Casual POV about how grindy Engineers 2.0 might be

[MUSKETEER]

A casual gamer will have to do a minimum of 5 rolls, minimum 1 per level and probably more, to get a similar result to a single role as per the current system.

How does that lean towards an improvement for the casual gamer?

Edit:clarity

Now getting first G5 is not where people usually stop... they roll the dice again and again at G5 level and often get worse results than the first one. Until they eventually get something usable.

Having 5 rolls to get from G1 to G5 is nothing... seriously... nothing. And then we benefit from every G5 roll being better than previous one.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Exactly. This is another change that caters for the PvP god-roll crowd and is just a huge time-waste for anybody else.

If you want to engineer a Conda with 8 hardpoint, lot of modules and utilities, and you have to roll every module and every weapon from G1-G5, you will need hundreds of units of material and dozens of different materials.

i dont understand it either... how is this better?

for a Thruster mod of DDT you will need to have:
3x Specialiced legacy firmware
1x mech equipment
1x mech comp.
1x Chromium
1x config comp.
1x selenium
1x MCF
1x Cadmium
1x CIF
1x Pharma insulators

HOW IS THIS BETTER???

Now imagine doing this for 8 hardpoints and 20-30 modules. And that's only for 1 Anaconda. :S

Also, there are ways around it, it's just a huge waste of time.
Instead of engineering all your ships, you just engineer some modules for every class and swap the modules between ships whenever you change ships.

Big inconvenience, makes the game more clunky, but whatever.

 

[sgurr]

Now getting first G5 is not where people usually stop... they roll the dice again and again at G5 level and often get worse results than the first one. Until they eventually get something usable.

Having 5 rolls to get from G1 to G5 is nothing... seriously... nothing. And then we benefit from every G5 roll being better than previous one.

The OP is talking about a casual gamer though, someone who does stop after a single G5 roll. There are many, including myself on most modules, who do that single roll.

Whilst it seems like it's nothing on a standalone module having to do that on every module on every ship you want to engineer and suddenly you're at 5x a not insignificant effort of time to gather the mats.

and ninja'd by aguettinger

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Any fast tracking basically enables rat race and in fact encourages grinding because it is achievable. With gradual grading stretching out maximizing ship upgrades, it make it less likely.
…

Having to upgrade a module from grade 1 to grade 5 and then to an acceptable level is just going to make things more tedious.
Players will always try to get the best possible results.
The game is still designed in a way that having the best possible (or really good) result is almost mandatory, especially if the player knows that combat situations against other players are possible.

The proposed changes to engineers will solve some problems the system currently has and create new problems.

Being able to apply a grade 5 roll to a new module is not a problem of the current system.
The extreme differences between a un-modified ship and a g5 ship and the quite noticeable differences between a basic g5 and a "god roll" g5 mod is a problem. And this problem is not going away.

 

[Conch]

Exactly. This is another change that caters for the PvP god-roll crowd and is just a huge time-waste for anybody else.

If you want to engineer a Conda with 8 hardpoint, lot of modules and utilities, and you have to roll every module and every weapon from G1-G5, you will need hundreds of units of material and dozens of different materials.




Now imagine doing this for 8 hardpoints and 20-30 modules.

I rather not! This "solution" makes me cringe to the bone..

i like enginering where it is at the moment, altho it has a bit to much RNG. I can live with it.

 

[Kapow]

Now getting first G5 is not where people usually stop... they roll the dice again and again at G5 level and often get worse results than the first one. Until they eventually get something usable.

Having 5 rolls to get from G1 to G5 is nothing... seriously... nothing. And then we benefit from every G5 roll being better than previous one.

Do you really believe that it will be one roll per level? If FD has shown us anything it is their disdain for fast progress and a half broken attempt at slowing the progress where possible. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were 10-50 rolls per level....

 

[MadDogMurdock]

No. FD doesn't shy away from that and they have said they will change things radically if they feel it will benefit game.

That's why Beyond updates even exist.

Let's be honest - the proposed changes to Engineers are not radical at all.
There's nothing there that alters the fundamental Engineering mechanisms.

 

[sgurr]

...
Being able to apply a grade 5 roll to a new module is not a problem of the current system.
...

This ^^

I've said this elsewhere but have direct G5 and G1-G5 rolls in tandem. Make it a viable choice and incentivise G1-G5 for those that want the min/max modules.

Don't penalise those who just want a quick G5 mod they can currently do.

 

[MUSKETEER]

Maybe differences between G1 and G5 upgrades shouldn't be so big. That way casual players would be happy with G1.. and those who have time and materials to waste can go to G5 and try to get the best out of it.

 

[sgurr]

Maybe differences between G1 and G5 upgrades shouldn't be so big. That way casual players would be happy with G1.. and those who have time and materials to waste can go to G5 and try to get the best out of it.

That would work too

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Maybe differences between G1 and G5 upgrades shouldn't be so big. That way casual players would be happy with G1.. and those who have time and materials to waste can go to G5 and try to get the best out of it.

There's a reasonable argument that G1 is all there should have been in the first place.
Then Engineering would've been small tweaks rather than the massive uplifts that make G5 seem necessary and turn the game into a mat. grind

 

[galahad2069]

The trouble is the only reason the system is being changed is because it takes too long to prepare a pvp metaship under the current model, so anything that doesn't result in taking a lot less time to achieve a god ship will be beaten up badly by those that actually participate in serious engineering (and let's face it, who cares about those who are happy with average rolls, this change is not catering to them anyway).

They should just change materials gathering, this is not going to end well at all I believe, the current system would be fine if we got a few more rolls.

This^

I really do have a bad feeling about the planned changes (if they decide to do it the way it is generally speculated they will).

The main problem with engineers (IMO) is not that I need 100 CIFs to have a good chance to get a super DD5 roll. It's that it takes forever to farm that much of that goddamned piece of data. But the suggested material broker would pretty much solve that problem.

Also, it would be nice if experimental effects could be applied (and even changed) freely on existing weapons (without decreasing the unlock level of the engineer).

But if everyone is guaranteed to end up with the exact same module stats eventually, then what is the point in engineering? They might as well sell the engineered items at the outfitting screen.

 

[Conch]

Engineers is mostly a time investment.. and time is the most costly commodity in this game.

so should a casual obtain the same a die hard triple elite vet who puts silly amounts of time modding their ship??

 

[Abomination]

Only the initial few rolls will make it take a bit longer.
Instead of a one time huge upgrade (= fun) followed by dozens of bad ones (= frustration), you'll now get one upgrade after the other. Constantly. Guaranteed.

And I highly doubt, even in the old system, the most casual will only make one roll and forget about it.

Plus the material broker on top of that... I think we're good here.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Engineers is mostly a time investment.. and time is the most costly commodity in this game.

so should a casual obtain the same a die hard triple elite vet who puts silly amounts of time modding their ship??

I don't argue that casual should reach same level. However, as casual, I fly in same space with other (I play Open), and rat race forcing everyone doing maxing their ships out with Engineers impact everyone.

 

[Conch]

But if everyone is guaranteed to end up with the exact same module stats eventually, then what is the point in engineering? They might as well sell the engineered items at the outfitting screen.

Might aswell remove engineers althogether and buff all thrusters with a 40% increase of the optimal multiplier..

at least it became skill based again that way..

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Engineers is mostly a time investment.. and time is the most costly commodity in this game.

so should a casual obtain the same a die hard triple elite vet who puts silly amounts of time modding their ship??

Yes, as long as the ship balance is so broken as it currently is. Engineering widens the already huge gap between ships and the "god ships" in this game.

Engineers should have been about changing a ship to be able to do things it previously couldn't do.
Instead we got a system that made things even better for ships that where already good at something. Engineers didn't create variety of ships, they created must have modifications and cookie cutter ships.
The moment things are required they should be easily obtainable.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

i dont understand it either... how is this better?

for a Thruster mod of DDT you will need to have:
3x Specialiced legacy firmware
1x mech equipment
1x mech comp.
1x Chromium
1x config comp.
1x selenium
1x MCF
1x Cadmium
1x CIF
1x Pharma insulators

HOW IS THIS BETTER???

Selenium and Chromium are found the same places as Cadmium (mining / planet surfaces), so - with per-material storage limits - you can pick them up while looking for the Cadmium. A little bit of smart prospecting (or reading the inevitable "how2engineer.docx" where someone else tells you where to go) and you can look for all three on the same planet.

SLF and MCF are found at the same places as CIF (surface beacon scans) and much more frequently. Again, if we weren't busily throwing them all out now to make room for the CIF, we'd already have 100 of each anyway.

Mech Eq., Mech Comp and Config Comp are again all from the same source (degraded/encoded USS, though they show up in ship wreckage too) ... which you'll find several of while looking for the high-grade USS for the Pharma Isolators.

In other words... in the process of looking for the high-grade items, you'll be doing what you need to get all the intermediate materials too. If you do miss a few due to getting unlucky, well, the extras you picked up while looking for these bits can be traded in at the material broker.

This individual change, on it's own, if it's the only one they implement out of the whole proposal? Definitely not an improvement.
The proposal as a whole? Certainly an improvement for both hyper-optimisers and casuals [1]. I suspect on balance once the shock of things changing is over it also might be popular with the "I want G5 on several ships but don't care about god rolls" crowd too ... but that's going to depend on the details.

[1] Actual casual engineering users will have to be levelling up their engineer rep as they go anyway, so their first ship will have to go through the G1-G5 cycle on the bits even in the current system for most of its modules.

 

[Conch]

I don't argue that casual should reach same level. However, as casual, I fly in same space with other (I play Open), and rat race forcing everyone doing maxing their ships out with Engineers impact everyone.

Then the choice is easy, git gud or go to solo/private if you cant stand the differance..

just because you play casual, doesnt mean everyone else needs to bleed.

Sorry to be a bit rough, but this is close to my heart.
i spend allot of time modding..

 

[Conch]

Selenium and Chromium are found the same places as Cadmium (mining / planet surfaces), so - with per-material storage limits - you can pick them up while looking for the Cadmium. A little bit of smart prospecting (or reading the inevitable "how2engineer.docx" where someone else tells you where to go) and you can look for all three on the same planet.

SLF and MCF are found at the same places as CIF (surface beacon scans) and much more frequently. Again, if we weren't busily throwing them all out now to make room for the CIF, we'd already have 100 of each anyway.

Mech Eq., Mech Comp and Config Comp are again all from the same source (degraded/encoded USS, though they show up in ship wreckage too) ... which you'll find several of while looking for the high-grade USS for the Pharma Isolators.

In other words... in the process of looking for the high-grade items, you'll be doing what you need to get all the intermediate materials too. If you do miss a few due to getting unlucky, well, the extras you picked up while looking for these bits can be traded in at the material broker.

This individual change, on it's own, if it's the only one they implement out of the whole proposal? Definitely not an improvement.
The proposal as a whole? Certainly an improvement for both hyper-optimisers and casuals [1]. I suspect on balance once the shock of things changing is over it also might be popular with the "I want G5 on several ships but don't care about god rolls" crowd too ... but that's going to depend on the details.

[1] Actual casual engineering users will have to be levelling up their engineer rep as they go anyway, so their first ship will have to go through the G1-G5 cycle on the bits even in the current system for most of its modules.

Again, how is this better??

I only see a bigger time sink, with more micrmanagement..

it might be fun to casually do a module a night, but i do a whole ship on my fridays.. and still got time to test them out the same night.