Casual Player Penalties FD Should Reconsider

[Hydrino]

Hi FD,

love this ED game.

But really, a lot of your ardent supporters are adults with children and careers and other demands and their play time is limited and desired to be for fun.

So it still really mystifies me why you choose penalizing mechanics as a game design choice.

I understand grind, sure that will exist in any game to give the initial sense of progression. Even classic board-games can be viewed as a grind to the end.

But you throw in these casual player penalties for what reason? It is after all just a game and you nerf Yaw to make it "fun". My play time is limited so I've only discovered this list but there may be more:

• Mission timers that make no sense
  • So I'm supposed to hold onto a data cache until target time 0:55.
  • Why isn't there a clock on my HUD so I know what time it is now, and so how long I have to hold the data?
  • Is this GMT time? Does FD actually expect me to translate my local time to Cambridge time? Is FD Towers the center of the universe?
  • Is this the number of minutes I need to hold the data? If so, why doesn't it show the initial time and a countdown timer?
  • Why if I exceed the time holding the data does the mission fail, when it says clearly someone will contact me after I have held the data- but not that the mission will fail if I do not respond within a certain time window or if I'm docked too long
• Mission timers that don't stop when I exit the game
  • So in this ED game the simulation ticks once a day, maybe twice? PowerPlay ticks once a week.
  • But Mission timers cannot be delayed!
  • I kid you not, I have failed 4 missions in a row because one of my kids threw up and I had to log off, a neighbor came over needing help, the wife demanded I stop for dinner with the family, and once I realized it was after midnight and I needed to sleep for work the next day and could not wait the hour still to go on holding the data.
  • These missions are not critical to the game, to the BGS or to anyone but the Pilot that took them
  • Why can't FD relax this burdensome rule and let me take a mission I want and then "pause" it when I have to log off
  • In game time versus real time works for this, maybe not for other parts of the game, but this I just don't get
• Reputation Decay
  • FD will sacrifice any aspect of "realism" for fun, such as Yaw
  • But NOT pointless reputation decay as a "realistic" mechanism
  • if I can't live in the game the in game RNG NPC's that aren't even persistent (maybe some of them changing with 2.1), and don't exist in my instance when I shut the game down, somehow get snotty and think I don't deserve the rep earned because it's been two weeks since I logged in
  • It is a game FD, not my life, what gives?
• No ship transport mechanic
  • I get a Viper with all A modules, kitted out the way I want
  • I decide I'd like an exploration ship or to just try something new
  • I store the Viper and proceed to fly about
  • A couple weeks later I want the Viper but it is 1,000 LY away and will take me 30-40 minutes of mindless jumping to get back to it
  • If I sell the Viper then I will have to spend weeks re-kitting it with the modules I've found at the random spots in the game (since in the future apparently no ship-yard stocks everything or can re-order out-of-stock items from Amazon 3300= see FD making something "fun" but not "realistic" again!)
  • make it magic like the transition to the SRV- I can call any ship I have for a cost based on distance, but after paying it will instantly be available in the starport where I am docked
  • It is just a game, realistic or not. Will be like Multi-crew- to be fun FD won't be able to force us to dock and load on the friends ship all the time, there will have to be "teleportation", immersion be darned
• Insta scans and insta-death USS
  • These could be bugs, but in the last week I have failed a mission due to a totally unavoidable scan- I turned on silent running and boosted with FA Off and all pips to engines as soon as it started but it was over in 2-3 seconds.
  • We need a scan timer GUI when we are the target just like when we are scanning another ship. It should graphically show us how complete the scan of our ship is- how much time we have to do something to disrupt it
  • Similarly, I dropped into a non-strong signal source while carrying a valuable data delivery and dropped right in the middle of 4 ships that started firing right away and was killed in seconds- and this was NPCs. Realistic maybe... I don't think they even had time to do a proper scan though. And I certainly had no chance to run, supercruise or fight

I think 2.1 will be amazing for the game and my enjoyment, but it would be even better if it addressed these points.

 

[CMDR Dumbfries]

I agree with most of your points, but what is your problem with Yaw? Is that a spelling error or something?

 

[Bacalao]

"Casual player penalties FD should reconsider", aka, "things I don't like about the game and some dodgy reasoning to back up my complaints".

There is nothing penalizing in these game features anymore than it is penalizing for you to lose out on coupon or sale savings because you stayed home instead of shopping. Some things need changing so they are more fun and engaging, but I enjoy a lot of the things on this list (like rep decay) because it adds to my game experience and enjoyment.

-A father of 3, 11hrs a day at work, ultramarathoner, tabletop game player, etc etc (we're all busy) aka, a filthy casual.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Smart Casual reporting in.

Sure, timers suck.
Taking those missions is a pain.
Don't do it.

UTC doesn't suck.
I live in Darwin Australia and so I'm Zulu plus 9:30

read that again: 9:30

Do you know how much the half hour offset eats a dead dog's xxxx?
But I don't kvetch about it.
Because UTC is what pilots live by.

Also my player group's chat server is hosted in Moscow so we're on "Maskva vreemier" Moscow Time.
Which is what the whole soviet union ran on across 9 timezones.

read that again: NINE timezones.

You live on a planet - it's round and the common time is UTC.

It's part of your immersion - soak it up.

 

[Vasious]

Time is Galactic Standard not GMT as it doesn't ships with daylight savings etc.
Everyone has to do some maths to convert the game time to their local time

The time for the missions listed in the Galactic Standard time, you can check the time in the system or Galaxy map, but I agree a HUD one is really needed.
The time listed in the clock time (so 0:55 is 55 minutes pas midnight Galactic standard no 55 minute countdown) you need to hold the goods until, once that time is reached then the mission should update with another window in which the NPC contact will be added to the RNG spawn table in the target system.
Miss that meeting
Mission clocks pausing on log out has come up a few times, my view is that's life, sometimes things don't go perfectly to plan, nothing happens that you cannot fix later.

Rep Decay is on the Major factions and stops at 75% so not really that harsh as it doesn't take that much an effort to get back to Allied

I have never experiences insta-death in Signal sources as I usually drop in with FA-OFF and Boost immediately, even SSS ambushes wont be able to react to you doing that

 

[AndiBcool]

Hmm i can only agree to the strong signal sorce thing. Same did happen to me in my Vulture and was the only time i lost a ship aside from a few times in starter sidewinder.

I think ED is really for casual players.
Missions? Do they matter to you?
I only did em when i started but most time i ignore them. If your short on time just dont do em. I make more money without doin missions anyway.
Timers make sense if that mission is blocked for other players for the time you have it.

I see some logic in reputation decay, you also loose negative reputation. So to be fair booth sides should loose some. It drops only to 75%, so its no big deal to regain.

Storing ships is nice, to move to the system where its stored seems realistic.
If you want to be flexibel get a multipurpose ship. Otherwise plan things you want to do. Yes some moving service would be nice, but i dont really have trouble to change ships.
In worst case its also easy to buy a ship nearby.

If you reduce thouse things you will have less to do and you might complain about it later.

For your time issues, i dont get it.
Have some clock to look at. There are timers in the transactions tab also.

 

[Hydrino]

Hahhaah coupon sale. That's a good one. Silly analogy that doesn't work. Try again. FD mantra is "Play your way", but some silly rule with no real purpose or value prevents me from "Playing my way" which means enjoying missions that may take a while (2.1 may have multi-step many hour missions), but not forcing me into stupid real-life decisions favoring sitting for 4 straight hours at my PC when I might never get such a stretch of time to play.

Yes I understand UTC time (thanks Vasious, for explaining and not just taking a sarcastic approach to that). I was being moronic for a reason- because the game really does need to be more clear and concise and include a dash-clock. Experience is a good teacher and to me has been part of the fun of the game, but this part I think should be improved.

It is fantastic that some persons can have 10 kids, work 14 hours a day, practice for a marathon 2 hours a day and still find time to take missions with timers. Amazing even! I salute these commanders. Probably they have also already circumnavigated the galaxy and gotten Triple-Elite! Some humans are just, well, super-human but I am not.

If a mission clock stops when I exit the game and starts when I log back in, I get the same challenge of sitting on a data cache for an hour of game-time as the person that didn't log off. The only difference is I am not penalized for not having 8 hour play sessions after my 12 hour work-day. Mission timer failures due to logging out are a penalty with zero purpose in the game world. If some players enjoy being forced to sit at their PC for 3 hours for no reason other than the game designer said to do it I think they are being silly, but your mileage may vary.

Rep decay stops at friendly. Why is rep decay while you are on vacation enjoyable? It might really be enjoyable to some, but I don't find any sense or purpose for it in a game. To me it is simply FD saying if you don't play the game a lot we will penalize you. That is not "Playing your way", that is "Playing FD's way" when the mechanic does nothing for the game. Obviously we can't "Play our way" for every single aspect of the game, but to me part of "my way" is being a casual player that still wants to enjoy missions and long-term progression without being slapped by game mechanics that are not serving any obvious purpose other than FD thinking it will make folks want to log in more often. In short is it a psychologically manipulative scheme without real game purpose.

does it decline in the first place? It's a silly time sink game. I don't have an issue with Yaw I was just pointing out FD nerfed Yaw movement in the game unrealistically, so stopping a mission timer unrealistically should not be a problem because of other unrealistic decisions and aspects of a game.

 

[Vasious]

With regards to mission timers, some of it might be just having the spare coding time to add the pause, since they align to the server clock.

I wonder what the new mission system will hold, might actually fix this, or it might not.

I do miss the very short time frames of the original missions in the Beta < 1.0 as you really had to burn it to get them down, but as you said, any real life distraction will fail you.

FDev have been adjusting things as they have gone along.
Missions can have very long time frames so you can skip a day or more for some, and certain missions allow you to fail and get a second chance to complete them or a lesser reward.

Certainly a work in balancing
Tight Time frame missions to push the player.
Long term missions to be completed at the players leisure.
Missions that the reward is a sliding scale on the speed of completion


Rep decay makes sense in that if you want to be allied with all three powers it will be a juggle to keep them all allied, but worst case they still like you.
I haven't been able to play for about a month, due to a variety of reasons, and Rep decay isn't a concern, as I more see it as once I can get back on the PC I will have a goal to work towards.
As minor factions don't forget, my Allied locals and PMF will offer up the lucrative missions to get be earning that rep and CRs

I don't think anyone would disagree with a HUD/Side panel Clock

 

[Bostlabs]

Oh I don't know. I think FD has things well in hand right now. A couple of things could use tweaking but all in all I'm cool with not making the game easier.

I think Rick says it best.
[video=youtube_share;6egiLH_ag8k]https://youtu.be/6egiLH_ag8k[/video]

 

[Caramel Clown]

Smart Casual reporting in.

Also my player group's chat server is hosted in Moscow so we're on "Maskva vreemier" Moscow Time.
Which is what the whole soviet union ran on across 9 timezones.

read that again: NINE timezones.

It's part of your immersion - soak it up.

Soviet Union didn't all run by Moscow time obsiously) Just a little off-topic.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

• Mission timers that make no sense
• Mission timers that don't stop when I exit the game
• Reputation Decay
• No ship transport mechanic
• Insta scans and insta-death USS

1) Yeah, mission timers are a little annoying. I think its an experiment to bring back the old Frontier style missions where you had to catch someone at a specific time. The problem is, in Frontier we had time dilation. We didn't have to wait long, we just sped up time. My guess is FD will either change or pull these missions. Perhaps just change them so you must meet a target BEFORE a specific time, or the mission fails, making speed the factor, not waiting.

2) I don't mind this one. I only take missions I can be sure of succeeding. Its an online game, time passes whether you are logged on or not.

3) Ah, rep decay. Its not bad you know and is even a positive thing if you are on the wrong side of the reputation (Hostile) as it decays to unfriendly over time. It doesn't affect minor factions, just the major ones, and once you are in a major factions good books, and are allied with a number of minor factions its easy to remain allied with the major faction as long as you remain loyal. If you split your loyalties, then your reputation will decay down to friendly. It never decays back to neutral. Its more or less a non-issue. Especially as missions are granted by minor factions, not major ones. Rep decay barely affects anyone. Bear in mind, while minor faction rep shouldn't decay naturally there have been reports that it does, and if so, its a bug. I've not noticed it myself.

4) No ship transportation mechanism has been a highly requested feature for a long time. Last time i heard something from FD on it was that they would consider it, but its not something likely to be implemented before 2.2 assuming they do it (at least that is what i recall).

5) Insta scans - yeah, definitely seems buggy those. Been lots of reports about them.

Sumamry:

1) Yeah, not great, avoid those missions.
2) Meh, just don't take missions you can't finish in time.
3) Not really an issue as it doesn't affect much
4) Might be coming at some point
5) Probably a bug that needs fixing.

 

[Bacalao]

Hahhaah coupon sale. That's a good one. Silly analogy that doesn't work. Try again. FD mantra is "Play your way", but some silly rule with no real purpose or value prevents me from "Playing my way" which means enjoying missions that may take a while (2.1 may have multi-step many hour missions), but not forcing me into stupid real-life decisions favoring sitting for 4 straight hours at my PC when I might never get such a stretch of time to play.

Yes I understand UTC time (thanks Vasious, for explaining and not just taking a sarcastic approach to that). I was being moronic for a reason- because the game really does need to be more clear and concise and include a dash-clock. Experience is a good teacher and to me has been part of the fun of the game, but this part I think should be improved.

<exaggerations to try to illustrate a really bad point and be funny>

If a mission clock stops when I exit the game and starts when I log back in, I get the same challenge of sitting on a data cache for an hour of game-time as the person that didn't log off. The only difference is I am not penalized for not having 8 hour play sessions after my 12 hour work-day. Mission timer failures due to logging out are a penalty with zero purpose in the game world. If some players enjoy being forced to sit at their PC for 3 hours for no reason other than the game designer said to do it I think they are being silly, but your mileage may vary.

Rep decay stops at friendly. Why is rep decay while you are on vacation enjoyable? It might really be enjoyable to some, but I don't find any sense or purpose for it in a game. To me it is simply FD saying if you don't play the game a lot we will penalize you. That is not "Playing your way", that is "Playing FD's way" when the mechanic does nothing for the game. Obviously we can't "Play our way" for every single aspect of the game, but to me part of "my way" is being a casual player that still wants to enjoy missions and long-term progression without being slapped by game mechanics that are not serving any obvious purpose other than FD thinking it will make folks want to log in more often. In short is it a psychologically manipulative scheme without real game purpose.

does it decline in the first place? It's a silly time sink game. I don't have an issue with Yaw I was just pointing out FD nerfed Yaw movement in the game unrealistically, so stopping a mission timer unrealistically should not be a problem because of other unrealistic decisions and aspects of a game.

Haha, all your post doesn't work because I said "haha". That's a good one.

I like rep decay, I like that the galaxy keeps ticking even when I, personally, am not in it. It adds to the suspension of disbelief when I'm playing. This isn't a game that revolves around me or you, it's just a big galaxy and I get to do stuff in it. Rep decay makes sense, you haven't done anything for these guys but they won't entirely forget you or start to hate you for no reason, you just aren't a very bright blip on their radar anymore. They don't care what you're doing, they just know that within the last few weeks (of their time), you haven't done anything. Go do a few mission and you'll get it all back. I mean, if getting rep were even an issue I suppose there might be a gripe but I only occasionally pass through imperial or alliance space and somehow manage to stay at some level of allied with them all the time...not that it means anything anyway. Minor faction rep is the only kind with a measurable effect on the gameplay and that doesn't decay (unfortunately), and is ridiculously easy to get.

There is a clock ticking away right next to the mission as you take it, btw, not sure how much more they can do for you there. I would like a clock visible in the cockpit because I think it should just be there, we put clocks on everything (wrists, phones, walls, microwaves, stoves, cars, bank signs, etc), why suddenly in 3302 do we not have them everywhere? But it isn't something that breaks my game.

I think the wait for contact mission timers need to be shortened, but this is their first iteration and it isn't as if they are the bulk of the missions being offered. If I happen to see one and happen to have time to do it, then I do, if not, no biggie. The game isn't broken because it doesn't fit my schedule all the time.

Overall you seem to be equating consequences with penalties. I like the game to have some consequences, it makes it fun. Sadly it has far too few.

 

[Gedemon]

Missions timers make sense.

They depend of the state of the system and they can affect the state of the system.

Being able to stack them then do them later when the system has changed it's state would unbalance the BGS.

No one can play 24h/24, everyone as to log off at some point, it s very easy to only take missions that you can do during your sessions.

 

[Mephane]

2) I don't mind this one. I only take missions I can be sure of succeeding. Its an online game, time passes whether you are logged on or not.

The OP specifically mentioned several cases where it was not a matter of poor planning in the first place. Things happen unexpectedly, things more important than any game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Missions timers make sense.

They depend of the state of the system and they can affect the state of the system.

Being able to stack them then do them later when the system has changed it's state would unbalance the BGS.

Just have missions not affect the BGS when they are beyond their original timer in real-time, but allow completion at the player's leisure. There, problem solved.

 

[777Driver]

Missions timers make sense.

They depend of the state of the system and they can affect the state of the system.

Being able to stack them then do them later when the system has changed it's state would unbalance the BGS.

That pretty much sums it up. Regarding a clock, we have a clock and date in the galmap & system map, a small clock on the HUD or side menu's would be a nice addition. In VR I use voice attack to read me the time, can't see how it is a problem for non VR users, can't you just look at your phone or a clock? Even my HOTAS displays current time & UTC.

The only way you can get insta killed is if you are flying a badly kitted out ship. Can't comment on insta scans, have never seen it happen, the bulk of my gaming is smuggling in the slowest ship in ED - Does anyone have a video of these insta scans?

 

[NeilF]

And of course there's the harshest punishment in the game, you lose potentially everything you've spend months working for, due to a simple oversight - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=162463

You'll get a warning if you're landing gear is not down or a weapon is not in a fire group... but not if you're accidentally risking months of effort...

 

[GammaZ]

Yes, real time mission timers... sure they make sense, but they are annoying. I mean this is why i do not do missions anymore. I do not know when real life will get in the way and i will have to exit the game, and i do not know when i will play it again. Neither i want to worry about some deadlines in some game, i have enough of those IRL. There need to be a possibility to exit the game at any moment without being penalized for it.

 

[777Driver]

And of course there's the harshest punishment in the game, you lose potentially everything you've spend months working for, due to a simple oversight - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=162463

You'll get a warning if you're landing gear is not down or a weapon is not in a fire group... but not if you're accidentally risking months of effort...

Lol seriously, if I drive my car with my handbrake on it warns me, if the door is open it warns me, I guess I should write to the manufacturer and complain that the vehicle doesn't have inbuilt out of date road tax and insurance warnings.. Or maybe not. Heck, next time I fly a circuit at biggin hill I'll ask the instructor why my Piper archer can give me gear/flap config warnings yet doesn't remind me that my medical is overdue.

 

[Privata]

Why should every single game out there bend over backwards for the casual market? I respect casuals but its scary how many games are being made boring , easy and shallow...
Even ArmA has gone done that road to a extent with A3 (still love it)

Elite is ment to be played as a life sim not a game... there is no end goal.

sorry if I sound agresive thats not my intent but I feel that elite being elite the game that used to hate players and do everything in its power to kill or just make you loose profit left right and center and everything else inbetween has gone very soft. the game needs more layers not less

 

[777Driver]

Yes, real time mission timers... sure they make sense, but they are annoying. I mean this is why i do not do missions anymore. I do not know when real life will get in the way and i will have to exit the game, and i do not know when i will play it again. Neither i want to worry about some deadlines in some game, i have enough of those IRL. There need to be a possibility to exit the game at any moment without being penalized for it.

From what I've seen the timers can range from 20 mins to 17 hours right up to a couple of days. As far as long range hauling goes, I'll take the short timers if I have time, or the 17 hour ones if I know I'm busy. It's not like the missions disappear if you don't select them. I've turned down plenty of of high paying missions because 2 hours is not enough time for me to get on with real life and come back to complete. No big deal, when I get home a new batch are waiting for me.