The worst part is the last science mission has a Metriacanthosaurus acting way more chill. If you're unlucky, he'll pick maybe two fights in five minutes. If you're lucky, he'll be chill and not attack anything during that time. For comparison, in five minutes a T. Rex will kill around 20 Gallimimus even if there are goats and carnivore feeders available (I made 50 Gallis and released a T. Rex for achievement purposes). Less aggressive behavior is already in the game.
Carnivore AI / Ecosystem Balance
- Thread starter Jpete
- Start date
I take it you haven't tried maintaining an actual ecosystem with no paddocks yet? Well, same result, although perhaps not quite as fast. I let my herbivores roam free with less than a handful of carnivores, no paddocks or guests on Nublar and within minutes, my Allosaurus and Metriacanthosaurus left behind a mass grave. Until they patch up the AI on the carnivores and herbivores' end, maintaining a stable ecosystem just isn't a viable way to play in this game.
To be fair, that will never be a viable way to play the game because the animals can't breed and also they don't last very long.
The play area is way too small for an ecosystem to flourish in the first place. Like I stated earlier, a normal tiger can have a territory of up to 100 km. A T-Rex would have at least double. AT LEAST. So how would you expect other carnivores to thrive, when the Rex would kill and challenge every intruder in a 200 kilometer radius?
"I believe we have a fully functioning ecosystem in place. That was my plan, and now we have seen it come to fruition. You work well for me... with me. I thank you for that"
Dr. Kajal Dua.
It's funny really... It's short lived of course.
"Bioengineer dinosaurs that think, feel and react intelligently to the world around them"
Frontier Marketing Department
Not even remotely true, imo.
The Carnivores are relentless and will circumnavigate the entire map to ensure everything they can kill... is dead, with a higher priority than anything else they can do... like erm, hmm... IMO, it needs toning down. Wouldn't be so bad if they had a rest for a while to recoup energy etc, but they don't because that's not something in the game.
Considering there is no day/night, no pack hunting, no herding (also for protection), no resting, no breeding, limited abilities overall, I don't see a problem in toning this down for balance purposes. The game is far from realistic anyway, its not even meant to be or based on realism, so may as well make it play better.
Dr. Kajal Dua.
It's funny really... It's short lived of course.
"Bioengineer dinosaurs that think, feel and react intelligently to the world around them"
Frontier Marketing Department
Not even remotely true, imo.
The Carnivores are relentless and will circumnavigate the entire map to ensure everything they can kill... is dead, with a higher priority than anything else they can do... like erm, hmm... IMO, it needs toning down. Wouldn't be so bad if they had a rest for a while to recoup energy etc, but they don't because that's not something in the game.
Considering there is no day/night, no pack hunting, no herding (also for protection), no resting, no breeding, limited abilities overall, I don't see a problem in toning this down for balance purposes. The game is far from realistic anyway, its not even meant to be or based on realism, so may as well make it play better.
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Come on!
Do you think 'territory' is just about 'comfort zone' for some species so that species can live totally alone on some amount ranges of area from any other species (herbie and/or carnie) ..? Really...???
Yes, there are some 'comfort zone' between one species with another in the wild. Although, some species are more tolerant with other species.
For example Hippos and Crocs. I knew that possible cz adult hippos are more stronger than nile crocs but we are talking about juvenile here. Herds or groups of animals always had juvenile or the weak one inside them so with your argument hippos should live by comfort zone with Crocs but still, they live side by side in wild.
You can take to another example with Shark. Some species of shark live with their prey all around them cz shark will kill only if it go hungry and need to hunt, not go beserk and kill all fish on their sight.
And there are no such thing like 'Surplus killings' in wild cz they know what they do and need to do. Yes, They will go to another hunt if they think it necessary to full fill their needs just like bears after hibernation. They will go hunt more then once to full fill their needs but never wiped out entire herds of their prey just like my 'Sue' did in my 'Paras' paddock back in the game. In fact, I never see any evidence or reports like some lion pride go beserk and kill entire herd of zebra cz it 'accidentally' pass on their territory.
Talk about territory/ territorial area, isn't same with 'comfort zone'. It lot wider in range compare to 'comfort zone'. The purpose are to split area to live and what i mean live here are area to eat, drink, breed, sleep, etc.
Although, in some case it work with different species, but mostly work with same species and for sure, not work with predator and prey relationship!
Why? cz it's one of many way how nature balanced itself. So ecosystem can stay still and life uh.. finds a way like what happened on Sorna but not on Nublar in JP lore.
You said that tigers has 100 km territory in range. So based your statement, if tigers prey can't live 'inside' their territory, Tiger need walk more than 100km just to hunt some deer or buffalo??
or for example if you go to some nature preserve in India, atleast you need more than 3 hours on wheels! before you can spot buffalo herd after you spent so many times to search 1 or 2 tiger on their 100km territorial area???
come on!!!
Plus even we have no idea about how 'actual' prehistoric animals live their life, we have JP lore and i taught this game stay in it and should continue with it.
Not all dinos in JP/JW are hybrid! There are different between hybrid and non-hybrid so not all predator dinos should be broke like the hybrid.
( Yes, i know that we can't get 100% pure dino DNA in lore, WU patch the gap with another animals gene and make new one call 'Null allele' or gene mutation. In game it called as non-hybrid but i called it as 'modified' dino and not hybrid. So basically we got 2 type of dinos in lore. The modified one or whatever you call it, this one based on 'real life' dinos with some modification in their DNA and the hybrid one, based mix between multiple species of dinos. As far as we knew, in lore we just have 2 species of them, Indominus and Indoraptor and this thing even already in the game...so well done, Frontier!)
So i hope Frontier will fix and improve this issue in the future, not just because this will make the game stay on the track, but mainly since the AI already become the main issue even before the game released and need to be fix and improve ASAP.
First of all Hippo herds protect their young and keep them in the center of the herd, so the crocs can't get to them. There's been multiple videos showing crocs gettin' DESTROYED by hippos because they tried to get to the juveniles or weak ones. Predators doesn't engage in a fight they can't win. Furthermore Hippos are actually way more aggressive than crocs. So it would be suicide for crocs to attack hippos.
And sharks are seaanimals which have no relation at all with dinosaurs, so it's a really weird example to bring up... But when you wanna talk about aquatic animals, dolphins have been proved to kill Porpoise herds for fun. It's not uncommon that a bunch of these animals are washed up on shore and experts concluding they were killed by dolphins for no apparent reason.
Just the fact that you say "surplus killings" doesn't happen in the wild, just shows you know nothing about what you're talking about... You obviously have internet since you're on this forum, so maybe you should look up the term and see the facts before you start talking. LOL. It's a very well known term in the animal kingdom. And I've been around cats all my life and they do surplus killings ALL THE TIME. Killing mice and birds for fun. Wolfs are known to do this pretty often. Kill entire herds of elk and leaving them there...
And maybe you should go watch the documentary about the lions of Sabi Sands... They were 6 lions that KILLED everything even other lions and took over the largest territory ever by lions. They ended up killing each other, that's how their herd ended. They controlled everything in a radius of 267 square kilometres.
And lots of animals can live inside a tiger territory. A tiger is not 100 km wide so it can grap everything inside? LOL. It takes time for a tiger to track down prey. That doesn't mean they don't kill when they come across prey. And yes it's very hard to find a tiger in the wild. Most people that goes on safaris and all that almost never spots one, because of their crazy big territory. They are almost impossible to find. It's not unusual that it takes 10 hours to spot one. Even with experts by your side...
No one ever said the dinosaurs were hybrid. But they are genetically made and will never be like the real animals. They say this in almost all the movies and in the books. That's why they don't have feathers etc. So no these are not animals they are theme park monsters, to quote JP exactly...
Maybe you should research stuff before making yourself look stupid.
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First of all Hippo herds protect their young and keep them in the center of the herd, so the crocs can't get to them. There's been multiple videos showing crocs gettin' DESTROYED by hippos because they tried to get to the juveniles or weak ones. Predators doesn't engage in a fight they can't win. Furthermore Hippos are actually way more aggressive than crocs. So it would be suicide for crocs to attack hippos.
And sharks are seaanimals which have no relation at all with dinosaurs, so it's a really weird example to bring up... But when you wanna talk about aquatic animals, dolphins have been proved to kill Porpoise herds for fun. It's not uncommon that a bunch of these animals are washed up on shore and experts concluding they were killed by dolphins for no apparent reason.
Just the fact that you say "surplus killings" doesn't happen in the wild, just shows you know nothing about what you're talking about... You obviously have internet since you're on this forum, so maybe you should look up the term and see the facts before you start talking. LOL. It's a very well known term in the animal kingdom. And I've been around cats all my life and they do surplus killings ALL THE TIME. Killing mice and birds for fun. Wolfs are known to do this pretty often. Kill entire herds of elk and leaving them there...
And maybe you should go watch the documentary about the lions of Sabi Sands... They were 6 lions that KILLED everything even other lions and took over the largest territory ever by lions. They ended up killing each other, that's how their herd ended. They controlled everything in a radius of 267 square kilometres.
And lots of animals can live inside a tiger territory. A tiger is not 100 km wide so it can grap everything inside? LOL. It takes time for a tiger to track down prey. That doesn't mean they don't kill when they come across prey. And yes it's very hard to find a tiger in the wild. Most people that goes on safaris and all that almost never spots one, because of their crazy big territory. They are almost impossible to find. It's not unusual that it takes 10 hours to spot one. Even with experts by your side...
No one ever said the dinosaurs were hybrid. But they are genetically made and will never be like the real animals. They say this in almost all the movies and in the books. That's why they don't have feathers etc. So no these are not animals they are theme park monsters, to quote JP exactly...
Maybe you should research stuff before making yourself look stupid.
You make no sense. What animal will kill another animal and without skipping a beat move on to EXPENDING more energy to chase down the next animal?
A group of lions will usually kill one animal and then they will all eat that one animal and be done.
If you fill a lizard tank full of mice the lizard will not rampage and slaughter all the mice. It would eat one maybe 2 and then rest because its need to feed is satiated.
Animals can go on rampages but it is not the norm. In fact you could take a patch of forest maybe 2km by 2km and introduce some rabbits and a fox. I gaurantee you that forest will be overrun by rabbits in a few years even though the fox is actively hunting them. Because the fox will not spend every waking moment of its existence trying to eradicate the rabbits.
JPOG had less room than this game and you were able to introduce a halfway decent ecosystem. Ive left my ps2 overnight multiple times in the past just to see which dinos would survive 8-12 hours without human intervention.
Theres plenty of room on the island to work with to have a small working ecosystem if the carnivores werent psychopaths. Unfortunately the A.I. is trash. Just admit the A.I. is garbage instead of trying to interpret it as realstic behavior when its not.
First off, it's pretty ignorant to believe a flock of Gallimimus could live alongside a T-Rex.
Second of all, predators kill over territory. Not only because of hunger. A T-Rex would probably kill everything in it's paddock, if it wasn't outmatched by size. So I don't really see the issue here...
Carnivores don't hunt and kill unless irritated/feel threatened/hungry. Carnivores let those that are eventually its prey to live in its territory peacefully till needing a meal. That's how an ecosystem works, no predator is just a killing machine that kills them all. The only ones we know to be like that are the Indominus Rex and Indoraptor that are engineered to be killing machines and psychotic as they are just genetic monsters. Whereas dinos should still show the proper behaviors of a well done ecosystem. Most predators don't hunt the prey that would give it the greatest challenge and they don't hunt when they are not hungry. I believe the AI could be tweaked in order to allow this so that we can have carnivores and herbivores in the same enclosure where they wouldn't always fight/kill/be killed due to both being comfortable and not hungry. No matter the size of the predator, it is the same.
First off, it's pretty ignorant to believe a flock of Gallimimus could live alongside a T-Rex.
Second of all, predators kill over territory. Not only because of hunger. A T-Rex would probably kill everything in it's paddock, if it wasn't outmatched by size. So I don't really see the issue here...
Predators don't just kill everything they find in their territory. They fight and scare off rivals but they don't slaughter everything.
The T-Rex would fight other predators its size if they challenge it. Predators smaller than itself would run away.
It would hunt food that doesn't pose a threat to it's health before it would hunt food that could harm it.
Right now a T-Rex will just butcher everything it finds and fight everything until it dies.
I came with plenty of examples of animals killing for fun. I wrote them all down... It's weird I have to repeat myself. Start off by reading my posts before you answer or research yourself... Even normal cats do this.
And a lizard is not an aggressive animal at all. These are theme park monsters made to be aggressive. Huge difference.
And if you introduce a couple of rabbits to a fox with 2 km radius I guarantee you, those rabbits are done. So many examples of especially foxes killing entire herds of chickens without proper cause.
And what does JPOG have to do with this? Because that old game had incorporated an illogical ecosystem doesn't mean JWE has to do it? Weird to think they are copying another game. Why would they? They could just make JPOG2 if this was the case... You could never get an ecosystem of highly aggressive and huge animals to work on the small space we have in this game. Like I stated earlier a Rex would probably need a territory size of 200 kilometers. It wouldn't allow any other carnivores to roam in that area.
I don't think the AI is trash. I'm perfectly fine with it. I wouldn't have cows and lions in the same pen, if I had a regular zoo. The cows would be dead. So why the hell would I mix dinosaurs? LOL
There's PLENTY of examples of surplus killings in the animal kingdom. Happens all the time.
If you keep an apex predator in a paddock and introduces any animal, it will establish dominance and most likely kill it. Let me know which zoos today has mixed animals?
And there's plenty of examples of animals doing surplus killings. I wrote about a dozen examples. Look it up for yourself.
I agree that they wouldn't fight to death, but the problem here is the herbivores being defenceless. Not the carnivores behavior. They wouldn't attack if the herbivores could defend themselves or run away.
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People complain about this and other things with the Dinosaur AI. The issue is that this game was not made with a free roam in mind. It was obviously made for a park setting only. That is why there is no herding or anything like that cause there is no reason for them to herd cause they were never meant to be in large enclosures or free roam. The buildable areas on the islands are kind of limited as well. This is why you see people complaining and comparing this games AI to JPOG. JPOG had the AI it did cause there was a free roam mode called Site B mode. In this game it's not needed cause there is no Site B mode. You actually build a park on Site B in this game.
This doesn't mean it can't change or be fixed. A Dinosaur free roam would be nice. But the whole carnivores chasing down every single herbivore and killing it is annoying. But again it's because they were never meant to be in enclosures with Herbivores. At least not ones they could kill. Part of the management depth of this game is building enclosures to meet the Dinosaurs needs. This means finding out which ones can be placed together, how much space they need and so on.
This doesn't mean it can't change or be fixed. A Dinosaur free roam would be nice. But the whole carnivores chasing down every single herbivore and killing it is annoying. But again it's because they were never meant to be in enclosures with Herbivores. At least not ones they could kill. Part of the management depth of this game is building enclosures to meet the Dinosaurs needs. This means finding out which ones can be placed together, how much space they need and so on.
Just want to add something...
So, on Isla Sorna I tried building an open park, enclosing guests. A single Carnivore went around the entire map killing everything it could kill as quickly as it could... most of which where not in sight, but it had a GPS locator, clearly. It couldn't see the others behind a huge mountain on the other side of the map though, but he still found them (great senses) and wasn't hungry. Unrealistic in my eyes...
Anyway... on to my point... So, they are mean murdering machines... right?
If you build an enclosure with electrified concrete walls, containing an aggressive blood thirsty beast, ensuring all needs are satisfied, aside from food, then backing on to that an enclosure full of yummy herbivores, with the cheap fence to separate them....
Why does the blood thirsty beast not headbutt the fence a few times and kill them all, especially when he is hungry, starving and even dying due to that? I mean, It took him 15 years before he became hungry and 25 before he was starving, then his health started dropping.
You would have thought he would do anything to survive, especially when its dangled in his face, right? I mean, Rexy can see and smell these guys, he roars at them occasionally too.
But no, what was the result....He decided to lay down and subsequently died in his enclosure.
But move a tree and make him unhappy and boy will he go berserk and try to kill all humans.
Zero sense made.
Now... working off that basis... tying its hunting / murder spree to its hunger / aggression level, but also, just to add a bit more of a dynamic to it, it could also be tied to its comfort level and desperation, or whether its agitated or panicking too. In such states, even harmless dino's may make stupid decisions (if there was an ounce of intelligence to the AI that is) and get in a fight with something it perhaps shouldn't have, a fight for survival. If all is rosy, then let him chill out a bit and not try to find the next kill immediately, no matter where that may be on the map.
So, on Isla Sorna I tried building an open park, enclosing guests. A single Carnivore went around the entire map killing everything it could kill as quickly as it could... most of which where not in sight, but it had a GPS locator, clearly. It couldn't see the others behind a huge mountain on the other side of the map though, but he still found them (great senses) and wasn't hungry. Unrealistic in my eyes...
Anyway... on to my point... So, they are mean murdering machines... right?
If you build an enclosure with electrified concrete walls, containing an aggressive blood thirsty beast, ensuring all needs are satisfied, aside from food, then backing on to that an enclosure full of yummy herbivores, with the cheap fence to separate them....
Why does the blood thirsty beast not headbutt the fence a few times and kill them all, especially when he is hungry, starving and even dying due to that? I mean, It took him 15 years before he became hungry and 25 before he was starving, then his health started dropping.
You would have thought he would do anything to survive, especially when its dangled in his face, right? I mean, Rexy can see and smell these guys, he roars at them occasionally too.
But no, what was the result....He decided to lay down and subsequently died in his enclosure.
But move a tree and make him unhappy and boy will he go berserk and try to kill all humans.
Zero sense made.
Now... working off that basis... tying its hunting / murder spree to its hunger / aggression level, but also, just to add a bit more of a dynamic to it, it could also be tied to its comfort level and desperation, or whether its agitated or panicking too. In such states, even harmless dino's may make stupid decisions (if there was an ounce of intelligence to the AI that is) and get in a fight with something it perhaps shouldn't have, a fight for survival. If all is rosy, then let him chill out a bit and not try to find the next kill immediately, no matter where that may be on the map.
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You are correct. I tried building a massive maze of walls between a carnivore and a herd of herbivores. The carnivore immediately ran through the maze to kill anything it would find. They aren't animals, they are heatseeking missiles of death, despite these guys up here making this their strange hill to die on by pretending carnivores should act this way.
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In the JP novel Muldoon mentions how the Rex would go over to the Apatosaur paddock and wiggle it's arms in frustration cause it knew it couldn't get at the herbivores in the paddock next to it. So even in the Lore they didn't bust down the fences probably cause they were electrified, which is realistic. If Dinosaurs had good memory they would remember not to go near the fences. But in this game the electric fences don't really stop them from breaking out.
Also at the end of the day it's just a game.
I buy this idea. When the herbivores defend their "comfort zone", they should have more leverage and have more chances of driving off the carnivore if their defense genome is high.
You realize that some carnivores today, like bears, etc. can smell things 2 miles away. For all we know, T-REX could too.
But I do agree, most animals do not waste calories hunting things if they don't need to eat.
But this is the same game where gigantic apex predators can't even look at each other with out killing each other in minutes.
I doubt seriously they actually fought this ferociously considering any fight would probably result in mortal wounds for each dinosaur.
But I do agree, most animals do not waste calories hunting things if they don't need to eat.
But this is the same game where gigantic apex predators can't even look at each other with out killing each other in minutes.
I doubt seriously they actually fought this ferociously considering any fight would probably result in mortal wounds for each dinosaur.