goodbye EDDB

Goodbye EDDB

eddb.io

 

[Ian Doncaster]

besides state effects and powerplay effects how would you explain this exampel:

state none
powerplay none
feudal
proc gen npc faction

Goodbye EDDB

Goodbye EDDB

eddb.io

With the last update being 38 days ago, the simplest explanation would be that it was in Civil Unrest back then (or Delaine has moved out since).

Assuming it still has a BM now, it looks like service opening is only checked when something changes - controller, state, etc. - so it might have one left over from a previous ruleset/bugset that's just never been rechecked.

Could also be an atypical ethos faction, even though it's procedural.

 

[goemon]

With the last update being 38 days ago, the simplest explanation would be that it was in Civil Unrest back then (or Delaine has moved out since).

Assuming it still has a BM now, it looks like service opening is only checked when something changes - controller, state, etc. - so it might have one left over from a previous ruleset/bugset that's just never been rechecked.

Could also be an atypical ethos faction, even though it's procedural.

i'll get new data and more exampels over the weekend.
eddb updates and stores the state of a station with its visit, so it isn't/wasn't state related. you can find many stations in "war" on eddb where the war has ended, system was visited, but not station.

 

[goemon]

Black Markets are primarily ethos-controlled (with what goods they purchase if open being government-controlled).

Social/Criminal ethos open them
Authoritarian/Corporate ethos close them (Feudal and Dictatorship both normally Authoritarian)

Civil Unrest now opens them temporarily regardless of ethos (except for bugs where it doesn't, or only does in Horizons, etc)

besides state effects and powerplay effects how would you explain this exampel:

state none
powerplay none
feudal
proc gen npc faction

Goodbye EDDB

Goodbye EDDB

eddb.io

With the last update being 38 days ago, the simplest explanation would be that it was in Civil Unrest back then (or Delaine has moved out since).

Assuming it still has a BM now, it looks like service opening is only checked when something changes - controller, state, etc. - so it might have one left over from a previous ruleset/bugset that's just never been rechecked.

Could also be an atypical ethos faction, even though it's procedural.

well, this data gathering was a quick one.

here is a very good exampel, why ethos (which explains why a faction goes with another faction into WAR or ELECTION) can't explain black markets spawn/despawn:

Dictatorship with BM, state none: https://eddb.io/station/23563 - note, that the other stations controlled by the same faction in system currently have no BM.

Change history of the station noting BM changes in the last 15 days without ownership change: https://ross.eddb.io/history?station_id=23563

elitebgs history of the system in the same time: https://elitebgs.app/systems/59eb2a00d22c775be0b81f7e

now ... this of course doesn't mean anyone has to follow my reasoning, but ...
- we have devquotes on other station services availability (Material Trader, Fleetcarrier administration) depending on hidden variables.
exampel

A system with Carrier Authority follows these guidelines:

...
Has a tech level above 100
Has a development level above 75
Has a standard of living above 60
Has a wealth above 70

source: https://customersupport.frontier.co.uk/hc/en-us/articles/4404350872210-How-do-Fleet-Carriers-work-

• which makes me believe, that black market depends on some or other of those variables.
• and goverment type (feudal, dictatorship...) affects some.
• this is imho also the reason why there are significantly fewer low security systems by dictatorship relative to total numbers of controlled systems than e.g. cooperatives.
• and might explain spawn/despawn of CNB

anyway, i guess the most important take away is, that even dictatorship DOES NOT block black market existence (by "ethos"), and so does not feudal.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

anyway, i guess the most important take away is, that even dictatorship DOES NOT block black market existence (by "ethos"), and so does not feudal.

Interesting.

Ethos still has a definite strong effect - authoritarian/corporate factions in Colonia do reliably disable BMs, social/criminal ones do reliably enable them, even when they have an atypical ethos for their government type (social corporates, criminal feudals, etc.) - and in the bubble with its greater variance in hidden variables, socials without BMs are incredibly rare and dictatorships with them are uncommon - but agreed that it looks clear enough from that example that it has that effect by influencing some of the hidden variables.

 

[Danieros]

well, this data gathering was a quick one.

here is a very good exampel, why ethos (which explains why a faction goes with another faction into WAR or ELECTION) can't explain black markets spawn/despawn:

Dictatorship with BM, state none: https://eddb.io/station/23563 - note, that the other stations controlled by the same faction in system currently have no BM.

Change history of the station noting BM changes in the last 15 days without ownership change: https://ross.eddb.io/history?station_id=23563

elitebgs history of the system in the same time: https://elitebgs.app/systems/59eb2a00d22c775be0b81f7e

now ... this of course doesn't mean anyone has to follow my reasoning, but ...
- we have devquotes on other station services availability (Material Trader, Fleetcarrier administration) depending on hidden variables.
exampel

source: https://customersupport.frontier.co.uk/hc/en-us/articles/4404350872210-How-do-Fleet-Carriers-work-

• which makes me believe, that black market depends on some or other of those variables.
• and goverment type (feudal, dictatorship...) affects some.
• this is imho also the reason why there are significantly fewer low security systems by dictatorship relative to total numbers of controlled systems than e.g. cooperatives.
• and might explain spawn/despawn of CNB

anyway, i guess the most important take away is, that even dictatorship DOES NOT block black market existence (by "ethos"), and so does not feudal.

The BM availability you see on EDDB/Inara could also depend on whether the CMDR journal was uploaded from odyssey or horizons. So in Odyssey if this BMs is blocked it also sends the event with them being unavailable.

Previously you could see these station-specific BMs only in the UI - but they never really had a point. The gov types that weren't blocking BMs (social/criminal) were simply the ones that will always force them to appear while they're in control anyway.

 

[goemon]

The BM availability you see on EDDB/Inara could also depend on whether the CMDR journal was uploaded from odyssey or horizons. So in Odyssey if this BMs is blocked it also sends the event with them being unavailable.

Previously you could see these station-specific BMs only in the UI - but they never really had a point. The gov types that weren't blocking BMs (social/criminal) were simply the ones that will always force them to appear while they're in control anyway.

i went there in person to check ;-)
so i'd say the data is clear. goverment types make bms more or less likely, but neither do they disable or enable them (not sure about anarchy here)