Building the game around NOT walking!

Pretty much every avenue of interaction that space legs would open up could be opened up through existing in-cockpit interfaces, telepresence or by remote-control drones (infiltrator limpets?), all of which would require far less dev work as they will be tapping into existing mechanics, controls and physics rather than having to pretty much build a new game from scratch.

But there is an entire game to be played. Hopefully SL will be separate like Horizons, so those who don't want to play outside of the cockpit will not have to do so. It is not about what is most efficient, it is about having a game to play. Lots of games are FP, so there are many new elements that could be introduced into the ED universe.
 
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Why does "Walking Avatars" automatically equate with "First Person Shooter"? It doesnt.
Same as a "Sandbox Game" doesnt automatically mean "Free-for-All PvP"

#107:
The reason why it keeps coming up is because with a FPS, the walking about bit is part of the game. Pretty much the only part you see. Wheras with this space flight sim, it's been written with your legs stuck in the seat. Therefore there is no game to play if they just make you walk about. The "Debug cam" would not be space legs nor interesting to those wanting space legs, even though it could be made to walk through a "real ship" as if it were your eyeballs walking around in the ship.

And at the moment, the only place you can walk with space legs is the cockpit. NOWHERE ELSE. It's not even modeled.The doors don't open. There's no interior. No walkways, no cargo racks "correctly placed", no interior areas filled with the kit you picked out in the Outfitting screen.

So there isn't anywhere other than the cockpit to walk around in. And no ineteractive surfaces.

Because these, important and therefore alrady implemented in an FPS, necessary environment tricks are not required for a space flight sim where you are stuck in a virtual seat.

So BEFORE you can get space legs, you need at least the environment to use them.

Which is why it is important to point out that this is not an FPS, therefore completely lacking in all this environment an FPS comes built with, including legs.
 
#107:
Wheras with this space flight sim

No it is not. Kerbal is a Space Flight Sim. Orbiter is a Space Flight Sim. People have been talking about a first person module since kickstarter, and the ships were designed to scale so it would be possible. no one is under the illusion it is taking place now, they are talking about at a future date. You know how before you could drive around on planets, people talked about driving around on planets. Hope that clarifies things lol
 
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And you clearly haven't looked into coding for FPS games, as they require quite a lot of work to prevent players falling through floors or having to jump up staircases.

Not to mention clipping and edge capture. Remember what happenswhen you use the cam view inside a station and swing it round a large ship? You see inside the "walls" and bits of the ship are clipping through the ceiling bars.

And if you have a physics model to make you sit on the "floor", you will get jumping as the maths tries to find where your body model ends and the surface begins and keep them touching but not buried in each other, and finding that when it rounds the numbers one way, you're under the surface, and rounding the other leaves you floating, where the physics engine will drop you down and you're now clipping again, so forced up... and so the cycle continues. From your POV, you are stuck and jittery.

For a freefall system, you will have to either have you fly with no "space arms" and no point to the handholds, or you will need to animate and either automatically use or control via input, the arms and the grab reflex (and letting go) AND the collision necessary to make the illusion of grip and pull yourself along.

When doors open, they can't leave gaps or have poor fitting textures. There can't be any rips.

And some textures will need upping because they've been able to use poor cheats or repeats because you've never been close to the back wall...

And that's just to get you out the door. And in a stationary ship. What happens when it's moving or being shot (or hit by missiles?)

You then have to add something else to do.

Which is why a station walk in the shipyard or outfitters would be much easier. Stationary ship, gravity.
 
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Telepresence and digital menus do indeed remove the requirement for all those interiors of ships and stations, however they could easily implement interiors all via drones. If they added in some kind of infiltration limpet or drone (drones might be necessary if the interiors are too small for limpets), it would still give the gameplay opportunities of exploring derelicts, looting abandoned stations, boarding capital ships and looking around on stations, while also using existing ship control mechanics (saving both Dev resources as well as adding additional spaceship gameplay into a game all about flying space ships, rather than diluting the game with a spinoff gimmick). Anyone who has ever played any of the Descent games can testify how fun it is to control ships in an indoor zero-G environment.

And you clearly haven't looked into coding for FPS games, as they require quite a lot of work to prevent players falling through floors or having to jump up staircases. Collision and physics models for a free-flight model with appropriate bouncing off surfaces are completely different to a fully controllable FPS, unless they go for the easy route and say that you navigate your ships using an EVA backpack with it's monopropellant jets - in which case you are effectively in a small ship anyway.

The usage of drones would also remove the issues surrounding pilot mortality. Ships have ejector seats (albeit only one, in clear disregard for crew safety), SLFs use telepresence, but nobody would ever risk their lives to go looking around a derelict (goodbye life, goodbye game save, hello Sidewinder!).
Descent was a game in the 90s; fun for what it was back then but we've moved on from that in terms of gameplay sophistication. To be honest what you describe would feel like a gimmick to me and a cop out. I don't just want to play a minigame of walking/floating around like I've just logged into Descent: updated graphics version. I want an integrated experience that feels like I'm always playing as my CMDR in the same game: Elite Dangerous.

Decent, actual FPS is doable it's not impossible. So what you're suggesting is that we lower the bar to lessen the dev workload. That's fine if that's your opinion but in my opinion if we're worried about how difficult this will be on the devs then why are we funding them?

Seriously, why am I supporting and funding the continued development of this game if all we're going to get is the lowest viable product every damn time for everything? Simply to save the devs the time and the effort it takes to get it right.

If that's our attitude and approach then Elite Dangerous is already a complete game. For an example of the impact of advocating the bare minimum approach:
- Landable atmospheric worlds and gas giants? Nah, too much work we already have giant empty rocks to land on. That's enough.
- Comets? Nah, too much work to code, empty space is good enough.
- Exciting stellar phenomena? Too much work.
- Scientifically accurate black holes? Too much coding
- More depth to exploration? No, we're good with the bare minimum.
- Big game hunting on planets? Whoa there! Way too much work.
- Mysterious alien ruins? Meh, just copy and paste the first base we make.
- An actual military career with consequences of earning titles? Too much work, we already have a below average meaningless grind with titles that mean nothing and have no impact. That's good enough.
- Thargoids? What are you crazy!? You know how much thought and design and coding and implementation the devs have to put into this? We already have scripted alien encounters, we don't need something that's better and more exciting.

Would you want to continue funding a game that employs this approach?
 
The thing that worries me is they can't even change HUD color because the code is a mess. If they can't do such a simple thing as that, i've got zero confidence in space legs being implemented years from now.
 
The thing that worries me is they can't even change HUD color because the code is a mess. If they can't do such a simple thing as that, i've got zero confidence in space legs being implemented years from now.

They can. But they're not indexed colours, so you have to modify them by fiddling the entire colour wheel. Which means a lot of the combinations are bad.

And HUD colour changes aren't much of an issue when your main display is black and what isn't is the cockpit whose colours you choose in the design.

They probably just didn't want or think of making the colours indexed and relocatable. The colours they'd have to let you change would be HUGE. Who would go through them all to make sure they didn't clash?
 
Would you want to continue funding a game that employs this approach?

images.jpg
 
If you look, in the ships and stations, via a bit of external camera trickery, they aren't made yet.
True. Not yet but according to the devs the models have the necessary space alocated in their wireframe models to be able to allow for future addition of 'rooms' that we can physically walk in.
 
True. Not yet but according to the devs the models have the necessary space alocated in their wireframe models to be able to allow for future addition of 'rooms' that we can physically walk in.

But i thought Braben said the entirety of the Conda's insides was already modeled and it's the size of an FPS level.

Which one is true?
 
Descent was a game in the 90s; fun for what it was back then but we've moved on from that in terms of gameplay sophistication. To be honest what you describe would feel like a gimmick to me and a cop out. I don't just want to play a minigame of walking/floating around like I've just logged into Descent: updated graphics version. I want an integrated experience that feels like I'm always playing as my CMDR in the same game: Elite Dangerous.

Decent, actual FPS is doable it's not impossible. So what you're suggesting is that we lower the bar to lessen the dev workload. That's fine if that's your opinion but in my opinion if we're worried about how difficult this will be on the devs then why are we funding them?

Seriously, why am I supporting and funding the continued development of this game if all we're going to get is the lowest viable product every damn time for everything? Simply to save the devs the time and the effort it takes to get it right.

If that's our attitude and approach then Elite Dangerous is already a complete game. For an example of the impact of advocating the bare minimum approach:
- Landable atmospheric worlds and gas giants? Nah, too much work we already have giant empty rocks to land on. That's enough.
- Comets? Nah, too much work to code, empty space is good enough.
- Exciting stellar phenomena? Too much work.
- Scientifically accurate black holes? Too much coding
- More depth to exploration? No, we're good with the bare minimum.
- Big game hunting on planets? Whoa there! Way too much work.
- Mysterious alien ruins? Meh, just copy and paste the first base we make.
- An actual military career with consequences of earning titles? Too much work, we already have a below average meaningless grind with titles that mean nothing and have no impact. That's good enough.
- Thargoids? What are you crazy!? You know how much thought and design and coding and implementation the devs have to put into this? We already have scripted alien encounters, we don't need something that's better and more exciting.

Would you want to continue funding a game that employs this approach?

All the other things you suggest are things that you expect in a space sim though, people expect to land on planets, come across weird and wibbly things in space and interact with the galaxy via their ship. It's the same formula that pretty much every space sim has used going all the way back to the original Elite, including games such as the X-series and Eve. Does it involve flying around in my ship and doing spacey or shippy things? Then it's probably within the scope of the game and is worthy of reasonable developer attention, or at very least developer consideration.

Space legs is basically creating an entirely different game within a game - it's not Elite, it's CoD: Elite Edition. If they were to create it as an entirely standalone game and posit it as a spin-off, then I'd have no such issues. However, investing vast sums of money and Dev resources into a minigame that could be funnelled into the actual game is pretty bad form. It would be like buying a football manager game and finding that development on the training regimen customiser has been suspended so that the Devs can invest their full attention on the "play board games with Terry the intern in the club office" minigame.

There's also the issue of the general gameplay/cost ratio, which is an important point for any developer but is doubly so for a small one. Anything that offers very little gameplay benefits at the cost of great developer resources should be rightfully either shelved or reworked.

The Descent point was just an example of a reasonable action game for how drones might interact with indoor environments, however there's little reason as to why the exact same basic set of mechanics couldn't be used to create puzzle, investigation or horror styled gameplay. The point was simply that with a first-person view on a craft that is roughly the scale of a human, anything a human can do or anywhere a human could go such a drone could follow suit, offering the exact same overall gameplay except with a ship-style control layout rather than effectively creating an entirely new out-of-genre game within the game that only shares a graphics engine
 
All the other things you suggest are things that you expect in a space sim though, people expect to land on planets, come across weird and wibbly things in space and interact with the galaxy via their ship. It's the same formula that pretty much every space sim has used going all the way back to the original Elite, including games such as the X-series and Eve. Does it involve flying around in my ship and doing spacey or shippy things? Then it's probably within the scope of the game and is worthy of reasonable developer attention, or at very least developer consideration.

Space legs is basically creating an entirely different game within a game - it's not Elite, it's CoD: Elite Edition. If they were to create it as an entirely standalone game and posit it as a spin-off, then I'd have no such issues. However, investing vast sums of money and Dev resources into a minigame that could be funnelled into the actual game is pretty bad form. It would be like buying a football manager game and finding that development on the training regimen customiser has been suspended so that the Devs can invest their full attention on the "play board games with Terry the intern in the club office" minigame.

There's also the issue of the general gameplay/cost ratio, which is an important point for any developer but is doubly so for a small one. Anything that offers very little gameplay benefits at the cost of great developer resources should be rightfully either shelved or reworked.

The Descent point was just an example of a reasonable action game for how drones might interact with indoor environments, however there's little reason as to why the exact same basic set of mechanics couldn't be used to create puzzle, investigation or horror styled gameplay. The point was simply that with a first-person view on a craft that is roughly the scale of a human, anything a human can do or anywhere a human could go such a drone could follow suit, offering the exact same overall gameplay except with a ship-style control layout rather than effectively creating an entirely new out-of-genre game within the game that only shares a graphics engine

Elite's steadfast refusal to veer away from the (frankly tired and played out) tropes of the Space Sim genre has so far drug it down from the heights of its considerable potential.

In interesting Sci Fi, NOTHING cool or fun ever happens in the ship. Ships are a means to an end. They get you to the adventure. They are not, in themselves, the adventure. And yet the Space sim has routinely managed to forget this simple fact. Its a genre built ENTIRELY around what is routinely the LEAST interesting facet of sci fi, and indeed of fiction in general.

Honestly, I think the game would have been far more compelling and engaging if it HAD been focused on walking around, or at least on doing SOMETHING besides playing Load Screens in Space. But alas, the developers couldnt let go of 1984 and all of the technical limitations that come with it, so instead, they retextured 30 years ago in HD and called it a new game.
 
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I accept we can't walk, and am considering whether it makes sense to add in walking 'later' and all the implications that will have.

I think walking would be nice. Imagine docking at a station, getting out, visiting a lobby with real 3d mission givers and vendors instead of click menus. Also, you could shoot the breeze with other cmdrs in a safe non shooting environment which would encourage community interaction. Or imagine infiltrating bases on foot, scanning data points discreetly with a hand scanner or planting charges on a generator without having to blast your way in. Of course they have to come up with a seamless game engine that allows this, which will take time, unless you want to watch your character walk down a ramp for 30 seconds every time while the walk around engine loads.
 
How would it be hard to implement?
Mission system:
- Now, navigate a menu then click a button
- Then, navigate a office, talk to a person (Same functionality but represented with models instead of 2D UI)

Entering SRV:
- now, open srv tab, hit button to enter
- The, walk to srv bay, hit button for enter animation (Same functionality but accessed via hallways in your ship instead of 2D UI)


Multi-Crew:

- now, navigate menu to find friend, hit button to go to ship
- Then, navigate station to friend, walk up ship stairs to enter ship (Same functionality but requires you to walk into ship instead of telelport)


Are you really not capable of thinking this far ahead? No one creates vehicle enter animations before the vehicle is drivable. It seems pretty clear that you don't have much game development experience, if any at all. Id suggest sticking to topics you know about in the future.
 
True. Not yet but according to the devs the models have the necessary space alocated in their wireframe models to be able to allow for future addition of 'rooms' that we can physically walk in.

Ace though that must be daunting, I found a way to sneak into the unmade space in the Coriolis and it's a massive area.
 
But i thought Braben said the entirety of the Conda's insides was already modeled and it's the size of an FPS level.

Which one is true?

If Braben said it. What Braben said. The other guy does not work at Frontier and he is guessing at best. Although modeled and textured/detailed are different things.
 
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But i thought Braben said the entirety of the Conda's insides was already modeled and it's the size of an FPS level.

Which one is true?

I never sneaked into the cobra with the external camera, would you try it and report back here?

- - - Updated - - -

Elite's steadfast refusal to veer away from the (frankly tired and played out) tropes of the Space Sim genre has so far drug it down from the heights of its considerable potential.

In interesting Sci Fi, NOTHING cool or fun ever happens in the ship. Ships are a means to an end. They get you to the adventure. They are not, in themselves, the adventure. And yet the Space sim has routinely managed to forget this simple fact. Its a genre built ENTIRELY around what is routinely the LEAST interesting facet of sci fi, and indeed of fiction in general.

Honestly, I think the game would have been far more compelling and engaging if it HAD been focused on walking around, or at least on doing SOMETHING besides playing Load Screens in Space. But alas, the developers couldnt let go of 1984 and all of the technical limitations that come with it, so instead, they retextured 30 years ago in HD and called it a new game.

The ships are my favourite thing in the game still and perhaps sadly, I've spent, and part recouped over 13 billion in outfitting!
 
But i thought Braben said the entirety of the Conda's insides was already modeled and it's the size of an FPS level.

Which one is true?
Far as I know he's never said the insides are ready. He just said, paraphrasing here: "Conda is well massive lads. Yuuuuge! Size of an FPS level yuge." *genuflects* :D
 
I think walking would be nice. Imagine docking at a station, getting out, visiting a lobby with real 3d mission givers and vendors instead of click menus. Also, you could shoot the breeze with other cmdrs in a safe non shooting environment which would encourage community interaction. Or imagine infiltrating bases on foot, scanning data points discreetly with a hand scanner or planting charges on a generator without having to blast your way in. Of course they have to come up with a seamless game engine that allows this, which will take time, unless you want to watch your character walk down a ramp for 30 seconds every time while the walk around engine loads.

I really love what might happen when we can meet other Commanders I stations.
 
The telepresence is basically a holographic image. It cant defend the ship, it probably wont even be able to leave the seat. If you want a freind to be in your ship he is probably going to have to pshyically get on it.

I dont se know why people are g out over this ruining space legs. How does it reuin space legs. YOu are saying that just because you don't have to get out and walk into another persons ship it ruins everything? Really? ONE THING OUT OF A HUNDRED!?

I prefer this sytem. People complained about the lack of co op and MP in Elite. THis will add a lot to that. You can request help in conflict zones and bounty area's. I think whats really happening is everyone was REALLY hoping that this patch would bring walking around, and it didn't. So people got angry at having to wait.

I see nothing here that suggest walking won't be coming.
 
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