[C&P] 1 extreme.. to another

[William H. Bonney]

since 3 dropped i've been bouncing around re-engineering my modules and have found it enjoyable (although somewhat lacklustre). i'm also currently 3,000 hours in and it's the only game i have time for. I've gone and got myself some of the new weapons, both guardian and human and figured i'd go and 'get gud' with them. now, whilst my own personal opinion for the terminology of 'get gud' is simply a translation on "practice makes perfect".
yet i feel the new Crime & Punishment system doesn't allow that, i got a bounty for friendly fire whilst fighting in a high Resource Extraction Site, this 400Cr bounty means i cannot cash in my 1.2 million in claimable bounties, i cannot do anything in the system due to anonymity and am forced to go clear a measly 400Cr bounty at some intersteller something or something.

it's ludicrous that i can be allied and wanted for friendly fire, i didn't kill any-one who i didn't want killed, my enemy boosted out of the way and my missile hit another ship who i wasn't targeting, they were in fact shooting at my target's wingman and i didn't even know they were there till my target (a clipper) boosted out of the way due to reasonably close proximity.

For the first time in all my Elite Dangerous playing time of over 3,000 hours, i've quit playing tonight because of anger towards what i'd consider bad game mechanics. Whilst i agreed that the old Crime and Punishment system needed an overhaul, it very much feel's over complicated and like it's gone from one extreme, to another.

why can't the intersteller people be in all stations? or simply make the legal authority of any station an intersteller?

i'd understand this logic if i'd gone on a murder spree, but i hadn't, all this has done in laymen's terms is stopped me from playing! even if i hadn't quit playing tonight, i'd have spent possibly 15-30 minutes looking for a place to pay of my bounty so i could then spend another 15-40 minutes going back to the system to claim my bounties. then have quit the game because it's now early hours in the morning. it's only a possible hour play time granted, but i've been forced to stop doing what i've wanted with no way out except to waste precious playtime to allow me to get back to what i wanted to do in the first place (which is work the background story to benefit a player faction i'm involved with).

Apologies for the wall of text and this isn't meant as any sort of rage-quit-of-the-game, but i feel the new Crime & Punishment should be relabelled simply "Punishment regardless".

 

[GODofDUTY83]

Low sec systems are everywhere.
Whats the problem again ?

 

[William H. Bonney]

Low sec systems are everywhere.

Congrats on observational skills... but i'm unclear of your meaning?

 

[GODofDUTY83]

Congrats on observational skills... but i'm unclear of your meaning?

IFCs are therefore, everywhere.
I agree. Having to use them for measly fines is a pain, but they are everywhere.

 

[Adhock]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot of combat pilots make.

Tunnel vision.

You were so focused on your target you failed to notice the indicators he was going to boost.

While there are elements of Trigger Discipline issues, it's a symptom of your tunnel vision so I won't raze on you for that.

The levels of crimes generally commited are as follows:

Reckless Weapons fire- Fine. Occurs when you've actually noticed your allies flying into your line of fire and your finger is off the trigger button. Due to the amount of outgoing fire stopping, this tends to get a graze. If the damage doesn't break a certain threshold you'll get a warning and no problems. However if you're a hair too late and break the fairly low threshold, you'll gain a Reckless Weapon's discharge Fine. You can pay that off at the station without issue.

Generally the thermal weapons and the MC's will result in this. If the System Authority catches the edge of a Flak Cannon they may hit you with this too. Beam weapons however may be too great.

Assault- Bounty. This is the most common one I see. A single hit from the more powerful weapons which are generally META is usually enough to result in a powerful enough alpha attack that you will easily break the medium threshold and gain an Assault Bounty. This will provoke System Authority into attacking you. Pretty much every weapon will result in this. Failure to observe trigger discipline with the earlier mentioned weapons will result in a more sustained burst which will trigger Assault Tier bounties.

Murder- Bounty. Self explanatory.

Observing Trigger discipline means resisting the urge to 'spray and pray' which is where you just hold down the trigger until the weapon runs dry and firing needlessly, such as not observing a subtle shift in the target's orientation that indicates a sudden evasive maneuver that will cause you to miss. It's the second one that got you. And that's something you can only learn through practice, as you said.

Tunnel Vision is where you lock visually on your target to the exclusion of everything else. Even to the point where you just see the target and not paying attention to what it's actually doing.

The IC contacts are, lorewise, shady individuals who accomplice their goals through... not exactly legal means. Bypassing secure systems, bribing officials, potentially covert assassinations. All to deliver their services to those who ask. As these sort of things are frowned upon legally, they tend to end up in Low Sec space since there, they can more easily and openly ply their trade where the Law turns a blind eye. In Hi Sec where the Law is meant to be ruthless and through, you wouldn't want to be openly advertising your ability to scrub identities clean for the right price would you? Think of all those criminals who would go free...

 

[Demascus]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot ..

Really? Because I have received assault bounties for: Npc SLF pilot friendly fire (not my fault) and firing on a SLF as it was being launched from wanted ship (bug). Rookie tunnel vision mistakes right there.... yep

 

[Ploxitus]

Agree completely with OP, apart from the later lengthy post missing the point completely, the 'punishment' regardless of the reason is not proportionate.

When a NPC flies directly in front of you during combat you should not have to drop all and go find someone to pay 400cr to, especially when we are dealing in millions of CRs.
It is just tedious, yawn.

Elite Dangerous, really??? maybe it should be Elite be a little more careful please.

P.

 

[Vardaugas]

Yeah, they should scale the fines and bounties with the accumulated ranks of the offending pilot. That may create more meaningful values and don't punish rookies disproportionally.

 

[the source 0179]

since 3 dropped i've been bouncing around re-engineering my modules and have found it enjoyable (although somewhat lacklustre). i'm also currently 3,000 hours in and it's the only game i have time for. I've gone and got myself some of the new weapons, both guardian and human and figured i'd go and 'get gud' with them. now, whilst my own personal opinion for the terminology of 'get gud' is simply a translation on "practice makes perfect".
yet i feel the new Crime & Punishment system doesn't allow that, i got a bounty for friendly fire whilst fighting in a high Resource Extraction Site, this 400Cr bounty means i cannot cash in my 1.2 million in claimable bounties, i cannot do anything in the system due to anonymity and am forced to go clear a measly 400Cr bounty at some intersteller something or something.

it's ludicrous that i can be allied and wanted for friendly fire, i didn't kill any-one who i didn't want killed, my enemy boosted out of the way and my missile hit another ship who i wasn't targeting, they were in fact shooting at my target's wingman and i didn't even know they were there till my target (a clipper) boosted out of the way due to reasonably close proximity.

For the first time in all my Elite Dangerous playing time of over 3,000 hours, i've quit playing tonight because of anger towards what i'd consider bad game mechanics. Whilst i agreed that the old Crime and Punishment system needed an overhaul, it very much feel's over complicated and like it's gone from one extreme, to another.

why can't the intersteller people be in all stations? or simply make the legal authority of any station an intersteller?

i'd understand this logic if i'd gone on a murder spree, but i hadn't, all this has done in laymen's terms is stopped me from playing! even if i hadn't quit playing tonight, i'd have spent possibly 15-30 minutes looking for a place to pay of my bounty so i could then spend another 15-40 minutes going back to the system to claim my bounties. then have quit the game because it's now early hours in the morning. it's only a possible hour play time granted, but i've been forced to stop doing what i've wanted with no way out except to waste precious playtime to allow me to get back to what i wanted to do in the first place (which is work the background story to benefit a player faction i'm involved with).

Apologies for the wall of text and this isn't meant as any sort of rage-quit-of-the-game, but i feel the new Crime & Punishment should be relabelled simply "Punishment regardless".

I agree with you. This cnp doesn't affect career a holes as much as it affects the average joe.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot of combat pilots make.

Tunnel vision.

You were so focused on your target you failed to notice the indicators he was going to boost.

While there are elements of Trigger Discipline issues, it's a symptom of your tunnel vision so I won't raze on you for that.

The levels of crimes generally commited are as follows:

Reckless Weapons fire- Fine. Occurs when you've actually noticed your allies flying into your line of fire and your finger is off the trigger button. Due to the amount of outgoing fire stopping, this tends to get a graze. If the damage doesn't break a certain threshold you'll get a warning and no problems. However if you're a hair too late and break the fairly low threshold, you'll gain a Reckless Weapon's discharge Fine. You can pay that off at the station without issue.

Generally the thermal weapons and the MC's will result in this. If the System Authority catches the edge of a Flak Cannon they may hit you with this too. Beam weapons however may be too great.

Assault- Bounty. This is the most common one I see. A single hit from the more powerful weapons which are generally META is usually enough to result in a powerful enough alpha attack that you will easily break the medium threshold and gain an Assault Bounty. This will provoke System Authority into attacking you. Pretty much every weapon will result in this. Failure to observe trigger discipline with the earlier mentioned weapons will result in a more sustained burst which will trigger Assault Tier bounties.

Murder- Bounty. Self explanatory.

Observing Trigger discipline means resisting the urge to 'spray and pray' which is where you just hold down the trigger until the weapon runs dry and firing needlessly, such as not observing a subtle shift in the target's orientation that indicates a sudden evasive maneuver that will cause you to miss. It's the second one that got you. And that's something you can only learn through practice, as you said.

Tunnel Vision is where you lock visually on your target to the exclusion of everything else. Even to the point where you just see the target and not paying attention to what it's actually doing.

The IC contacts are, lorewise, shady individuals who accomplice their goals through... not exactly legal means. Bypassing secure systems, bribing officials, potentially covert assassinations. All to deliver their services to those who ask. As these sort of things are frowned upon legally, they tend to end up in Low Sec space since there, they can more easily and openly ply their trade where the Law turns a blind eye. In Hi Sec where the Law is meant to be ruthless and through, you wouldn't want to be openly advertising your ability to scrub identities clean for the right price would you? Think of all those criminals who would go free...

Excellent post +1

 

[the source 0179]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot of combat pilots make.

Tunnel vision.

You were so focused on your target you failed to notice the indicators he was going to boost.

While there are elements of Trigger Discipline issues, it's a symptom of your tunnel vision so I won't raze on you for that.

The levels of crimes generally commited are as follows:

Reckless Weapons fire- Fine. Occurs when you've actually noticed your allies flying into your line of fire and your finger is off the trigger button. Due to the amount of outgoing fire stopping, this tends to get a graze. If the damage doesn't break a certain threshold you'll get a warning and no problems. However if you're a hair too late and break the fairly low threshold, you'll gain a Reckless Weapon's discharge Fine. You can pay that off at the station without issue.

Generally the thermal weapons and the MC's will result in this. If the System Authority catches the edge of a Flak Cannon they may hit you with this too. Beam weapons however may be too great.

Assault- Bounty. This is the most common one I see. A single hit from the more powerful weapons which are generally META is usually enough to result in a powerful enough alpha attack that you will easily break the medium threshold and gain an Assault Bounty. This will provoke System Authority into attacking you. Pretty much every weapon will result in this. Failure to observe trigger discipline with the earlier mentioned weapons will result in a more sustained burst which will trigger Assault Tier bounties.

Murder- Bounty. Self explanatory.

Observing Trigger discipline means resisting the urge to 'spray and pray' which is where you just hold down the trigger until the weapon runs dry and firing needlessly, such as not observing a subtle shift in the target's orientation that indicates a sudden evasive maneuver that will cause you to miss. It's the second one that got you. And that's something you can only learn through practice, as you said.

Tunnel Vision is where you lock visually on your target to the exclusion of everything else. Even to the point where you just see the target and not paying attention to what it's actually doing.

The IC contacts are, lorewise, shady individuals who accomplice their goals through... not exactly legal means. Bypassing secure systems, bribing officials, potentially covert assassinations. All to deliver their services to those who ask. As these sort of things are frowned upon legally, they tend to end up in Low Sec space since there, they can more easily and openly ply their trade where the Law turns a blind eye. In Hi Sec where the Law is meant to be ruthless and through, you wouldn't want to be openly advertising your ability to scrub identities clean for the right price would you? Think of all those criminals who would go free...

The thing is no matter how you try to word it it is not a perfect system at the moment. You say trigger discipline? Well that doesnt work for all things for example a npc flying a fighter for you or turrets that aren't controlled directly by you and once you set them on their target that is what they go for. Whether they miss fire or another npc flys infront of their shots isn't controlled by you directly so in those times it shouldn't count. You could also say the same if you hop into multicrew and the pilot kills a npc but you didn't fire at them.or vice versa your the pilot that didnt fire but a multi crew member did. Or imagine that you have beam lasers on turrets and another npc flys through the beam it is also not your fault and have no control over it.

I'll also bring up the other thing that has happened to many and people don't like and thats tagging a npc somehow whether accident or turrets etc and then another npc kills the one that got tagged again you didn't kill them someone else did. These are all things that you dont have direct control over and yet you still get a fine, bounty, noriety. What ever the instance.
Same thing as pulling the trigger for a bunch of missiles once they have left your ship you don't have control of them if a ship flys infront of them once they are on their way. Again out of your control.

There are many things that FD didn't think of or couldn't figure out how to program into the code or just simply didn't care. But all in all just coming out with the usual trigger discipline or git gud isnt constructive or helpful. Maybe this cnp works for you. But it doesn't work for everyone.

 

[Marra Morgan]

beam lasers on turrets

It's always beam lasers on turrets, isn't it?

 

[Kyennamo]

The thing is no matter how you try to word it it is not a perfect system at the moment. You say trigger discipline? Well that doesnt work for all things for example a npc flying a fighter for you or turrets that aren't controlled directly by you and once you set them on their target that is what they go for. Whether they miss fire or another npc flys infront of their shots isn't controlled by you directly so in those times it shouldn't count. You could also say the same if you hop into multicrew and the pilot kills a npc but you didn't fire at them.or vice versa your the pilot that didnt fire but a multi crew member did. Or imagine that you have beam lasers on turrets and another npc flys through the beam it is also not your fault and have no control over it.

I'll also bring up the other thing that has happened to many and people don't like and thats tagging a npc somehow whether accident or turrets etc and then another npc kills the one that got tagged again you didn't kill them someone else did. These are all things that you dont have direct control over and yet you still get a fine, bounty, noriety. What ever the instance.
Same thing as pulling the trigger for a bunch of missiles once they have left your ship you don't have control of them if a ship flys infront of them once they are on their way. Again out of your control.

There are many things that FD didn't think of or couldn't figure out how to program into the code or just simply didn't care. But all in all just coming out with the usual trigger discipline or git gud isnt constructive or helpful. Maybe this cnp works for you. But it doesn't work for everyone.

THIS.

ED is a game. I think too many "dedicated fans" tend to forget that. And as games go.....ED has some pretty half (donkey'd) systems and mechanics. It is definitely NOT perfect and has TONS of room for improvement. Unfortunately, when someone brings up a valid point the discussion gets saturated with things like "git gud and practice trigger control". No one wanta to admit their preciois game is all (fornicated) up

 

[Troy_McClure]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot of combat pilots make.

Tunnel vision.

You were so focused on your target you failed to notice the indicators he was going to boost.

While there are elements of Trigger Discipline issues, it's a symptom of your tunnel vision so I won't raze on you for that.

The levels of crimes generally commited are as follows:

Reckless Weapons fire- Fine. Occurs when you've actually noticed your allies flying into your line of fire and your finger is off the trigger button. Due to the amount of outgoing fire stopping, this tends to get a graze. If the damage doesn't break a certain threshold you'll get a warning and no problems. However if you're a hair too late and break the fairly low threshold, you'll gain a Reckless Weapon's discharge Fine. You can pay that off at the station without issue.

Generally the thermal weapons and the MC's will result in this. If the System Authority catches the edge of a Flak Cannon they may hit you with this too. Beam weapons however may be too great.

Assault- Bounty. This is the most common one I see. A single hit from the more powerful weapons which are generally META is usually enough to result in a powerful enough alpha attack that you will easily break the medium threshold and gain an Assault Bounty. This will provoke System Authority into attacking you. Pretty much every weapon will result in this. Failure to observe trigger discipline with the earlier mentioned weapons will result in a more sustained burst which will trigger Assault Tier bounties.

Murder- Bounty. Self explanatory.

Observing Trigger discipline means resisting the urge to 'spray and pray' which is where you just hold down the trigger until the weapon runs dry and firing needlessly, such as not observing a subtle shift in the target's orientation that indicates a sudden evasive maneuver that will cause you to miss. It's the second one that got you. And that's something you can only learn through practice, as you said.

Tunnel Vision is where you lock visually on your target to the exclusion of everything else. Even to the point where you just see the target and not paying attention to what it's actually doing.

The IC contacts are, lorewise, shady individuals who accomplice their goals through... not exactly legal means. Bypassing secure systems, bribing officials, potentially covert assassinations. All to deliver their services to those who ask. As these sort of things are frowned upon legally, they tend to end up in Low Sec space since there, they can more easily and openly ply their trade where the Law turns a blind eye. In Hi Sec where the Law is meant to be ruthless and through, you wouldn't want to be openly advertising your ability to scrub identities clean for the right price would you? Think of all those criminals who would go free...

This is a post stating combat practices to aspire to - I'll rep you for that - having said that, I'd like to actually see you in an entire session, since you have implied that you are beyond reproach with your sanctimonious tone! Selective memory, I suspect!

In fact, this reminds me of a 'Sleutelbos' post! A harsh indictment, indeed! [big grin]

 

[ViperSixAlpha]

Murder no. You did not.

Assault Bounty, yes. You achieved that.

You made one of the two rookie mistakes that I see a lot of combat pilots make.

Tunnel vision.

You were so focused on your target you failed to notice the indicators he was going to boost.

While there are elements of Trigger Discipline issues, it's a symptom of your tunnel vision so I won't raze on you for that.

The levels of crimes generally commited are as follows:

Reckless Weapons fire- Fine. Occurs when you've actually noticed your allies flying into your line of fire and your finger is off the trigger button. Due to the amount of outgoing fire stopping, this tends to get a graze. If the damage doesn't break a certain threshold you'll get a warning and no problems. However if you're a hair too late and break the fairly low threshold, you'll gain a Reckless Weapon's discharge Fine. You can pay that off at the station without issue.

Generally the thermal weapons and the MC's will result in this. If the System Authority catches the edge of a Flak Cannon they may hit you with this too. Beam weapons however may be too great.

Assault- Bounty. This is the most common one I see. A single hit from the more powerful weapons which are generally META is usually enough to result in a powerful enough alpha attack that you will easily break the medium threshold and gain an Assault Bounty. This will provoke System Authority into attacking you. Pretty much every weapon will result in this. Failure to observe trigger discipline with the earlier mentioned weapons will result in a more sustained burst which will trigger Assault Tier bounties.

Murder- Bounty. Self explanatory.

Observing Trigger discipline means resisting the urge to 'spray and pray' which is where you just hold down the trigger until the weapon runs dry and firing needlessly, such as not observing a subtle shift in the target's orientation that indicates a sudden evasive maneuver that will cause you to miss. It's the second one that got you. And that's something you can only learn through practice, as you said.

Tunnel Vision is where you lock visually on your target to the exclusion of everything else. Even to the point where you just see the target and not paying attention to what it's actually doing.

The IC contacts are, lorewise, shady individuals who accomplice their goals through... not exactly legal means. Bypassing secure systems, bribing officials, potentially covert assassinations. All to deliver their services to those who ask. As these sort of things are frowned upon legally, they tend to end up in Low Sec space since there, they can more easily and openly ply their trade where the Law turns a blind eye. In Hi Sec where the Law is meant to be ruthless and through, you wouldn't want to be openly advertising your ability to scrub identities clean for the right price would you? Think of all those criminals who would go free...

What a load of . It's always been funny to me how some people will hop on their high horses and talk down to others on this forum while claiming they're some kind of uber skilled combat pilot. This game is a Jack of a few trades and master of none. It's stregth is in its flexibility to offer multiple activities all under the same "roof". Unless you were there and know the person involved you have no right to criticize or attempt to demoralize them. The "combat" in Elite is no high bar, just an excuse to get your pew-pew on for a bit.

This game is supposed to be under development right? As the community using it, we have an obligation to share our experiences and criticisms with the team working on this project to help it's progress. Many people, including myself, feel the new punishment system has gone a little overboard and needs attention. One of the most glaring current issues is the hassle involved with paying trivial fines gained from minor offenses. Regardless of how common the current method of handling this problem is to find, the fact that we now need to endure yet more time consuming busy work just to get back to doing what we want is a problem.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Assault is my crime of choice.

I have a penchant for really big, really potent Plasma weapons.

NPC's, on the other hand, have this spectacular maneuvering ability that allows them to come to a full stop for a fraction of a second - usually the fraction of a second when targeting reticles are aligned and plasma volleys delivered, that causes them to sail past them into the void, or into an untargeted shim some distance away, oblivious to the firefight going on nearby.

Always past the warning threshold, but.. never enough of an issue to warrant posting about it.

 

[William H. Bonney]

Regardless of whether i need to 'get gud' or practice some trigger control, a 400Cr bounty is shockingly bad for my game time and my assumption is, it's probably not ideal for others.
If i destroyed the ship with friendly fire, i'd have no complaint to make, a bounty for murder justifies what happened, regardless of accidental or not. Friendly fire should in my opinion result in a fine for "misconduct in battle" or something along them lines. these Fines could mature into Bounties after a couple of weeks or something if left unpaid.

 

[Vardaugas]

You already get a 300cr fine for reckless weapons discharge, which only elevates into a bounty when you do too much damage and/or you are not very well liked by the controlling faction.

Got more than one fine like that from railgun clips and missile hits. I am also sure I sprayed a security Anaconda with my multicannons more than once without them even mentioning it. I really have to go out of my way to receive a bounty for assault, like when I accidentally attacked a clean Python, being tired and absent minded. Also, when I got the bounty, I wasn't instantly prioritized by security. While they all went red and some attacked, not all did. They changed that behavior with 3.0.

 

[smiths121]

Hey if people spent less time debating on the forums, they could jump get rid of bounty, in about the same time as leaving the system was for in 2.4. I know, I am doing it a lot at the moment.

Cheers
Simon

 

[Alex Brentnall]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/401809-Crime-Update-Rules-and-Feedback

Friendly Fire and Reckless Weapons Discharge

• The tolerance for friendly fire has been increased - you can deal more damage before you gain the assault crime.
• A new crime is added "Reckless weapons discharge", which triggers at the old friendly fire threshold, and is only a fine.

These changes reflect the potential increased consequence for a bounty, allowing more leeway before one is issued.

So it's better than it was. A small amount of fire is only a fine and can be paid off locally, before it was instant bounty. You must have really done serious damage to your ally to get the bounty hit, as you say, missiles.. Feels like a combination of bad factors of high damage weapons, unfortunate situation. Should be a rare occurrence that you can fix by flying maybe 10-20ly to a low sec system to pay off, perhaps 8 minutes effort for something that happens in maybe 10/20/30/40 hours continuous combat?

Overall boiling it down this feels like a mountain over a molehill.
If it's rare then the fix isn't a massive drain, deal with it and move on. If it's not rare and happens way too often then consider changing from high damage weapons. Maybe use smart rounds and healing lasers on all but one low damage weapon (to aggro the enemy you want).


Also interstellar factors are criminals using bribes and whatever to local corrupt law enforcement. They can't operate in medium and high security systems because there is much less corrupt law enforcement there checking that bounties were really paid off instead of taking the persons word for it. In terms of gameplay it also makes sense as it's there to promote crime in these systems more often and deter crime in the other systems.