Carnivore AI / Ecosystem Balance

[Jpete]

The carnivore AI in the game is so frustrating. I’m sure a lot of you will relate to this. I have a tyrannosaurus in an enclosure with several brachiosaurus and about ten gallimimus. It’s a pretty good balance in the ecosystem I created in my opinion. The paddock is entertaining for me to watch.

Now enters the problem. T-Rex kills the entire flock of gallimimus indiscriminately even when not hungry. The entire flock was killed within minutes.

I feel like there should be some sort of formula involved where predators would hunt when they are hungry, not just kill anything they can as often as they can.

However if the predator breaks out of containment then I feel it is all fair game. So the formula would look something like:

If in containment -> not hungry -> comfort level is fine -> predator won’t kill.

If in containment -> not hungry -> comfort level low -> rampage and kill everything until comfort levels balance out.

If in containment -> hungry -> predator will hunt, kill, and eat whatever it wants to eat.

If out of containment -> rampage -> kill anything in sight, preferring humans first.

Basically what I’m getting at is having the predators hunt the flocks when they are hungry as any other predator would do in the wild. Except the indo raptor. He’s an and wants to kill everything in sight and he should remain that way.

What does the rest of the community think?

 

[Flash525]

This isn't a new suggestion by any means - it's been mentioned before, and I'm sure it will do again. I do however agree with you, although you'd have to find a clear distinction between why a carnivore would choose a feeder over live food; what would force a Rex to eat a Goat, or from the feeder, rather than attempting to take on (and out) a Triceratops?

There's also a good chance this topic of yours will end up closed and it'll be requested you use the wishlist thread. It's highlighted at the top already...

 

[MarcWP]

The carnivore AI in the game is so frustrating. I’m sure a lot of you will relate to this. I have a tyrannosaurus in an enclosure with several brachiosaurus and about ten gallimimus. It’s a pretty good balance in the ecosystem I created in my opinion. The paddock is entertaining for me to watch.

Now enters the problem. T-Rex kills the entire flock of gallimimus indiscriminately even when not hungry. The entire flock was killed within minutes.

First off, it's pretty ignorant to believe a flock of Gallimimus could live alongside a T-Rex.

Second of all, predators kill over territory. Not only because of hunger. A T-Rex would probably kill everything in it's paddock, if it wasn't outmatched by size. So I don't really see the issue here...

 

[Winterwalker]

First off, it's pretty ignorant to believe a flock of Gallimimus could live alongside a T-Rex.

Second of all, predators kill over territory. Not only because of hunger. A T-Rex would probably kill everything in it's paddock, if it wasn't outmatched by size. So I don't really see the issue here...

Agree really, T-Rex is a MASSIVE predator. Try smaller animals, Metriacanthosaurus etc. instead?

 

[Jpete]

It doesn’t matter if it’s the T-Rex. The dilophosaurus would do the exact same thing. I wouldn’t consider it to be a “massive predator” by any means. The AI is frustrating.

 

[Str8 Kong]

It doesn’t matter if it’s the T-Rex. The dilophosaurus would do the exact same thing. I wouldn’t consider it to be a “massive predator” by any means. The AI is frustrating.

Yeah, this isn’t an issue related to the specific predator but rather over-aggressive carnivores. You can’t even keep herbivores and carnivores on a free-roam Isla Nublar, the carnivores will run from across the Island in a bee-line to any live herbivore regardless of hunger level. Makes no sense.

 

[MarcWP]

It doesn’t matter if it’s the T-Rex. The dilophosaurus would do the exact same thing. I wouldn’t consider it to be a “massive predator” by any means. The AI is frustrating.

Yeah I believe a Dilophosaurus would also kill a herd of Gallimimus. Just not as fast as a T-Rex. Lol. But this is pretty normal carnivore behavior. I agree it's frustrating if you want to mix species in a pen, but that's the exact same reason you don't see it in a regular zoo either.

I have my Dilo's with Torosaurus, Brachs and Diplodocus. No problem. They know they are outmatched in size. But with Galli's it's a different story.

 

[elperdido]

agreed totally ...all the Carnivores acting like a Indominus Rex not like really Animals ,what the Idea from the first JP Movies, without stupid Manhunting very incorrect bad looking pterosaurs.

And its sad ,thas we not can rebuild really looking Ecosystems ...for example a Chines Jurassic Territory , or a South America Cretazeous Territory with all Carnivores and Herbivores from this Formations thats all lived in giant Eco- Paddocks with many different Biomes (river...Jungle...Prarie) and all searching its best Biome for her and have own Territorys

 

[geezustpleezus]

Yeah it'd be better to have the carnivores only kill other dinosaurs and guests when their hunger reaches a certain level (or unless they're genetically modified to be super aggressive). Right now they're all psychopaths.

 

[MarcWP]

The playing zones are way too small for an actual ecosystem to work without intervention at all.

A regular male tiger has a territory of about 100 km. A T-Rex would probably double that at least. So it would roam and kill other animals within a range of 200 kilometers.

And there's plenty of evidence, of animals today acting like the dinosaurs in the game. Surplus killings are found regularly in wolf packs for example, where they kill everything in sight without eating the corpses. This is usually to stay sharp hunting wise or just mark territory.

So it's pretty bold to state, that they don't act like animals, when these things happen even today. Plus we have no idea how prehistoric animals made in a test tube, would act around any form of life...

 

[JohnMiller1132]

Yes. I do think all boil down to space availability. The game seems NOT to encourage large enclosure with a sophisticated territorial system in place.

Nonetheless, this is a game. It should conform to reality with adjustments that suit itself as a game. In my view, either give us a gigantic map to match reality OR put a sophisticated down-sized territorial system in place in a down-sized map. Either way, the ability to produce a harmonic ecosystem SHOULD NEVER be compromised.

This is part of the Jurassic lore, right? Especially in TLW and JP3 where a sophisticated ecosystem had been established. We as fans would dream to see that!

As of now, my Isla Sorna design has a large enclosure encompassing Trikes, Stegos, Raptors, Brachios, Mamenchisaurus, and a single Spino. The only problem is the Spino. As soon as she ran over to trike-Stego herds, I have to tranquilize it or rounds of battles will happen until she gets killed eventually after committing massacre.

What I strongly propose is:-

Providing the enclosure is wide enough (double/triple the size of typical enclosure), there must be a Territorial AI system in place. The Dinos (Herbivores and carnivores) must have a territory concept. They must know where they live and will defend that area/themselves at all cost.

To be specific,

- Large/small carnivore will attack anyone that enters its territory (Hungry or not. Just like now except its radius should be smaller and confined to a single place)
- Armored herbivores will do the same but instead of going into battle mode, herds of them should confront the intruders and possibly scare them off providing their number is huge enough. Alternatively, they can go into 1 on 1 battle mode but the carnivore should really retreat after going through rounds of battles instead of fighting to death.
- Between the carnivores of all sizes, the above point should also apply. Instead of fighting non-stop to death, they should retreat to a different location provided there is.
- For medium/small herbivores, they should move in herds with a territorial concept. They should not wander too far off their herds and they will relocate/evade to a different territory whenever a fearsome intruder is on their way.
- In sum, in all cases, they should “remember” where they live and have a territory radius concept. [In that way, it solves the sauropods issue as well – where they wander off too far and don’t remember where to eat/where to have grassland/forest]​

As far as I concern, this is the better way to balance things out. If a simple tweak such as decreasing the frequency of killing is applied, please make sure the panicking system of the herbivores is still in place, otherwise, that would create a new problem, an even worse one, where they will both ignore each other and live together happily ever after.

 

[Dino droppings? Droppings?]

Yeah I believe a Dilophosaurus would also kill a herd of Gallimimus. Just not as fast as a T-Rex. Lol. But this is pretty normal carnivore behavior. I agree it's frustrating if you want to mix species in a pen, but that's the exact same reason you don't see it in a regular zoo either.

I have my Dilo's with Torosaurus, Brachs and Diplodocus. No problem. They know they are outmatched in size. But with Galli's it's a different story.

I can assue you that it is most certainly NOT normal carnivore behaviour.

 

[Dino droppings? Droppings?]

The playing zones are way too small for an actual ecosystem to work without intervention at all.

A regular male tiger has a territory of about 100 km. A T-Rex would probably double that at least. So it would roam and kill other animals within a range of 200 kilometers.

And there's plenty of evidence, of animals today acting like the dinosaurs in the game. Surplus killings are found regularly in wolf packs for example, where they kill everything in sight without eating the corpses. This is usually to stay sharp hunting wise or just mark territory.

So it's pretty bold to state, that they don't act like animals, when these things happen even today. Plus we have no idea how prehistoric animals made in a test tube, would act around any form of life...

Your wolf example is definitely the exception to the rule. Think about what you're saying from an evolutionary and ecological viewpoint. If a carnivore attacked and killed literally everything they came across, effectively removing their entire food source, how long do you think it would take for natural selection to favour an organism that only hunts when it is required? Not to mention, if all carnivores behaved in this manner, why aren't there ecosystem collapses everywhere if carnivores are just going around indiscriminantly killing everything they come across?

Moreover, saying we don't know how animals would act when made artifically is a pretty flimsy argument. Being made in a test tube infers that the geneticists have control over which traits these animals possess. It would make sense that the animals displayed in the park had undergone tests before they were released (unlike the indominous). Therefore, if they displayed any undesirable behviours such as killing rampages, that could easily be ameliorated.

 

[Professor Genki]

First off, it's pretty ignorant to believe a flock of Gallimimus could live alongside a T-Rex.

Second of all, predators kill over territory. Not only because of hunger. A T-Rex would probably kill everything in it's paddock, if it wasn't outmatched by size. So I don't really see the issue here...

Yes, but usually with other predators, not their prey. You don't see a lion going on a rampage slaughtering every living animal in it's territory. It's a huge issue with this game.

 

[MarcWP]

Yes. I do think all boil down to space availability. The game seems NOT to encourage large enclosure with a sophisticated territorial system in place.

Nonetheless, this is a game. It should conform to reality with adjustments that suit itself as a game. In my view, either give us a gigantic map to match reality OR put a sophisticated down-sized territorial system in place in a down-sized map. Either way, the ability to produce a harmonic ecosystem SHOULD NEVER be compromised.

This is part of the Jurassic lore, right? Especially in TLW and JP3 where a sophisticated ecosystem had been established. We as fans would dream to see that!

As of now, my Isla Sorna design has a large enclosure encompassing Trikes, Stegos, Raptors, Brachios, Mamenchisaurus, and a single Spino. The only problem is the Spino. As soon as she ran over to trike-Stego herds, I have to tranquilize it or rounds of battles will happen until she gets killed eventually after committing massacre.

What I strongly propose is:-

Providing the enclosure is wide enough (double/triple the size of typical enclosure), there must be a Territorial AI system in place. The Dinos (Herbivores and carnivores) must have a territory concept. They must know where they live and will defend that area/themselves at all cost.

To be specific,

- Large/small carnivore will attack anyone that enters its territory (Hungry or not. Just like now except its radius should be smaller and confined to a single place)
- Armored herbivores will do the same but instead of going into battle mode, herds of them should confront the intruders and possibly scare them off providing their number is huge enough. Alternatively, they can go into 1 on 1 battle mode but the carnivore should really retreat after going through rounds of battles instead of fighting to death.
- Between the carnivores of all sizes, the above point should also apply. Instead of fighting non-stop to death, they should retreat to a different location provided there is.
- For medium/small herbivores, they should move in herds with a territorial concept. They should not wander too far off their herds and they will relocate/evade to a different territory whenever a fearsome intruder is on their way.
- In sum, in all cases, they should “remember” where they live and have a territory radius concept. [In that way, it solves the sauropods issue as well – where they wander off too far and don’t remember where to eat/where to have grassland/forest]​

As far as I concern, this is the better way to balance things out. If a simple tweak such as decreasing the frequency of killing is applied, please make sure the panicking system of the herbivores is still in place, otherwise, that would create a new problem, an even worse one, where they will both ignore each other and live together happily ever after.

I agree with all of this. Great post mate!

 

[MarcWP]

Your wolf example is definitely the exception to the rule. Think about what you're saying from an evolutionary and ecological viewpoint. If a carnivore attacked and killed literally everything they came across, effectively removing their entire food source, how long do you think it would take for natural selection to favour an organism that only hunts when it is required? Not to mention, if all carnivores behaved in this manner, why aren't there ecosystem collapses everywhere if carnivores are just going around indiscriminantly killing everything they come across?

How many animals do you think a predator encounters over a 100 km territory span? It's not like their prey lives side by side. Sometimes animals wander severel days to find pray... So yes they pretty much try to kill most of the animals they come across. You act like their prey doesn't have escape mechanisms. They escape most of the time (Which is the problem with the game. Herbivores can't defend themselves.). That doesn't mean the predators aren't trying to kill it. If this was the case, you could just walk in a tiger enclosure, if it was just fed. Wanna give that a try? LOL

 

[Dino droppings? Droppings?]

How many animals do you think a predator encounters over a 100 km territory span? It's not like their prey lives side by side. Sometimes animals wander severel days to find pray... So yes they pretty much try to kill most of the animals they come across. You act like their prey doesn't have escape mechanisms. They escape most of the time (Which is the problem with the game. Herbivores can't defend themselves.). That doesn't mean the predators aren't trying to kill it. If this was the case, you could just walk in a tiger enclosure, if it was just fed. Wanna give that a try? LOL

Ever watched footage of lions drinking at water sources alongside antelope and other prey animals?

There are very good reasons why predators don't try to kill everything they come across. Probably the most important is energy preservation. Catching and killing prey requires a large amount of energy. Therefore, by only attacking animals they intend to eat, they minisise their energy expenditure. Again, evolution would not favour indiscriminate killing. The type of killing you're talking about occurs in highly specific circumstances such as a fox breaking into a hen coop where the hens are unable to escape. That is generally not the case in the wild and therefore it really isn't worth discussing.

Moreover, your example of me entering a tigers enclosure makes the assumption that the tiger would attack me out of fun. But in reality it would most likely attack me out of defence. Animals are a LOT less active than we imagine. Fundamentally it comes down to energy conservation and energy consumption.

EDIT: you have also somewhat contradicted yourself. You used the example of a predator that in possession of a large home range and therefore required to walk for days before coming across a prey item. Well, surely when they attack an animal they would be attacking it out a hunger response and not simply because they want to kill it?

These are all highly specific examples and it's also important to rememeber that mammalian, reptile and avian carnivores (which evolved from non-avian dinosaurs) all possess vastly different metabolisms and therefore require different quanitities and frequencies of food.

 

[MarcWP]

Ever watched footage of lions drinking at water sources alongside antelope and other prey animals?

There are very good reasons why predators don't try to kill everything they come across. Probably the most important is energy preservation. Catching and killing prey requires a large amount of energy. Therefore, by only attacking animals they intend to eat, they minisise their energy expenditure. Again, evolution would not favour indiscriminate killing. The type of killing you're talking about occurs in highly specific circumstances such as a fox breaking into a hen coop where the hens are unable to escape. That is generally not the case in the wild and therefore it really isn't worth discussing.

Moreover, your example of me entering a tigers enclosure makes the assumption that the tiger would attack me out of fun. But in reality it would most likely attack me out of defence. Animals are a LOT less active than we imagine. Fundamentally it comes down to energy conservation and energy consumption.

EDIT: you have also somewhat contradicted yourself. You used the example of a predator that in possession of a large home range and therefore required to walk for days before coming across a prey item. Well, surely when they attack an animal they would be attacking it out a hunger response and not simply because they want to kill it?

These are all highly specific examples and it's also important to rememeber that mammalian, reptile and avian carnivores (which evolved from non-avian dinosaurs) all possess vastly different metabolisms and therefore require different quanitities and frequencies of food.

Yes they can drink together, but the overall mood around the animals change. They get pretty anxious. And when they have other needs, in this instance water, they will accommodate with that need first.

And I agree about the energy, because most prey are fast or have abilities to defend themselves. And yes we shouldn't be talking about the wild, when this is exactly like the henhouse you described. These are paddocks.

And I never said a tiger would kill you for fun. Animals act on instinct, but it could just as well be over territory than defence. Dinosaurs that are seeing each other for the first time, would probably act just like the tiger.

And several animals kill without being hungry. Wolfs kill elk without eating them. Lions kill hyenas without killing them. Orcas kill whales without eating them. Leopards kill sheep without eating them. Bears kill humans without eating them (usually because of cubs, but there's several incidents without them). Even house cats does this... My parents cat tries to kill every bird, mice etc in the garden, even though it was just inside eating. So it's not really uncommon. But what zoo have mixed species like that? If it was possible, I'm pretty sure normal zoos would also mix the animals, to save space and such... But they don't. Because it wouldn't work.

 

[TJDS10]

Yes they can drink together, but the overall mood around the animals change. They get pretty anxious. And when they have other needs, in this instance water, they will accommodate with that need first.

And several animals kill without being hungry. Wolfs kill elk without eating them. Lions kill hyenas without killing them. Orcas kill whales without eating them. Leopards kill sheep without eating them. Bears kill humans without eating them (usually because of cubs, but there's several incidents without them). Even house cats does this... My parents cat tries to kill every bird, mice etc in the garden, even though it was just inside eating. So it's not really uncommon. But what zoo have mixed species like that? If it was possible, I'm pretty sure normal zoos would also mix the animals, to save space and such... But they don't. Because it wouldn't work.

Going by that statement, the lions should then murder every herbivore around it as soon as it's finished drinking like the carnivores would in this game. But the footage that we have of lions drinking nearby herbivores usually don't support that idea.

Yes, some predatory animals kill when they're not hungry but not in the same scale as this game. In situations where they kill over sport or territorial purposes, it generally doesn't result in the predators leaving behind like 15 carcasses within just a few minutes. There's also the problem that herbivores often don't RUN away from carnivores. I had an Allosaurus just walk into a group of herbivores on Nublar and as the Allosaurus engages in a fight with a Stegosaurus, the herbivores nearby would often just ignore it completely instead of reacting to it.

 

[MarcWP]

Going by that statement, the lions should then murder every herbivore around it as soon as it's finished drinking like the carnivores would in this game. But the footage that we have of lions drinking nearby herbivores usually don't support that idea.

Yes, some predatory animals kill when they're not hungry but not in the same scale as this game. In situations where they kill over sport or territorial purposes, it generally doesn't result in the predators leaving behind like 15 carcasses within just a few minutes. There's also the problem that herbivores often don't RUN away from carnivores. I had an Allosaurus just walk into a group of herbivores on Nublar and as the Allosaurus engages in a fight with a Stegosaurus, the herbivores nearby would often just ignore it completely instead of reacting to it.

They usually don't kill the animals around, because the other animals are faster and requires lots of energy to get to. Pretty sure it would be a whole different story in a paddock.

The herbivores are exactly the problem. They don't do anything. They have no defence mechanism whatsoever.