Bullet Sponge NPCs - Does Anyone Enjoy This?

[cmdr Ramius007]

I like new CZ NPC's but i also think that high intensity should be more challenging instead of just longer, its easy to do, just give those spec ops proper pvp builds instead of phasing lasers and similar crap, and TBH seeing asp as part of those spec ops wings brings my smile every time i see it, some variety is nice but instead give us some enhanced dirty drives 5 couriers or vipers, stealth frag DBS's maybe and so other scary things. And FD, bring those engineered cutters from wing assassination missions i saw in previous version of game back, please!

 

[sollisb]

Just curious, not a rant at all.

My personal opinion on bullet sponge NPC's is, I don't like it.
Most NPC's aren't particularly difficult to kill, they just take a long time.
Which in most cases (especially CZ T-10s), just involves holding the trigger until a pretty explosions happens. Not difficult at all, just a slow process, and you're rarely in any danger, and you don't even need to do much else.

Spec ops in CZs can be quite lethal in groups, but 1v1 is never an issue.
Again, they just take a long time to kill.

Personally, what I consider a fun battle, is being outnumbered by high damage output NPC's, but with weaker shields and hulls.

A good way to do this pre-3.3 was carry cargo in to RES sites and CNBs.
All hell would break loose, you'd be quickly under attack by multiple opponents, most of them weren't particularly tanky, but offen did a lot of damage.

Back in the old days of 1.4 I believe, some missions would spawn 11 sidewinders in wings to try and kill. Unfortunately a bug meant they weren't flagged as mission targets, but still, diving in to and 11v1 fight was hell of a good fight. Offen being pecked to death in the process. (pre-Engineers!)

All my favourite battles seem to involve fighting when I'm outnumbered, and outgunned.
Even a bugged assassination mission doubled up two Elite Corvettes to take on, in my Python.
That was fun.


If it were possible, I'd ask FD to tone down the hitpoints on NPC's, and increase their damage and numbers instead.

What are your opinions?
Do you like the bullet sponges, more weaker opponents, or something else?

Your idea would work fine against Engineered ships etc, but what about the non-engineered ships?

The problem is Frontier have a propensity to spawn ships from the current engineered meta table against all and sundry.. A ship with higher output would decimate non-engineered ships.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

It's hard to deny the issue of too high TTK in both engineered PvP and PvE. However, it's hard to address this without either nerfing people's stuff (which they tend to hate) or by widening the already-cavernous gap between engineered gankers or NPCs and newer players.

I think the only viable solution is to buff base modules, and reducing engineering blueprints to keep engineered ships at roughly the same values.

For instance, if you double the damage output of all weapons, double the base shields of all ships, and halve the base value of all shield boosters, you end up with a far more reasonable TTK for engineered ships despite having the same raw MJ.

However, things get complicated when you consider proportional vs additive modules. It might be hard to balance things like HRPs, MRPs, SCBs and SRPs. Resistances in general will be hard to figure out. But frankly, all defences are due for a rebalance relative to each other anyway so some tweaks are probably welcome

 

[who?]

After an experience last night, I'm wondering if this might partially be a bug in the hit-boxes of certain ships?

Had a couple of fights last night - against a (Competent) Alliance Crusader, and a (Master) Python. The Python was a little annoying, but once I got the shields down I was getting 1-2% hull down every second I was shooting on target.

The (lower level/'easier') Crusader was something else entirely. Once I got the shields down, it was taking anywhere between 5 and 15 seconds to take down 1% of its hull. That was... pretty tedious. I was taking limited damage from it firing back, and more from other ships joining in; so by the time I'd destroyed that one ship my multi-cannons were almost out of ammo and I'd expended all 4 shield-cells I was carrying. The Viper Mk IV is another I've seen this in - a Competent NPC took painfully long to kill. If it chooses to run, I can't really do anything about it since I can't damage it quick enough. (Do I need to switch to module sniping?)

 

[Muetdhiver]

It might come down to damaging internals instead of the hull.
This is very visible on pimped up ships like the Viper IV.

 

[Krash]

I added packhounds to my CZ mothership. I can say this reduces the TTK of these new so called bullet sponges.

 

[Hullreaver]

After an experience last night, I'm wondering if this might partially be a bug in the hit-boxes of certain ships?

Had a couple of fights last night - against a (Competent) Alliance Crusader, and a (Master) Python. The Python was a little annoying, but once I got the shields down I was getting 1-2% hull down every second I was shooting on target.

The (lower level/'easier') Crusader was something else entirely. Once I got the shields down, it was taking anywhere between 5 and 15 seconds to take down 1% of its hull. That was... pretty tedious. I was taking limited damage from it firing back, and more from other ships joining in; so by the time I'd destroyed that one ship my multi-cannons were almost out of ammo and I'd expended all 4 shield-cells I was carrying. The Viper Mk IV is another I've seen this in - a Competent NPC took painfully long to kill. If it chooses to run, I can't really do anything about it since I can't damage it quick enough. (Do I need to switch to module sniping?)

Happened to me yesterday. Spec ops Viper. I started hammering it with 4 engineered MC's. After about 2 minutes his shields were down and after another 30 second the hull was at ... 95%. Really? In the meantime, I was getting hit with railgun and PA fire from him and then several of his Spec ops buddies joined in and I had to tuck my tail in and run with 28% hull left. Wonder what kind of load out the Viper had to withstand that kind of fire for that long and hardly drop anything? I get MC's are not the best for taking shields down, but the hull?

 

[Acceleratio]

Not a fan of bullet sponge mechanics in games in general. Elite combat has suffered more and more since the introduction of engineers.

On the other hand I am a super crap pilot who cant stay behind an Anaconda while in a fully engineer vulture so I guess an I am a casual and my opinion is null and void in the eyes of the combat gods of this almighty forum. Its all about challenge and risk and reward! The games HAS to punishe and get unfun just like real life. Coz thats what we all strife for these days

 

[Blackcompany]

Not a fan of bullet sponge mechanics in games in general. Elite combat has suffered more and more since the introduction of engineers.

On the other hand I am a super crap pilot who cant stay behind an Anaconda while in a fully engineer vulture so I guess an I am a casual and my opinion is null and void in the eyes of the combat gods of this almighty forum. Its all about challenge and risk and reward! The games HAS to punishe and get unfun just like real life. Coz thats what we all strife for these days

The RNGineers lead to the exact place a lot of us knew it was headed, where combat was concerned:

Introduce grind centric power creep to keep people playing
See min maxers get the best of everything
Listen to bored min maxers (and, to be fair, the top notch, most highly skilled pilots among us) complain that everything is too easy
Inevitably adjust the game to keep around the loyal, min maxing grinders...making the game unfun, if not impossible, for the rest of us

Any time a game introduces gross power creep to keep players, this is the inevitable result.

 

[Tel Prydain]

I disagree with the OP - longer firefights are exactly what should be happening (at least with the larger ships).
I find the idea of having any large ship coming under fire and then exploding 40sec later to be antithetical to the setting.

I'd like to see hit points on player and NPC ships either cut in half or have the damage of all weapons doubled. Basically the same result. A "dogfight" game has turned into a battle of attrition game and a contest of who has mooar ammo or mooar shield cells. It bothers me.

Medium-to-large ships shouldn't BE dogfighting - we're flying massive star-ships, not F16s.

Do you think those are people who don't own Horizons?

I mean... there are. They're obviously going to be newer or casual players, so they're less likely to be here on the forum.
But more to the point, even if they were combined, ideally engineering wouldn't be a mandatory activity from the moment your sidewinder launches. I'd agree engineering should be required for CZs where you're taking the military on in force - but in the overall meta, engineering isn't optional.

Back in the day there was talk of engineered modules showing up in black markets - available to everyone. The idea being that engineering would allow you access to higher grades and choice of upgrade, whereas the modules in black markets would be pure RNG. Bringing that idea back would allow some measure of balance for newer players and/or non-Horizons players. Pity it seems to have been dropped.

Couldn't they 'mix' the two?
For CZ's, keep them as the war of attrition for BGS purposes, and have RES sites and CNB's populated with some wings of high-DPS low-HP opponents.

I believe that's how it is. I see zero issues with giving system defense and literal military ships highly-engineered defenses.

I hate it in any game. Its just feels too fake and a dumb mechanic.

Normally I agree with you. It's most glaring in Division where apparently multiple sniper shots to the head are a mare inconvenience.
But these are starships. In many cases military starships. There's a difference between a dude in a singlet being tanky and a literal tank being tanky.
I think it would be more fake and dumb if a star destroyer burst into flames the moment that a X-Wing scored a glancing blow.

I will quote myself: I've already said many times, long time-to-kill makes fight less skill-dependent, and more build-dependent.

I disagree - long TTK makes twitch reflexes less important and allows battles to be more tactical and strategy dependent.
Part of the strategy is going in prepared, but tactically if two big ships are dueling, they should be targeting specific modules, not just blasting away at a hull.

I want to see less "fire meta weapon @ hull til pop", and more using a variety of weapons to work around countermeasures and target specific modules during a prolonged engagement.

 

[_trent_]

I'm also starting to wonder if there isn't something bugged about NPCs in the CZs at the moment. I'm pretty sure it wasn't as tedious to take down ships when 3.3 first came out.

Earlier today I hit a 'master' Asp Explorer at point blank range (less than 100m) with a full salvo of 6 shots each from 3 large G5 engineered doubleshot frag cannons. It lost 4% hull. Later I took an assasination mission against a 'deadly' corvette. The same type of hit from the same weapons took 41% hull off the corvette.

Based on those observations, it seems that the AspX had about 10x as many hull points as the pirate corvette. I'd be a bit miffed if this situation was 'by design'.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Based on those observations, it seems that the AspX had about 10x as many hull points as the pirate corvette. I'd be a bit miffed if this situation was 'by design'.

Conversely I'd argue that a pirate ship should be made of rust and paper, while any military ship should have top-of-the-line protections and engineering.
10x might be a tad over-the-top, but the gist of it is in the right direction.

 

[ebbrell]

Nothing wrong with NPCs in CZs, they are now a decent challenge. Yes they take a little more to kill, and spec ops a little more. But nothing needs to change.

If anything the hi res sites hi rank NPcs need to match CZ none spec ops levels

 

[_trent_]

Conversely I'd argue that a pirate ship should be made of rust and paper, while any military ship should have top-of-the-line protections and engineering.
10x might be a tad over-the-top, but the gist of it is in the right direction.

Not sure why you'd expect pirate ships to be quite so poorly maintained and outfitted. Pirate ships in E : D mostly belong to the criminal/anarchy factions that can own stations and entire systems, so it stands to reason that the ships that they do their 'business' in should be at least a match for the average SA ship or bounty hunter.

I have absolutely no problems whatsoever taking down the NPCs as they are now, it just takes a really long time to do and makes the CZs a bit of a slog. I'm not sure the intention was for it to take that long.

 

[Flin]

I'm also starting to wonder if there isn't something bugged about NPCs in the CZs at the moment. I'm pretty sure it wasn't as tedious to take down ships when 3.3 first came out.

Earlier today I hit a 'master' Asp Explorer at point blank range (less than 100m) with a full salvo of 6 shots each from 3 large G5 engineered doubleshot frag cannons. It lost 4% hull. Later I took an assasination mission against a 'deadly' corvette. The same type of hit from the same weapons took 41% hull off the corvette.

Based on those observations, it seems that the AspX had about 10x as many hull points as the pirate corvette. I'd be a bit miffed if this situation was 'by design'.

I also encountered bugs in CZ and it's also occured with an AspE with infinite hull. Was shooting point blank with 2 hugh multicannon for 3 seconds doing 0% hull damage. Low waked out and back in to reset.

CZ ships are tougher than pirate ships in pirate massacre or assassination missions, so for the most part is what I would expect from military ships.

Need more tweaks like opportunities for coordinating with NPCs and more spec ops mission objectives rather than pure attrition. It's obvious harder to get the kills and massacre count now.

 

[sollisb]

As I metnioned on the discord and will state here for public evaluation...While I agree that bullet sponges aren't the only way or the best way to accomplish a difficulty hike; compared to what we had before, yes, I enjoy the new CZs more.

CZs aren't a place to just go shoot a few NPCs and collect a few credits, that's what RES and CNBs are for. CZs are the place where BGS wars are won and lost. There are two important things that the new system promotes...

1) It means that a few casual pilots who aren't BGS specialists, jumping in and killing a few ships for a laugh, is unlikely to be critical in the outcome of a war if BGS players are putting dedicated effort in. In the past, CZs were easy enough that a group just having an afternoon in a CZ could have a strong effect on the war.
2) New pilots with less well equipped ships and or less developed skills, are rightly and properly, not able to keep up with CZ monsters such as those that we employ when we want to actually win a conflict.

Essentially, conflict zones are not just toys and should not be accessible to 'just any' player. I like that they have now shifted toward being an end game activity. But once again, yes, bullet sponges seems a little unimaginative. But I'm loathe to complain, as they're so much better than what we had. When FD irons out the details of the mechanics, I'll be really happy with them, bullet sponges and all.

For me, the balance is out the window. How much to you earn in a CZ after an hours play? How much do I earn in an asteroid layer doing an hour mining?

NPCs combat needs a complete overhaul.

o There should be tiers of NPC
o Each Tier should be behind a wall. CZ easy, CZ Medium, CZ Difficult, ResLow, ResHigh, HazRez, CNB etc
o Tiers can be broken into Engineered, non-engineered.
o Payout should be balanced against the NPC Rank and those tiers.

This lark of paying rubbish, and every fight being you against a suicide NPC is plain dumb, not worth the effort, and pits the same NPCs against everyone, whether they're engineered or not.

My newest account 'mostly harmless' in her un-engineered Anaconda, was interdicted by an Elite Anaconda trying to pirate her Opals. Trying to fight a ship like that is insane at that level.

The entire gameplay needs a proper balance overhaul.

 

[Misty_Dark]

The fact that NPCs have much stronger hulls while the live player didn't get a buff doesn't seem to be the best way offer more challenging combat. All it really did in a CZ is to have the player hold down the trigger longer and restock ammo more often. Meanwhile interdicted trading ships if they fight are more at a disadvantage unless they carry less cargo with more engineered defense and weapons. It just extends a fight with no real change in a challenging NPC.

Well we already got our buff before, it came in two waves, called Engineering, and Engineering 2.


Also, I do believe that ships in CZ now have appropriate combat builds, with hull reinforcements etc. Just like we player mostly do. So they did not get magically more armour, they got a proper build that suits their combat role better. And this had the effect that they can now take alot more damage.



So this is more of actually adapting NPC ships to follow player builds. And they are still far away from being competitive from equally run player ships.

I mean, take the toughened up enemy captain corvette, he is not up to par against my Corvette, and I carry junk like 4 SRVs, Collector and repair limpet controllers, 128T cargo rack. FSD Booster, to name a few of the non combat stuff I have.

Even their Spec Ops vultures cannot hold their own grounds against my Vulture.


Not to say any of these two examples means that the NPCs are bad, they dangerous and to inexperienced players, these are a serious threat. but they are not up to pair with what a comparable player ship of the same class....





Comparing your trader ship with these CZ ships, you are totally correct, replacing cargo racks with hull reinforcements gives better survivability. Common sense dictates that, but we also have the hull of the ship to consider.

You can test this out by yourself,
Take a stock ship (preferably a cheaper one).

• Now add some cargo and visit some haz res and see how long your hull last against the pirate. Yeah, that lightweight stuff does not cut it very long! What a suprise.
• Now buy one better class hull, and repeat, notice how you now last a bit longer, due to not having paper thin armour. Still rubbish armour...
• Now buy the military grade hull and repeat, notice how you now last quite a bit longer when you put some actual armour on your ship.

Of course putting some military grade hull on your ship will affect stuff like jump range a bit. but it is a good start survive longer, and this might be what is needed to escape.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I'm also starting to wonder if there isn't something bugged about NPCs in the CZs at the moment. I'm pretty sure it wasn't as tedious to take down ships when 3.3 first came out.

Earlier today I hit a 'master' Asp Explorer at point blank range (less than 100m) with a full salvo of 6 shots each from 3 large G5 engineered doubleshot frag cannons. It lost 4% hull. Later I took an assasination mission against a 'deadly' corvette. The same type of hit from the same weapons took 41% hull off the corvette.

Based on those observations, it seems that the AspX had about 10x as many hull points as the pirate corvette. I'd be a bit miffed if this situation was 'by design'.

pirate corvettes does not fill their entire ship with hull reinforcements. they want to carry some cargo racks, and most of the time a a few SCBs, then I guess they have limpet controller etc. and they might be cheap scates and not buying the good hull, but instead stick to the stock paper thin stuff.

And the AspX have atleast military grade hull, mostly hull reinforcements.



So you cannot really compare these two like this. And we have not covered that it is also easier to land more of the "bullets" on a Corvette than on an AspX.

 

[Old Duck]

I've had bounty hunters recently come after me in "bullet sponges", and I didn't like it much, mainly because it was unrealistic for the ships they were flying vs. the dps I was dumping into them. On the flip-side, the Type-9 that I destroyed (which gained the attention of said bounty hunters) went down way too quickly for a ship that size.

The question I have is are these 'bullet sponges' realistic, possible builds for players? In my early days of amateur PvP, I took down a Python in my Viper III, partly because I was a bullet sponge. This was before I had unlocked defensive engineers, but I had the best armor money could buy, and every available slot had HRPs installed. I was actually surprised how tough that little ship was (though I suspect the player I was up against also had limited engineering).

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well we already got our buff before, it came in two waves, called Engineering, and Engineering 2.


Also, I do believe that ships in CZ now have appropriate combat builds, with hull reinforcements etc. Just like we player mostly do. So they did not get magically more armour, they got a proper build that suits their combat role better. And this had the effect that they can now take alot more damage.



So this is more of actually adapting NPC ships to follow player builds. And they are still far away from being competitive from equally run player ships.

I mean, take the toughened up enemy captain corvette, he is not up to par against my Corvette, and I carry junk like 4 SRVs, Collector and repair limpet controllers, 128T cargo rack. FSD Booster, to name a few of the non combat stuff I have.

Even their Spec Ops vultures cannot hold their own grounds against my Vulture.


Not to say any of these two examples means that the NPCs are bad, they dangerous and to inexperienced players, these are a serious threat. but they are not up to pair with what a comparable player ship of the same class....





Comparing your trader ship with these CZ ships, you are totally correct, replacing cargo racks with hull reinforcements gives better survivability. Common sense dictates that, but we also have the hull of the ship to consider.

You can test this out by yourself,
Take a stock ship (preferably a cheaper one).

• Now add some cargo and visit some haz res and see how long your hull last against the pirate. Yeah, that lightweight stuff does not cut it very long! What a suprise.
• Now buy one better class hull, and repeat, notice how you now last a bit longer, due to not having paper thin armour. Still rubbish armour...
• Now buy the military grade hull and repeat, notice how you now last quite a bit longer when you put some actual armour on your ship.

Of course putting some military grade hull on your ship will affect stuff like jump range a bit. but it is a good start survive longer, and this might be what is needed to escape.

No, that is not a buff, that is bloody power creep. Buff is when you make existing stuff more powerful. Power creep is when you devalue existing content with gear and upgrades that make everything vanilla obsolete. And no, the AI doesn't follow at all player builds. FD just went the cheap way and assumed everyone would fall for the juice grind and the rest wouldn't matter anyway.