Break through SCBs instantly with modified railguns (Newletter 121)

[GluttonyFang]

To me, it still sounds like a game of chess between two or more players. When to use the SCB's is currently only important when you are under DPS pressure. When to use them under this new change really forces a player to think more about pushing that button.

I don't know how often you PvP, but SCB might be neglected completely for some hull reinforcement. Or the speedier ship has the upper hand to escape effective range, which again, puts large ships and Python at an awkward position.

Here's another thought...if SCB's do become 'useless' in the eyes of those that PvP, won't PvP players have problems reacting to someone that is using them in spite of the meta?

The change with the way it is will encourage the use of bi-weave over any other shield with the minor use of SCB. Also, it's narrowing the available ships for PvP, since large ships don't have a chance.

We also do not have an idea on how much work it will take to get said rail gun. Finally, those attributes might not provide a defense against a rail gun used as such...but they surely can limit the use of that gun to a limited number of shots...or complete uselessness except for the snipe. (Very little damage output, very slow fire rate, huge capacitor draw, etc.) It might have a great offensive use, at such a huge cost that people have to really choose to do use this.

I'm taking a wait and see approach until the beta releases....again, this is a good time for everyone to come up with their ideas that would make this a bad implementation, and I'm certain the devs appreciate that discussion.

I don't mind waiting, just that with the available information, the modification is totally OP without a doubt, and I'll continue to defend that position no matter what anyone says.

So large ships flying alone should be fortresses that two players have no chance to beat?

A large ship should be in trouble when combating two smaller ships, but to not despair and escape without a second thought.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

While Odoacre might be too aggressive in conveying his point, he isn't speaking nonsense.

A rail gun isn't hard to land on anything larger than a Viper, and this isn't some "ace pilot" speaking, but serious assessment of the low-skill ceiling necessary to land a rail on a SCBing ship.

Especially on large ships, that rely on SCBs and don't have the ability to maneuver.

If the rail gun mod only work when landing a shot to the shield generator module, it might be more reasonable, but then large ships are still disadvantaged due to their maneuverability.

Can't say large ships are dead before we see how good regen beams are

 

[MarcusKross]

If there will be any modification that can counter the rail, it would be great, but to point out what is broken with the present information is exactly what I'll do.

The previous beta the devs made SCBs useless in the first stage, which was consistent with what they announced that they will do before the beta landed (SCB will require HS and make large ships useless because they need multiple high class SCBs at once).

A knee jerk reaction would be a complete rejection of this rail gun mod, which I did not propose, but instead alternatives.

Edit:

To clarify, SCB isn't dead because of this mod, since smaller and more maneuverable/speedy ships can still take advantage of SCB, whereas large ships are dead in the water.

You were too fast to call me on knee jerking on emissive munitions while i only said 'Discuss'

Let me give it to you straight. I believe devs know what they are doing, also they are trying to create this 'there is a counter for everything' for combat with a bit of RNG flavor on top with the goal of achieving 'unique ships each with their own quirks for everybody' in mind which in my opinion, is great.

Now with that being said, if devs don't give players the tools to counter this specific mod effect you are absolutely right. There will be no other reason to bring a big ship to PvP other than the reason you missed seeing a fat cost rebuy screen, but i highly doubt devs exclude this specific mod from having some form of a counter and even if they do it won't ruin the game for me.

Quoting Sandro 'Not all but most experimental effects have various counter balances built in'. If the mod proves too powerful in the beta rather than removing it completely or nerfing it to oblivion ( like what happened with the missiles and explosives last year ) counter balancing can be done by increasing the shot charge time, lowering rate of fire or maybe increasing heat build up etc.

We all need to cool our jets till beta hits.

 

[Kvas]

So large ships flying alone should be fortresses that two players have no chance to beat? And we are back to this old, dead, horse.

You are talking 1 player being able to kill a big ship now. And yes, they should withstand this kind of abuse, because it cost 10-20 mln when you see a rebuy screen, not 500k.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Can't say large ships are dead before we see how good regen beams are

Regardless of how great the healing beams will be, it requires additional ships. It means that large ships alone can no longer stand up to any ship that can make it use even one SCB.

Might as well fly around in a FDL with 1.2k MJ of shield with a modded rail equipped instead of flying any large ships at that point.

 

[Roybe]

I don't know how often you PvP, but SCB might be neglected completely for some hull reinforcement. Or the speedier ship has the upper hand to escape effective range, which again, puts large ships and Python at an awkward position.

This is where I thought the meta was going to head with the last release. More hull tanking or speed, much less reliance upon shields. This discussion really does come down to protect the large ships, then. Just like the last update. For large ships, it makes perfect sense that their best defense is to jump out. They can't be mass locked by the smaller ships. They should be able to face tank with normal shields and do considerable damage to the field of play...and then when they have problems fade into the black...and come back when repaired. They could carry a few SCB's to repair shields after they jump.

And this makes perfect sense...look at the Capital ships on the battlefield...the retire from the field..the SuperPowers do not risk the loss of capital.

 

[GluttonyFang]

You were too fast to call me on knee jerking on emissive munitions while i only said 'Discuss'

Due to the title of your thread, "HRP Dead?"

Let me give it to you straight. I believe devs know what they are doing, also they are trying to create this 'there is a counter for everything' for combat with a bit of RNG flavor on top with the goal of achieving 'unique ships each with their own quirks for everybody' in mind which in my opinion, is great.

I want to believe the devs know what they're doing, and I truly think that they try, but through the numerous interaction I've had with this game and watched how it developed, I'll say 50/50 at best.

The best example:

"Limiting cargo canisters that can exist in space everywhere to 20 tons is working as intended." - Michael

I'm sorry, but after that incident I just face-pawed very hard.

Quoting Sandro 'Not all but most experimental effects have various counter balances built in'. If the mod proves too powerful in the beta rather than removing it completely or nerfing it to oblivion ( like what happened with the missiles and explosives last year ) counter balancing can be done by increasing the shot charge time, lowering rate of fire or maybe increasing heat build up etc.

We all need to cool our jets till beta hits.

I do want to believe the devs will keep an eye on the matter, and I fought very hard to make that the case the last beta where they almost killed off SCBs and introduced the terrible HRP and Rail meta.

This rail mod can't be fixed by changing the six attributes I mentioned, it's mechanic must change in some way or form or have a counter modification available.

 

[Roybe]

I do want to believe the devs will keep an eye on the matter, and I fought very hard to make that the case the last beta where they almost killed off SCBs and introduced the terrible HRP and Rail meta.

This rail mod can't be fixed by changing the six attributes I mentioned, it's mechanic must change in some way or form or have a counter modification available.

On this I disagree. If the weapon is painful to use, it creates a problem for the owner. In other words, the best offense is so expensive in running costs that players do not like to use it/use it sparingly.

 

[GluttonyFang]

This is where I thought the meta was going to head with the last release. More hull tanking or speed, much less reliance upon shields. This discussion really does come down to protect the large ships, then. Just like the last update. For large ships, it makes perfect sense that their best defense is to jump out. They can't be mass locked by the smaller ships. They should be able to face tank with normal shields and do considerable damage to the field of play...and then when they have problems fade into the black...and come back when repaired. They could carry a few SCB's to repair shields after they jump.

And this makes perfect sense...look at the Capital ships on the battlefield...the retire from the field..the SuperPowers do not risk the loss of capital.

Then no one will bring large ships since it's more of a nuisance than an utility. In wing combat they get focused down to nothing within seconds (at least they could run away with SCBs while getting focused, now it's just plain dead), in solo combat with this change there's no place for it other than running away. It's no longer TTK we need to worry about it's TTJ (time to jump).

I don't think that's what large ships are suppose to do, and if they are suppose to do that, I really doubt if there is any place in combat for large ships whatsoever.

At least capital ships have relays that take considerable time to take out, large ships got nothing but SCBs and shields.

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On this I disagree. If the weapon is painful to use, it creates a problem for the owner. In other words, the best offense is so expensive in running costs that players do not like to use it/use it sparingly.

Tell me exactly what attributes do you think can balance something like the rail modification?

 

[Kvas]

Yeah, because I want to be chased by noobs after I spent 800 hours on equipping my ship...

I had enough of this thread and all this Engineers crap... Looks like it's going be a repeat of PowerPlay. So disappointed.

 

[Roybe]

Then no one will bring large ships since it's more of a nuisance than an utility. In wing combat they get focused down to nothing within seconds (at least they could run away with SCBs while getting focused, now it's just plain dead), in solo combat with this change there's no place for it other than running away. It's no longer TTK we need to worry about it's TTJ (time to jump).

I don't think that's what large ships are suppose to do, and if they are suppose to do that, I really doubt if there is any place in combat for large ships whatsoever.

At least capital ships have relays that take considerable time to take out, large ships got nothing but SCBs and shields.

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Tell me exactly what attributes do you think can balance something like the rail modification?

DPS: The weapons do NO DPS after the new modification, they just knock down the shields.
Pure Damage: Again, 0 damage.
Capacitor Draw: Use depletes capacitors, weapons can only be fired with full capacitors.
Rate of Fire: Recycling time is extended....can only be fired once every x seconds.
Jitter: Not sure how you are using this term?
Heat Generation: One shot immediately raises temps to +100%...further use risks more heat damage

Any of these would be possible because of the experimental nature of the weapon...all of them would be so costly as to not warrant players wanting 3 of them on a ship.




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Then no one will bring large ships since it's more of a nuisance than an utility. In wing combat they get focused down to nothing within seconds (at least they could run away with SCBs while getting focused, now it's just plain dead), in solo combat with this change there's no place for it other than running away. It's no longer TTK we need to worry about it's TTJ (time to jump).

I don't think that's what large ships are suppose to do, and if they are suppose to do that, I really doubt if there is any place in combat for large ships whatsoever.

At least capital ships have relays that take considerable time to take out, large ships got nothing but SCBs and shields.

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Tell me exactly what attributes do you think can balance something like the rail modification?

Yep...I agree. And you made a good case of the large ship plight last time. I would focus the discussion on this again. If the devs want large ships to be game changers on a PVP field of battle...then they need to make sure they can be. Of course, this does bring into play what the devs expect of PVP in this game to start with...so this does put them on the horns of that dilemma as well.

 

[Roybe]

Yeah, because I want to be chased by noobs after I spent 800 hours on equipping my ship...

I had enough of this thread and all this Engineers crap... Looks like it's going be a repeat of PowerPlay. So disappointed.

How do you the Capital ship captains feel every time they are run off! LOL!

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It took to about page 14 before this thread jumped the shark.

I'm not impressed people.

Oh I hope I played Fonzie in this discussion!

 

[MarcusKross]

I want to believe the devs know what they're doing, and I truly think that they try, but through the numerous interaction I've had with this game and watched how it developed, I'll say 50/50 at best.


"Limiting cargo canisters that can exist in space everywhere to 20 tons is working as intended." - Michael

I'm sorry, but after that incident I just face-pawed very hard.



I do want to believe the devs will keep an eye on the matter, and I fought very hard to make that the case the last beta where they almost killed off SCBs and introduced the terrible HRP and Rail meta.

This rail mod can't be fixed by changing the six attributes I mentioned, it's mechanic must change in some way or form or have a counter modification available.

'No class 3 multicannons would not be possible to balance'

'Missile damage is fine'

Also statements from devs and with 2.1 we even get class 4 mcannons. Missiles getting buffed to be useful who would've thought?

Cargo canister stuff was a fix to stop people dumping thousands of them near stations. They just didn't realize how it can hurt piracy and its fixed sometime ago too i think. Last time i checked we had an allowance to drop a 100.

That is the thing.. Situations like that its our job to bring to devs attention. Developing the game in their vision is their job and on that nobody here has any say.

Here is an idea i've been saving for beta:

An instant or faster deploy SCB mod like the ones before SCB changes. Should be easy to implement and since feedback cascade only collapse target shields while SCBs are deploying ( 4 second window ) lowering the window to get a shot in or eliminating it should be viable option or they can simply change the way Scbs work

 

[Zeta Legion]

'No class 3 multicannons would not be possible to balance'

'Missile damage is fine'

Also statements from devs and with 2.1 we even get class 4 mcannons. Missiles getting buffed to be useful who would've thought?

Cargo canister stuff was a fix to stop people dumping thousands of them near stations. They just didn't realize how it can hurt piracy and its fixed sometime ago too i think. Last time i checked we had an allowance to drop a 100.

That is the thing.. Situations like that its our job to bring to devs attention. Developing the game in their vision is their job and on that nobody here has any say.

Here is an idea i've been saving for beta:

An instant or faster deploy SCB mod like the ones before SCB changes. Should be easy to implement and since feedback cascade only collapse target shields while SCBs are deploying ( 4 second window ) lowering the window to get a shot in or eliminating it should be viable option or they can simply change the way Scbs work

You know I'm 100% convinced the real reason they didn't add C3 multis is because it'd shine a spotlight on how incredibly mediocre cannons are by taking away their only advantage, which is being the only low energy cost kinetic C3 and C4 weapon.

 

[GSRTrent]

All I have to say is to tread lightly, with this one, Frontier. And listen to the community. Us, as a community, is your best source of information.

 

[MarcusKross]

You know I'm 100% convinced the real reason they didn't add C3 multis is because it'd shine a spotlight on how incredibly mediocre cannons are by taking away their only advantage, which is being the only low energy cost kinetic C3 and C4 weapon.

That is exactly why cannons need a projectile speed buff right now with 2.1. Now that we will be having huge beam/pulse lasers along with the huge mcannon, nobody would want to fit a weapon which cant even reliably hit a LARGE ship further from 300 meters. Maybe i should make a thread about that..

 

[Zeta Legion]

That is exactly why cannons need a projectile speed buff right now with 2.1. Now that we will be having huge beam/pulse lasers along with the huge mcannon, nobody would want to fit a weapon which cant even reliably hit a LARGE ship further from 300 meters. Maybe i should make a thread about that..

Agreed. At least the PA has alpha damage going for it.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

That is exactly why cannons need a projectile speed buff right now with 2.1. Now that we will be having huge beam/pulse lasers along with the huge mcannon, nobody would want to fit a weapon which cant even reliably hit a LARGE ship further from 300 meters. Maybe i should make a thread about that..

That's why I pulled off the Class 4 cannon. It's ideal range is not so different from frag cannons which do vastly more damage to make it not even worth mounting. Class 2s are good imo. They need to find either more common ground, or drastically increase it's damage to compensate for it's ridiculously low muzzle velocity. IIRC, someone measured that Napoleanic era cannons had a higher muzzle velocity, which is pretty sad.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Cargo canister stuff was a fix to stop people dumping thousands of them near stations. They just didn't realize how it can hurt piracy and its fixed sometime ago too i think. Last time i checked we had an allowance to drop a 100.

Yea, it got fixed, 6-8 patches later after the beta where everyone was telling them how it was not a great move, and I was the prominent advocate that got the thing fixed.

That is the thing.. Situations like that its our job to bring to devs attention. Developing the game in their vision is their job and on that nobody here has any say.

Yes, it's our job to make sure they don't kill off their vision by not paying attention to their game.

An instant or faster deploy SCB mod like the ones before SCB changes. Should be easy to implement and since feedback cascade only collapse target shields while SCBs are deploying ( 4 second window ) lowering the window to get a shot in or eliminating it should be viable option or they can simply change the way Scbs work

That would make sense, as long as they don't somehow kill off another population.

 

[MarcusKross]

Agreed. At least the PA has alpha damage going for it.

And a workable projectile speed.