A (probably insignificant) observation - When the relic is bobbing up and down in the tower, the 'ball' and markings are towards the top. However, when you target the relic from within the SRV, the ball and markings are shown on the lower half in the targeting hologram. Does this mean that the relic is upside-down in the tower? If so, is that significant for any reason?
Carnivorous Space Elves AKA The Guardians
- Thread starter CMDR Dreamstate
- Start date
- Status
Guardian Language Database
This section specifically focuses on the language of the Guardians (will be expanded on as more research continues).
Original post here by CMDR Moribus: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Discussions?p=6266590&viewfull=1#post6266590
SET A (top Glyph set)
SET B (middle Glyph set)
SET C (bottom Glyph set)
RELIC (enhanced image supplied by ExoForce)
RELIC TOWERS (images and ideas from Thatchinho)
This is some fine detective work by CMDR Moribus, CMDR ExoForce, and CMDR Thatchinho - not much I can add to this, except the odd individual triangles could be fingers (thereby represented by digits and which they easily have enough digits to represent them) - the rest do resemble Arm + Elbow + Elbow + Wrist + Digits, easily formulating complex sign language.
Note: Some symbols may not look like they represent arms and limbs, but it is worth remembering that their culture did advance from sign language much later - these symbols are just very much *based* on their evolution.
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Here is how a human arm looks:
This is how the Guardian arm looks once the extra 2 joints are added:
Working on the rest soon
I made a list of descriptions for the future sketches I'm doing to refine them.
This is how the Guardian arm looks once the extra 2 joints are added:
Working on the rest soon
I made a list of descriptions for the future sketches I'm doing to refine them.Physiological Sketch References and Explainations.
The below snippets from the Codex entries will be used for my new sketches to update the Guardian art in this thread (and for potentially anyone else to do some of their own artwork). My explainations bulleted under the bolded qoutes are to further clarify some information and for what the future sketches will have based on the information. Some of the information is not enough, but I will try to do something sensible with it.
Ram Tah Codex Quotes
The below snippets from the Codex entries will be used for my new sketches to update the Guardian art in this thread (and for potentially anyone else to do some of their own artwork). My explainations bulleted under the bolded qoutes are to further clarify some information and for what the future sketches will have based on the information. Some of the information is not enough, but I will try to do something sensible with it.
Ram Tah Codex Quotes
- "They weren't that different to us"
- This could suggest other things not mentioned, such as hair on their head or on their bodies. This sentence could mean they looked physically closer to us that of, say, the “Grey Aliens” in human pop-culture.
- "Their morphology was bipedal"
- "Taller and more slender than the average human"
- However, we can also take from this that, just like humans, no Guardian is also the same – some Guardians will look smaller, taller, thinner or fatter than other Guardians.
- "Their skin tone was red, encompassing the whole spectrum of red hues"
- "Their faces were proportionally smaller than ours"
- Does this mean they had larger skulls? Or small skulls and large faces? Their faces and skulls may have been slightly smaller than compared to the rest of the proportions of their body. While it isn’t too clear, my future sketch won’t be much different from previous faces because there is not enough detail in this description to accurately depict the face and head.
- "They had round eyes, darkened from their evolution under a very strong sunlight"
- Humans have round eyes, too (I think the “round eyes” is to basically shoot down any idea of any other type of eye that exists in nature) – so either they have similar eyes to us, or this sentence means the Guardians eyelids’ were rounded (therefore, appeared round with no eyelids covering the eyes at all). Because it isn’t clear as it fails to mention the shape of the eyelids in the eye sockets, a future sketch will default the round eyes because of evidence: “They weren't that different to us”; “Physical similarities between us and them (Culture)”
- "The colouration and structure of the eye indicates that not only they have keener vision than us, but they could also see a wider spectrum"
- Colours that are rarer in humans, such as Grey, Green, Blue, Violet, and Red (Albinism) may be much more common, but as a mixed palette. A future sketch will make the Iris colours multicoloured.
- "The nose appears to have been vestigial"
- Vestigial may mean they have no nose at all, or they may have small noses when compared to a human (not as prominent). I will compromise on a future sketch, as no nose at all will just reduce the anatomical look of the face to little more than modern day “Grey Aliens” as seen in popular human culture – therefore, just because they have smaller noses than humans it makes the Guardian’s no less alien. Having the Guardians with no nose at all would just stereotype them in modern human pop culture.
- "Their ears were very tightly formed against the skull"
- This doesn’t say they had no ears at all – they do have ears, but they are tightly formed against the skull. This serves to enhance their acoustic chambers. I'll likely do several variations of the ears.
- "Their forelimbs had a serrated edge"
- It is unknown where the serrated edge of their forearm was located; atop the forearm or beneath it, for example. Only one serrated edge is on each forearm from the description provided, though it is possible the serrated edge ran along up the entire forearm and was connected by both joints. For now, a simple serrated edge on one forearm should only be sketched for accuracy.
- Here are examples of a "Clean Edge" (top inset) and "Serrated Edge" (bottom inset)
- "They had two more joints in their arms than we do"
- This suggests the Guardians had three arm joints in total, compared to a human’s one joint. Taking into consideration the biceps would need to be strong to lift and use heavy tools, like a human, it is likely the extra joints are located in the forearm region – this is further backed up by the need to facilitate more complex sign language than a human in the Language Codex; “The Guardians had tremendous dexterity and freedom of movement in their forelimbs and hands”.
-
- "They had two hands, each with four digits"
- While not expressed very well by the information, the thumb is considered a digit on a human hand, so therefore the Guardians likely had a thumb and three fingers (thumbs are considered a requirement for using tools, which the Guardians did create and use).
- "They had two distinct genders and reproduced sexually"
- "There don't appear to have been any taboos surrounding sexual activity"
- This can mean so many things – for example, it may have been normal to walk around completely naked or topless and dressed in just a loin-cloth – this seems logical, considering some human tribes do dress like that example in hot continents or countries. However, this sentence probably means more to do with how intercourse was conducted and that no taboos was just a cultural difference compared to humans, whom often are either very liberal or extremely repressed depending on human culture.
- "Small mouths"
- Compared to other creatures on earth, scientists consider homo-sapiens to have small mouths for their relative size compared to other creatures. Humans are also the most susceptible animal on earth to choke on their food, as once a baby grows older, the larynx drops further down the neck in order to allow speech, but at the same time this increases the chance to choke on food or drink. Because of this wording and lack of description, a future sketch of the Guardians will default to evidence: “They weren't that different to us”; “Physical similarities between us and them (Culture)”.
- "They were carnivores"
- Carnivores on earth have different teeth to that of Omnivores or Herbivores – across all species over hundreds of millions of years of evolution, the teeth of Carnivores are generally sharper, pointier and more pronounced for piercing and stripping flesh. If the Guardians are to be a tad more alien to make them stand apart from humans, a future sketch will show “carnivorous” type teeth.
- "The Guardians retained the ability to digest raw meat"
- While this detail won’t help in a sketch, it is likely the Guardians had an alkaline digestive tract, not an acidic one like a human.
- "Their environmental requirements were very similar to our own"
- "They preferred warmer worlds than we do"
- "They had thick skins but lacked a fatty layer"
- Lacking a fatter layer does not mean their bodies did not store fat. It is therefore likely the Guardians looked more athletic than the average human.
- "Physical similarities between us and them" (Culture)
- "The Guardians had tremendous dexterity and freedom of movement in their forelimbs and hands" (Language)
Okay, below are the new pictures I've been working on...
Honestly, not much has changed at all.
I've gone by Ram Tah's codex entries as closely as possible, but I want to break down the reasoning for several features; namely the eyes, nose, ears, and the size of the face itself.
Nose: Although the nose is vestigial that isn't to say that have at least something of a nose on their face - while not greatly shown in the images below, they do lack prominent nose bridges like that of a human, and the nose itself is also reduced to a fraction of that of a human nose (they just aren't represented amazingly in the drawings - but I think I did well on the compromise).
Eyes: I'm still no happy with the size, despite reducing them vastly from my last drawings - however, because the faces of the Guardians is "proportionally smaller" (to what, though? I guess that means "proportionally smaller [to us humans]"), that isn't to say the eyes are - just the face, such as jaw, mouth, nose, ears and forehead - so the eyes, I've assumed, are going to look of an ordinary size, like a human set of eyes, but will look pretty big when the proportionally smaller faces are equated. Hence, they may look big, but they actually aren't - only on a Guardian face would they look big, but it's just an illusion. Also, I've multicoloured the eyes on the iris (I think its the iris, tired!), to represent other descriptions by Ram Tah - whereas their pupils are pure black. Honestly, the descriptions made it hard to picture exactly, considering they mention colourations and then dark eyes... so again, I think I've equated that okay, but I'm still not happy with the descriptions.
Face: Yes, you will definitley notice the head looks massive this time round, but it is literally down to the way the Guardians are described with proportionally smaller faces to begin with - and the only way to have a small face compared to us is if you have a skull that remains our size or larger.
Ears: They appear to be "pointy" but they aren't - I've done my best to represent them both in the pictures below, but the ears are "tightly formed" around the skull, so it almost looks like they wrapping around it (they just curve with a skull really tightly, so there probably is a slight gap between the ears and the cranium). I've also added in several more ears canals (hope they look visible to all), as the Guardians are described with more acute acoustic chambers etc., so I assumed in my sketches that they probably had (or not) more than one or two ear canals to have finer hearing.
So there we go...
I left some of the hair out of the images so you can clearly see the ears.
Can't say I'm too happy with the drawings this time (I think I much prefer the old ones), but these new drawings are probably slightly more accurate this time round. I have to say, the extra joints on the arms really freak me out unless they are at rest
New body image:
Thumbnail:
Large Image (Full Size):
New facial image:
Thumbnail:
Large Image (Full Size):
Honestly, not much has changed at all.
I've gone by Ram Tah's codex entries as closely as possible, but I want to break down the reasoning for several features; namely the eyes, nose, ears, and the size of the face itself.
Nose: Although the nose is vestigial that isn't to say that have at least something of a nose on their face - while not greatly shown in the images below, they do lack prominent nose bridges like that of a human, and the nose itself is also reduced to a fraction of that of a human nose (they just aren't represented amazingly in the drawings - but I think I did well on the compromise).
Eyes: I'm still no happy with the size, despite reducing them vastly from my last drawings - however, because the faces of the Guardians is "proportionally smaller" (to what, though? I guess that means "proportionally smaller [to us humans]"), that isn't to say the eyes are - just the face, such as jaw, mouth, nose, ears and forehead - so the eyes, I've assumed, are going to look of an ordinary size, like a human set of eyes, but will look pretty big when the proportionally smaller faces are equated. Hence, they may look big, but they actually aren't - only on a Guardian face would they look big, but it's just an illusion. Also, I've multicoloured the eyes on the iris (I think its the iris, tired!), to represent other descriptions by Ram Tah - whereas their pupils are pure black. Honestly, the descriptions made it hard to picture exactly, considering they mention colourations and then dark eyes... so again, I think I've equated that okay, but I'm still not happy with the descriptions.
Face: Yes, you will definitley notice the head looks massive this time round, but it is literally down to the way the Guardians are described with proportionally smaller faces to begin with - and the only way to have a small face compared to us is if you have a skull that remains our size or larger.
Ears: They appear to be "pointy" but they aren't - I've done my best to represent them both in the pictures below, but the ears are "tightly formed" around the skull, so it almost looks like they wrapping around it (they just curve with a skull really tightly, so there probably is a slight gap between the ears and the cranium). I've also added in several more ears canals (hope they look visible to all), as the Guardians are described with more acute acoustic chambers etc., so I assumed in my sketches that they probably had (or not) more than one or two ear canals to have finer hearing.
So there we go...
I left some of the hair out of the images so you can clearly see the ears.
Can't say I'm too happy with the drawings this time (I think I much prefer the old ones), but these new drawings are probably slightly more accurate this time round. I have to say, the extra joints on the arms really freak me out unless they are at rest
New body image:
Thumbnail:
Large Image (Full Size):
New facial image:
Thumbnail:
Large Image (Full Size):
Good job. Those arms are freaky. Reminds me of a double fracture of the leg I once saw at a game of footy
Good job. Those arms are freaky. Reminds me of a double fracture of the leg I once saw at a game of footy
Yeah, I think the same looking at the limbs... they look so fractured it makes me queesy looking at them lol.
I am wondering a couple of things though, after re-reading the entries and starting at the new sketches.
We humans evolved on a temperate world which, for a large portion of the earth's history, was dominated by reptilians (dinosaurs) plus however many ancient fish, mammals later on etc. - but then I got thinking more about our own planet's past, and this time about the massive insects that had evolved, too.
See these 10 pre-historic insects: https://listverse.com/2013/01/14/10-prehistoric-bugs-that-could-seriously-mess-you-up/
The last one is the length of a person!
Insects have many limbs, and this leads me to wonder if the Guardians had to evolve their forelimbs like this with two extra joints (being a mammal) in response to a world where Insects were actually rife more than any other type of fauna? (Reptiles, Amphibions, Fish, Mammals, etc)
It is conceivable that they may have also developed the serrated edge on their forelimbs as a way to cut through exo-skeletons, too? That would totally be different to our world, which was mostly dominated by reptiles, even after several extinction events.
However, whereas humans practically only had to deal with threats that were primarily* mammals, maybe the Guardians threats, such as insects, were super different.
* Yes, fish, crocadiles, poisonous insects, shrooms, venom etc are all threats, but I'm mainly focusing on what humans hunted but were still dangerous, such as the mammoth etc.
The multi-joints that the Guardians have make them appear more insect-like, in my opinion, despite being a humanoid mammal - if they had to wrestle or hunt prey, like insects, then perhaps "diving" onto a massive ant-like creature from the tropical tree-tops in which to decapitate one with their limbs (wrap around the thin neck to cut and sever) could make some sense.
Not much information came to light as to what fauna lived on their world, or what they hunted, but if their world was one that was dominated by various, differently evolved insectoid species, then they would still be considered carnivorous from eating that type of fauna.
This naturally leads on to the Thargoids - whom despise Ancient Guardian technology and are insectoid. Perhaps, after having evolved on a world dominated by insects, this gave the Guardians a natural edge against any space-faring insects, too. So many different variations of insects they shared their homeworld with would have given the Guardians potential insight to exploit weaknesses, especially given the genetic diversity of a world rife with insects to prey upon.
My thinking is: the insects on their world (if they existed or not) could have been, not only super-sized to that of 8 or 9 feet, but I'm talking T-rex sized insects - insects the size of mammoths or even the size of a jumbo jet. You'd certainly want extra arm joins to avoid those bad boys if you had to flee up vertical surfaces like a rock face, tight ravine, or trees.
Perhaps the Guardians had the Thargoids on "farm", and until they vastly destroyed themselves from two civil wars, had kept the Thargoids at bay or had scared them away for millenia.
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After months of trying to imagine their arms, I think I've come up with something I can comprehend.
Those extra joints probably would have allowed unique movements to sheath or brandish those serrated forearm structures. Perhaps their arms were similar to the hind legs of a lot of earth's animals, but reversed.
For simplicity, think of the forearm as shaped like the letter Z. If you fold it further, you can imagine the serrated edge attached to the middle section and being mostly out of the way when "retracted." When deployed, the edge would neatly sit along the inner or outer forearm, depending on theories of how they used them, and become a useful weapon. So, like the hind leg of a four legged mammal of today, but with some notable changes.
Anyway, this allows the arm to neatly fold when not trying to kill something, and keeps them from falling on their own tools and well...killing themselves. When they wanted to kill something, the extra reach and dexterity would help tremendously.
I initially thought of this joint structure being in their upper arm area, but settled on it being closer to the middle/lower arm region to explain why it might help them use their natural blades. Your thoughts?
P.S. I'd draw it up if I had the tools available. Not a single writing instrument nearby, nor a useable PC. :c
Those extra joints probably would have allowed unique movements to sheath or brandish those serrated forearm structures. Perhaps their arms were similar to the hind legs of a lot of earth's animals, but reversed.
For simplicity, think of the forearm as shaped like the letter Z. If you fold it further, you can imagine the serrated edge attached to the middle section and being mostly out of the way when "retracted." When deployed, the edge would neatly sit along the inner or outer forearm, depending on theories of how they used them, and become a useful weapon. So, like the hind leg of a four legged mammal of today, but with some notable changes.
Anyway, this allows the arm to neatly fold when not trying to kill something, and keeps them from falling on their own tools and well...killing themselves. When they wanted to kill something, the extra reach and dexterity would help tremendously.
I initially thought of this joint structure being in their upper arm area, but settled on it being closer to the middle/lower arm region to explain why it might help them use their natural blades. Your thoughts?
P.S. I'd draw it up if I had the tools available. Not a single writing instrument nearby, nor a useable PC. :c
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I really like these ideas
A while back when I was trying to imagine what they looked like I made up an idea board from my interpretation of the descriptions (there's also the Remlok drawings in there), I'll post it here in case it's useful to anyone:
And this leg from ID aliens was the only one I could really find with enough joints:
I like how it folds, as you guys have pointed out that many joints are really strange-looking.
Also I tried to draw a bit of extrapolation given the descriptions, and I too ended up with something that looks quite insect-like, it's terrible since I'm definitely no artist. But I was surprised how hard it is to make something that someone would describe as RT did the Guardians while trying to still stick to some semblance of reality, while not making them too human - and also realising how much room for interpretation there is left in RT's brief descriptions - the bracket is very wide.
I'm not sure the Guardians are mammalian are they? At least in the strictest sense of the word?
A while back when I was trying to imagine what they looked like I made up an idea board from my interpretation of the descriptions (there's also the Remlok drawings in there), I'll post it here in case it's useful to anyone:
And this leg from ID aliens was the only one I could really find with enough joints:
I like how it folds, as you guys have pointed out that many joints are really strange-looking.
Also I tried to draw a bit of extrapolation given the descriptions, and I too ended up with something that looks quite insect-like, it's terrible since I'm definitely no artist. But I was surprised how hard it is to make something that someone would describe as RT did the Guardians while trying to still stick to some semblance of reality, while not making them too human - and also realising how much room for interpretation there is left in RT's brief descriptions - the bracket is very wide.
I'm not sure the Guardians are mammalian are they? At least in the strictest sense of the word?
I really like these ideas
A while back when I was trying to imagine what they looked like I made up an idea board from my interpretation of the descriptions (there's also the Remlok drawings in there), I'll post it here in case it's useful to anyone:
And this leg from ID aliens was the only one I could really find with enough joints:
https://i.imgur.com/tQ31ZbV.png
I like how it folds, as you guys have pointed out that many joints are really strange-looking.
Also I tried to draw a bit of extrapolation given the descriptions, and I too ended up with something that looks quite insect-like, it's terrible since I'm definitely no artist. But I was surprised how hard it is to make something that someone would describe as RT did the Guardians while trying to still stick to some semblance of reality, while not making them too human - and also realising how much room for interpretation there is left in RT's brief descriptions - the bracket is very wide.
I'm not sure the Guardians are mammalian are they? At least in the strictest sense of the word?
Yep, you are 100% right, there is a wide margin for interpretation
which, in my case with my drawings, has been quite controversial to many people who have participated in this thread, because... how dare I make the Guardian ALIENS look so human lol.I would have thought they were mammals - again this isn't really mentioned by Ram Tah, so again there is much interpretation, but he ruled out scales and exo-skeletons with "red skin", so I assume the Guardians aren't reptilians or insectoid since niether of those life forms have skin. He also mentioned the Guardians carry their young until birth, which is something mammals do (don't lay eggs etc). They were bipedal, therefore possessed a back-bone, so again, much interpretation to Ram Tah, lol, but that meant they would have stood up straight.
I do like Remlok Industries drawings, but like many others I feel they have thrown information aside they didn't like, or again, interpreted the information to best fit their analysis (which many could argue I'm guilty of) - the Remlok drawings make the Guardians look like human pop-culture Grey Aliens, which I'm heavily sceptical of when it involves the Elite Universe.
This is the one bit of Ram Tah's info which I feel many people want to ignore, and it is really early in the Biology section at just No. 2:
2) "The information you've uncovered is very interesting and regards the Guardian's anatomy and physiology, you might be surprised to learn they weren't that different to us. Their morphology was bipedal, although they were generally taller and more slender than the average human. Their skin tone was red, encompassing the whole spectrum of red hues. There were various reasons for these changes in pigmentation, including genetic disposition and the fact that they darkened as they aged."
The underlined bit is most important - whereas the rest of the Biology information clarifies what differences there were between us and the Guardians, for all intents and purposes, Ram Tah, I think, is basically saying they looked very similar to us - as in, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore clothing (pelts etc), had hair on their heads, etc., followed by the next 16 entries painting the differences (extra forearm joints, darker eyes, potentially rounder eyes, red skin, taller, slender, lacking a fatty layer, thick skin, serrated ridges to kill and eat prey, proportionally smaller faces - I think that's all of them).
But again, much of this can be open to interpretation because we only have text - but I feel some people are ignoring and favoring some of Ram Tah's biology snippets in favor of others, whereas I'm trying to maintain the whole picture - of course, I could be horribly wrong in both counts (my own interpretation and that of other's use of Ram Tah's interpretation).
Until we get some sort of official art image of what they look like, we're all qualified in imagining what we want
and Frontier may decide to keep it that way...Still... that won't stop me drawing what I would like to personally see, and that goes for everyone else
Reptiles do have skin - it's just covered in scales. It's still skin though. Frogs have skin, birds have skin, and amphibians are cool because they breath through theirs.
Roughly, at different times, through various roots of evolutions, the 'rough' guide to evolution on other for creatures that do not have an exoskeleton is (ish):
Amphibians -> proto-reptiles, from which reptiles, sauropods and therapods evolved from. There's also the proto dinosaurs that lived in the Permian, the synapsids which were mammal-like reptilians.
Then through the fog of time mammals (of which there are three groups), the monotremes like Platypus, marsupials (kangaroos etc.) and then placentals (like us and cats etc.) evolved from the early mammal-like reptiles (evidence found in egg laying in monotremes, for example).
Then of course we have the whole dinosaur -> bird evolution, too.
TBH it's a moot point what kingdom/domain/classification they are - life on their planet might have followed roughly the kind of life we produced, but would only draw comparisons, not direct equivalence.
So they could be 'reptile-like', 'amphibian-like', or whatever-else-you-like. Either way they're still bipedal creatures that evolved to become spacefarers.
Ahhh thanks for sharing mate
I stand-correct what I said - it could be anyones guess then lol
Yep, you are 100% right, there is a wide margin for interpretation
In my own case, it's not that. It is more that if you read the data logs there are some very strong guides, such as no real nose or ears to speak ok, round black eyes, a very small mouth. Interestingly there is no mention of body or head hair at all, so we have no idea if they had hair or not.
But if you follow these guides you end up with something like a tall thin red skinned 'Grey' with long, strangely articulated arms with bony four arm ridges and a oddly angled pelvis for standing procreation.
It is superficially hominid, but quite distinct from human.
But I will grant you that without an image of video, there is a lot of leeway for interpretation.
Ahhh thanks for sharing mate
Hey no worries - I think you've done a great job so far
And these threads are the more quiet and sharing-side of the threads which is always a good thing.Also, regarding carrying the young until birth - don't forget there are reptiles and amphibians that give birth to live young, as well as fish doing the same.
I think the best we can do is really describe them as "xeno-humanoid". It would be cool if in the future when (if!) we meet their robo-ancestors we get to see a holo-record of them or something.
Yep, you are 100% right, there is a wide margin for interpretation
I would have thought they were mammals - again this isn't really mentioned by Ram Tah, so again there is much interpretation, but he ruled out scales and exo-skeletons with "red skin", so I assume the Guardians aren't reptilians or insectoid since niether of those life forms have skin. He also mentioned the Guardians carry their young until birth, which is something mammals do (don't lay eggs etc). They were bipedal, therefore possessed a back-bone, so again, much interpretation to Ram Tah, lol, but that meant they would have stood up straight.
I do like Remlok Industries drawings, but like many others I feel they have thrown information aside they didn't like, or again, interpreted the information to best fit their analysis (which many could argue I'm guilty of) - the Remlok drawings make the Guardians look like human pop-culture Grey Aliens, which I'm heavily sceptical of when it involves the Elite Universe.
This is the one bit of Ram Tah's info which I feel many people want to ignore, and it is really early in the Biology section at just No. 2:
2) "The information you've uncovered is very interesting and regards the Guardian's anatomy and physiology, you might be surprised to learn they weren't that different to us. Their morphology was bipedal, although they were generally taller and more slender than the average human. Their skin tone was red, encompassing the whole spectrum of red hues. There were various reasons for these changes in pigmentation, including genetic disposition and the fact that they darkened as they aged."
The underlined bit is most important - whereas the rest of the Biology information clarifies what differences there were between us and the Guardians, for all intents and purposes, Ram Tah, I think, is basically saying they looked very similar to us - as in, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore clothing (pelts etc), had hair on their heads, etc., followed by the next 16 entries painting the differences (extra forearm joints, darker eyes, potentially rounder eyes, red skin, taller, slender, lacking a fatty layer, thick skin, serrated ridges to kill and eat prey, proportionally smaller faces - I think that's all of them).
But again, much of this can be open to interpretation because we only have text - but I feel some people are ignoring and favoring some of Ram Tah's biology snippets in favor of others, whereas I'm trying to maintain the whole picture - of course, I could be horribly wrong in both counts (my own interpretation and that of other's use of Ram Tah's interpretation).
Until we get some sort of official art image of what they look like, we're all qualified in imagining what we want
Still... that won't stop me drawing what I would like to personally see, and that goes for everyone else
Agreed. While I think RT's descriptions do almost immediately make them sound like Greys (especially the big round eyes with small faces) I can't imagine Fdev just made a 'red' grey, although this made me doubt that for a while recently: https://www.frontierstore.net/game-extras/elite-dangerous-game-extras/xeno-ally-name-plate-pack.html
Tbh every time I read RT's descriptions I keep thinking of Edgar Rice Burroughs Barsoom series. The Martians in that are basically tall, red skinned humans that have evolved in the low gravity of Mars and have gone through climate change, they live in martial city-states and have civil wars (against the Green Martians). In that, Mars has an earth-like atmosphere (it was written a while ago
) so humans can live on Mars, but they find it much more comfortable than a Martian would on Earth (it's warmer, dryer and the lower G gives JC greater strength than natives (bizarrely)). The red Martians go mostly naked and consider humans prudish for wearing clothes and they don't have the same privacy boundaries as humans. They travel around in Airships. They have a very advanced technology, almost like magic, but at the same time they live very simple lives revolving around the Canals and living (to a degree) in tune with the planet. They have space travel, but don't really use it much, and when they do it's not done with rocket ships or anything so primitive 
There's a production concept video for a non-made version of it (before the disney one): http://www.iamag.co/features/john-carter-presentation-reel/
While they lack the extra arm joints and wrist blades, in almost all other ways they could easily match RT's descriptions. Your pictures could easily be illustrations for the Barsoom series IMO.
It's almost exactly like RT had just read A Princess of Mars when he needed to make up a bunch of stuff about the Guardians.
"Euuh... yeah, they've got... red skin... taller than a human... (flicks through more pages)...uhh what else... oh yeah they live in big city-states... they are all about responsibility and commitment to the race... they had a civil war and the Red skinned ones won... (flicks through more pages)... yeah they use Airships..."
But seriously - I'm finding it hard to reconcile RT's descriptions with what DB says about disliking making human-looking aliens - because RT makes it very much sound like they're quite human-looking, and even mentions the DNA similarities, and mentions the possibility of a shared heritage.
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Agreed. While I think RT's descriptions do almost immediately make them sound like Greys (especially the big round eyes with small faces) I can't imagine Fdev just made a 'red' grey, although this made me doubt that for a while recently: https://www.frontierstore.net/game-extras/elite-dangerous-game-extras/xeno-ally-name-plate-pack.html
Tbh every time I read RT's descriptions I keep thinking of Edgar Rice Burroughs Barsoom series. The Martians in that are basically tall, red skinned humans that have evolved in the low gravity of Mars and have gone through climate change, they live in martial city-states and have civil wars (against the Green Martians). In that, Mars has an earth-like atmosphere (it was written a while ago
While they lack the extra arm joints and wrist blades, in almost all other ways they could easily match RT's descriptions. Your pictures could easily be illustrations for the Barsoom series IMO.
It's almost exactly like RT had just read A Princess of Mars when he needed to make up a bunch of stuff about the Guardians.
"Euuh... yeah, they've got... red skin... taller than a human... (flicks through more pages)...uhh what else... oh yeah they live in big city-states... they are all about responsibility and commitment to the race... they had a civil war and the Red skinned ones won... (flicks through more pages)... yeah they use Airships..."
But seriously - I'm finding it hard to reconcile RT's descriptions with what DB says about disliking making human-looking aliens - because RT makes it very much sound like they're quite human-looking, and even mentions the DNA similarities, and mentions the possibility of a shared heritage.
Oh my god, that book series and the descriptions... someone must've read them or was inspired by them... the similarities are just too many to be coincidence (surely) lol.
That's the problem I have with the Guardians - they are either too alien-looking (Red Greys) to match Ram Tah's descriptions, but at the same time there's just so much interpretation that they could well as look like Red Greys. I dunno, I just find a whole bald-headed, red alien race a tad... meh... like, if they are Red Greys, then the Guardians would be nothing more than a human pop-culture joke - and would Frontier be that cruel?
What you said at the end did make me wonder, that David Braben wants aliens to be real aliens sort of thing - well, in a way, isn't that what the Thargoids are? They are totally alien to us. The Guardians, on the other hand, could be some kind of nod that it isn't impossible for another humanoid species to evolve that look very similar to humans and, in a way, if they really are extinct, then Braben has both his wishes fulfilled for his 'vision' - one totally alien race that is totally alien(thargoids), and a race of humanoids that existed but are now coincidently extinct (because millions of years apart argument).
Would be a royal shame if all we get out of the Guardians is just... tomb dust (sprinkled with anti-xeno tech, topped with some fluff cream)... just to satisfy one crowd of sci-fi fans that wants an extremely realistic yet narrow outlook on aliens existing in the universe (there aren't any other humanoids, they're all dead... except us, Jim).
Yep, you are 100% right, there is a wide margin for interpretation
I would have thought they were mammals - again this isn't really mentioned by Ram Tah, so again there is much interpretation, but he ruled out scales and exo-skeletons with "red skin", so I assume the Guardians aren't reptilians or insectoid since niether of those life forms have skin. He also mentioned the Guardians carry their young until birth, which is something mammals do (don't lay eggs etc). They were bipedal, therefore possessed a back-bone, so again, much interpretation to Ram Tah, lol, but that meant they would have stood up straight.
I do like Remlok Industries drawings, but like many others I feel they have thrown information aside they didn't like, or again, interpreted the information to best fit their analysis (which many could argue I'm guilty of) - the Remlok drawings make the Guardians look like human pop-culture Grey Aliens, which I'm heavily sceptical of when it involves the Elite Universe.
This is the one bit of Ram Tah's info which I feel many people want to ignore, and it is really early in the Biology section at just No. 2:
2) "The information you've uncovered is very interesting and regards the Guardian's anatomy and physiology, you might be surprised to learn they weren't that different to us. Their morphology was bipedal, although they were generally taller and more slender than the average human. Their skin tone was red, encompassing the whole spectrum of red hues. There were various reasons for these changes in pigmentation, including genetic disposition and the fact that they darkened as they aged."
The underlined bit is most important - whereas the rest of the Biology information clarifies what differences there were between us and the Guardians, for all intents and purposes, Ram Tah, I think, is basically saying they looked very similar to us - as in, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore clothing (pelts etc), had hair on their heads, etc., followed by the next 16 entries painting the differences (extra forearm joints, darker eyes, potentially rounder eyes, red skin, taller, slender, lacking a fatty layer, thick skin, serrated ridges to kill and eat prey, proportionally smaller faces - I think that's all of them).
But again, much of this can be open to interpretation because we only have text - but I feel some people are ignoring and favoring some of Ram Tah's biology snippets in favor of others, whereas I'm trying to maintain the whole picture - of course, I could be horribly wrong in both counts (my own interpretation and that of other's use of Ram Tah's interpretation).
Until we get some sort of official art image of what they look like, we're all qualified in imagining what we want
Still... that won't stop me drawing what I would like to personally see, and that goes for everyone else
Since they are from a seperate genesis of life none of their body structures are homologous to ours. eg. they don't have a spine as that's a structure that evolved in earth vertebrates.
They *might* have evolved something functionally equivalent, or they may have evolved a completely different solution to the problem, eg. birds and bees have wings but they were developed independently and have nothing in common.
You're right, but while convergent evolution is possible given a vast universe of evolutionary possibility and billions of years to happen, I don't believe that in our galaxy we'd meet (or almost meet) another alien race that's evolved completely independently of us and yet is so similar in so many ways - too many similarities to occur given what we know of evolutionary processes.
I think this is the part that really tells us what direction Fdev are thinking in (unless RT is totally lying
)"But this new data contains one tantalising detail that stands out: their biochemistry was very similar to our own. They had blood in the same fashion as us, and it fulfilled exactly the same role as it does for us. Beyond this, they share a similar genetic structure, with DNA and RNA their core building blocks. Although a full analysis has not yet been conducted, this might be evidence of a common ancestor, but also of a branching in their genetic history. This is an astounding discovery!" - Biology 6
Just doing a bit of theorycrafting:
Assume then that there was a "first" alien race to evolve in our galaxy billions of years ago. Call them The First Ones. Like us, they eventually started terraforming suitable planets, expanded across the galaxy, etc. Once that happens, they significantly increase the chances of more life like them eventually evolving - they're skewing the odds hugely because they're increasing the number of chances that type of life has to evolve and reducing the chances for that type of life to be wiped out by natural disasters, and also if they're terraforming, they might well be wiping out any competing types of life and microbial life, etc. They're moving the odds very far away from random evolution into a much more narrow form of evolution that's already got a decent head start down a particular path. Assume they eventually spread across the whole galaxy - that's an immense number of potential sites for life to evolve (even if they only occupy as many worlds as us, that's significant).
The First Ones eventually died off, became post-physical, left the Galaxy, whatever, after however many thousands or millions of years. Chances are good that the next sentient race to evolve and not die off before reaching space would be from one of the ELW's seeded by the First ones. (it might not have been, but statistically it's likely).
That cycle could just keep repeating for billions of years. Life evolves continually - most of it would die off, but every few millennia you'd probably get a new form rising to sentience, and because of the First Ones, it's more likely to be from worlds seeded by then, so it'll be more likely to share some characteristics.
Something like this can explain how there's many ELW's with Earth-compatible life, and how the Guardians can be very much like us - and how we can share similar DNA. On earth, almost all higher life has two sexes and quite a big chunk is recognisable to us as "similar" (like, most mammals are human-like in a very broad sense, despite diverging from our own evolutionary path millions of years ago).
I'm assuming that something like say 3 million years ago a sentient alien race was doing it's thing in the galaxy. Maybe back then this alien race found a great planet with these awesome little smart-monkeys. Maybe these other aliens took a bunch of monkeys and even bread them like we do dogs so there were hunting versions and all sorts of varieties. Over the resulting milennia as fashions changed and this race eventually went post-physical, one or two groups of these smart-monkey's were still around in the wilds of some worlds. Eventually most died off, but one group with red skin evolved for hunting survived on a jungle world... and of course the origin planet of the smart-monkeys is still out there somewhere. Something like that is entirely possible and can explain the similarities between humans and Guardians, and the differences.
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Happy birthday, this thread is running for one year today
O7,
[noob]
O7,
[noob]
Happy birthday, this thread is running for one year today
O7,
[noob]
Oh wow, thanks man, you're right!
How do we celebrate? I'd call up the Guardian catering service... but I heard they are quite hard to get hold of these days
Here's a human-crafted galaxy cake for everyone instead
You're right, but while convergent evolution is possible given a vast universe of evolutionary possibility and billions of years to happen, I don't believe that in our galaxy we'd meet (or almost meet) another alien race that's evolved completely independently of us and yet is so similar in so many ways - too many similarities to occur given what we know of evolutionary processes.
I think this is the part that really tells us what direction Fdev are thinking in (unless RT is totally lying
"But this new data contains one tantalising detail that stands out: their biochemistry was very similar to our own. They had blood in the same fashion as us, and it fulfilled exactly the same role as it does for us. Beyond this, they share a similar genetic structure, with DNA and RNA their core building blocks. Although a full analysis has not yet been conducted, this might be evidence of a common ancestor, but also of a branching in their genetic history. This is an astounding discovery!" - Biology 6
Just doing a bit of theorycrafting:
Assume then that there was a "first" alien race to evolve in our galaxy billions of years ago. Call them The First Ones. Like us, they eventually started terraforming suitable planets, expanded across the galaxy, etc. Once that happens, they significantly increase the chances of more life like them eventually evolving - they're skewing the odds hugely because they're increasing the number of chances that type of life has to evolve and reducing the chances for that type of life to be wiped out by natural disasters, and also if they're terraforming, they might well be wiping out any competing types of life and microbial life, etc. They're moving the odds very far away from random evolution into a much more narrow form of evolution that's already got a decent head start down a particular path. Assume they eventually spread across the whole galaxy - that's an immense number of potential sites for life to evolve (even if they only occupy as many worlds as us, that's significant).
The First Ones eventually died off, became post-physical, left the Galaxy, whatever, after however many thousands or millions of years. Chances are good that the next sentient race to evolve and not die off before reaching space would be from one of the ELW's seeded by the First ones. (it might not have been, but statistically it's likely).
That cycle could just keep repeating for billions of years. Life evolves continually - most of it would die off, but every few millennia you'd probably get a new form rising to sentience, and because of the First Ones, it's more likely to be from worlds seeded by then, so it'll be more likely to share some characteristics.
Something like this can explain how there's many ELW's with Earth-compatible life, and how the Guardians can be very much like us - and how we can share similar DNA. On earth, almost all higher life has two sexes and quite a big chunk is recognisable to us as "similar" (like, most mammals are human-like in a very broad sense, despite diverging from our own evolutionary path millions of years ago).
I'm assuming that something like say 3 million years ago a sentient alien race was doing it's thing in the galaxy. Maybe back then this alien race found a great planet with these awesome little smart-monkeys. Maybe these other aliens took a bunch of monkeys and even bread them like we do dogs so there were hunting versions and all sorts of varieties. Over the resulting milennia as fashions changed and this race eventually went post-physical, one or two groups of these smart-monkey's were still around in the wilds of some worlds. Eventually most died off, but one group with red skin evolved for hunting survived on a jungle world... and of course the origin planet of the smart-monkeys is still out there somewhere. Something like that is entirely possible and can explain the similarities between humans and Guardians, and the differences.
I'd rep, but out!
- Status