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C&P...Does it work?
- Thread starter Hooplah
- Start date
Oh, thanks. I wasn't aware of this indubitable scientific criterion to prove or disprove general trends. Thank you, I feel a bit smarter now that I chatted with you.
I think you vastly overestimate your own progress.
I agree with that as a principle, but I think we disagree on whether it's actually possible in the context of an Elite-like multiplayer game.
Penalties which take effect only on death aren't a deterrent to someone flying an invincible ship. Removal of invincible shield engineering will be complained about by far more people than it makes happy.
Penalties which affect you just for having a bounty are as we've seen more of an inconvenience for the occasional criminal - who doesn't have the knowledge of what's happening and the experience of dealing with it - than for the dedicated one who can plan around it. And there are a lot of jurisdictions.
Penalties severe enough to make a dedicated player actually take notice - especially with how easy money earning and engineering both are nowadays if you optimise them - will just make "trick people into triggering them to deter them from playing" the new sport. (Making earnings and engineering harder to get, of course, is harder on the people being shot down than the people doing the shooting, so that doesn't help either.)
I think the current balance of the C&P system *as a C&P system* is pretty good - there are consequences for criminal behaviour, there are far fewer loopholes than there used to be to get out of it, it hits habitual criminals much more strongly than occasional ones, and you have to pay some non-trivial costs if you need to clear your name. But it's not so harsh - especially versus occasional criminals - that it's easy to weaponise. That's about the best that can be expected.
You can take it as a personal attack if you want.
To me it was a suggestion to try playing the game in a different way, perhaps a more RP focused way.
It seems to me that the way you are currently playing ED is causing you some distress.
But that's fine, if you like being your own victim and griefing yourself everytime you log on who am I to question your motives.
Doing something I don't enjoy seems weird to me.
This is a very considerate response, and yes, I agree that it's very hard to make a non-exploitable system of penalties.
Perhaps you're right, and as things stand with Elite this is the best we can have. But I'm not really sure that "best" here means "it actually has an effect on how people interact with each other in-game". I think it's more like "it is a relatively non-exploitable system that gives players the feeling that something happens to criminals, while nothing much really does happen to them".
Very much this.
Including making some high risk/reward missions available in anarchy systems based on notoriety.
Personally, I reckon the biggest problem with C&P is that it attempts to be a "one size fits all" solution.
The "Wild West" had the same laws as New York and Boston, back in the day, but things were very different.
The system ED has doesn't allow/force players to adopt an appropriate level of lawfulness according to their environment.
Seems like it should be fairly straightforward to set up some kind of "lawfulness factor" based on a system's government/state/location/economy and then scale the effectiveness of C&P accordingly.
As it is, it doesn't matter if you're in a hi-sec/hi-tech system or an anarchy. You're still just as likely to get ganked.
A system that fixed this would go a long way to sorting out C&P, make players much happier and create a more interesting and exciting environment.
Imagine if, as a pirate, you could (or really, you had to) plan your attacks around knowledge of ATR's locations. In other words, imagine if they didn't just spawn when needed, but rather they had to travel from where they were patrolling to where you made your attack.
Also, imagine if there were areas within a system where supercruise sensors were less effective (coronal mass ejections or whatever). Imagine you could locate these areas and use them to hide inside a system.
Imagine if being a pirate involved this sort of cunning cat-and-mouse gameplay rather than what we have now, where you commit a crime and the cops spawn out of nowhere.
100% this and yet people still claim out of their imagination that it was meant to counter griefing.
People can watch stream vod
or
read this :
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You can make Sandro say whatever you want because he's intentionally so vague. "...there's lots of criminal activities in Elite...". What counts as "criminal activity"? Is he talking about piracy or about exploding sidewinders in Eravate?
"we like criminals....but we want to make sure there's appropriate consequences for those actions". What on earth does this mean? In a game, either a consequence is positive -- and therefore a prize or bonus -- or negative, and therefore a penalty or punishment. He's literally saying: "there will be penalties, but we're not penalizing criminals".
What he's saying there (and elsewhere), translated from the PC-jargon they use is: "we are trying to punish griefing, but we can't really say it because otherwise we'll hurt the griefer's feelings".
ATR put a cap on killing in a system, regardless if they are an NPC or players. It is no protection at all from 'griefers' because its a retroactive punishment.
It means its perfectly OK to blow people up, but maybe not constantly in the starter system hence ATF showing up if you hang around. Griefers deterred, actual PVP largely unaffected.
They already did exactly what you apparently want them to do. You just don't like the way they said it all those months ago.
Depends on your personal definition of griefing, they also accumulate notoriety and a bounty which can't be exploited away anymore.
Could you please always hang around my replies throughout the forum, so that you could always correct my gross misunderstandings and enlighten me with your Clearly Correct interpretation of reality? I'd love that.
From my BGS perspective, it makes no difference. When my ship gets too hot, I sell it and lay low for a bit making money to buy another.
Then watch the vod again and pay attention to the first thing Sandro is saying and has been said many many many many times because he is explaining the reason of the new C&P.
Hence :
What he is saying is crystal clear. I really hope this reality check does not hurt anyone's feelings.
Since you've asked so nicely I think I will.
Seems wasteful, why not equip and engineer a specific naughty ship and just use it whenever you feel like being a badspaceman.
I'm not worrying much about star-system-level notoriety anymore, because now I have this to give me galaxy-wide notoriety:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...unleash-sentient-AI-(12-15-3304-player-event)
The proof that present C&P doesn’t work stays in Eravate. There is a player’s Cutter with over 2 billion bounty on it. I don’t know how, neither why, nor when such a bounty has been acquired, but it looks out of place. This has to be a lot of Sidewinders I presume.
Personally I don’t care how other people are playing the game, but I do care about the game, the perception of the game. If one player can survive constantly killing newbies in starting systems, this player either is kicking out of the game the new players or pushing them to solo permanently. The question bothering me is: does this player’s action benefit the game and if not, where are the FD?
Long time ago I’ve been playing L2 and I had a lot of PvP in this game, but C&P system was designed in such a way, that I was able to leave my character in the middle of nowhere and go AFK without fear I could been killed for no reason. End of story. Do you know from where comes the difference? L2 was a subscription game and game developers were interested in people to play their game, while FD apparently doesn’t give a sh… if the player are playing their game or not since four years after release the newbies are killed for fun.
Personally I don’t care how other people are playing the game, but I do care about the game, the perception of the game. If one player can survive constantly killing newbies in starting systems, this player either is kicking out of the game the new players or pushing them to solo permanently. The question bothering me is: does this player’s action benefit the game and if not, where are the FD?
Long time ago I’ve been playing L2 and I had a lot of PvP in this game, but C&P system was designed in such a way, that I was able to leave my character in the middle of nowhere and go AFK without fear I could been killed for no reason. End of story. Do you know from where comes the difference? L2 was a subscription game and game developers were interested in people to play their game, while FD apparently doesn’t give a sh… if the player are playing their game or not since four years after release the newbies are killed for fun.