Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader, Krait = Python... What's the point?

Of course it can't, I don't even know how it stacks up against the competition I just like how it flies.
Pitch, Role, Yaw, Acceleration, Deceleration, and Top Speed can all be quantified and numerically analysed to apply a quantitative measure indicating relative manoeuvrability. That quantitative measure is of questionable practical worth though in assessing how good a ship will be in player hands.
 
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Exactly I think the Krait handles like a dream and the python sucks. It's the python that's entirely worthless in my personal subjective opinion. I couldn't care less about the numbers.

I would never ask for the python to be removed though, as other people like it.



+1.
I was just doing canyon runs in my multirole Krait, simply because it handles so nicely.
You can almost permaboost with one pip to eng and it just rolls so effortlessly and smoothly.

There isn't a stat for how well it transitions.
The Python feels nothing at all like it.

I just put this one together yesterday, after unlocking the Guardian FSD booster.
https://s.orbis.zone/728
It will be my official multirole, assassination mission and mat gatherer.
And it will match my PVP build somewhat so the parity is nice.

I'll keep my mining Python and armed passenger build but they handle like bricks.
 
Well I can now feel free to enter this discussion, I bought a Krait last night :D Not sure why I bought it, just I have been making a lot of credits lately so I decided to spend some lol Current plans are to use it as a short range explorer, currently fitted out with both a vehicle and SLF bays, and a Size 6 fuel scoop (damn that thing is impressive, did buy an extra 5C fuel tank but I don't think I will need it and will use the space for something else).

Will I get rid of my Python: No, although to me, the Python is me least enjoyable ship to fly, I will keep it. It is my delivery truck, the best vehicle to do the missions I like doing in the game due to cargo capacity and medium pad access.

Will I get rid of my DBX: Big hell NO - but I will take out the vehicle bay and a few other things to increase it's jump range (currently around 51LY). The only time I will put the SRV back in is when I finally pull my finger out and do a Guardian run for the FSD booster because I have heard landing space is critical.

Will I get rid of my two Combat Ships (FdL and Vulture) - Nope again, spent a lot of time in both of those and like their combat abilities, so personal choice again, sticking with the two ships that seem to be designed solely for combat.

Will I get rid of my three speedsters (iCourier, iEagle and Clipper) - Nope I love using those for stacked data runs and just for the joy of lying them, simple as that.

Guess the point I am trying to make is with the ease of making credits, you can now make any ship specialised enough to perform most roles, I have decided to adopt the Krait into the role I perceive it is suitable for. The thing is, there is no perfect ship in the game that can exceed in everything, that is why I like the game so much, everyone has different preferences on what they like to strap to their butt, otherwise everyone would be flying the same ship and how boring would that be!
 
Pitch, Role, Yaw, Acceleration, Deceleration, and Top Speed can all be quantified and numerically analysed to apply a quantitative measure indicating relative manoeuvrability. That quantitively measure is of questionable practical worth though in assessing how good a ship will be in player hands.

Whether it fits you hands or not doesn't matter when deciding how different a ship is from another one.
 
The Python can be a mean one, but the Krait is plumb cruel. You might be able to stay on a Python's six; you won't stay on a Krait's six unless the pilot is a raw newbie. The Python is sedate, even majestic. The Krait Mk II is a jackrabbit on steroids. I've never seen a more capable combat craft and I've flown everything except the mini capital ships. About the best I've found (aside from the Krait Mk II) is the FAS, but it lacks the 3rd large hardpoint and therefore doesn't have as much punching power. That 3rd large mount can make a heck of a difference. But they handle just about the same. The FAS is a bit better at maneuvering, but with the the third large weapons mount of the Krait, it just about evens out. There's always going to be tradeoffs.
 
Whether it fits you hands or not doesn't matter when deciding how different a ship is from another one.
It is not about "fits your hands" as you put it, it is about practical application of any given vessel - not everything that is important is covered by the numbers.

My point was metrics are on the most part only useful to a point, you can not judge a ship purely by it's stats.
 
Which I don't think you guys have shown.
You still don't get it - there is no metric that can adequately quantify the differences between the ships. This is not something that can be shown.

You can spreadsheet theory craft all you like but there is nothing that can replace hard experience and practical trials.

To use a real world example: If numbers could define everything, there would be no need for test pilots or test flights in general.
 
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You still don't get it - there is no metric that can adequately quantify the differences between the ships. This is not something that can be shown.

You can spreadsheet theory craft all you like but there is nothing that can replace hard experience and practical trials.

To use a real world example: If numbers could define everything, there would be no need for test pilots or test flights in general.

The flaw on this idea is that how "different" the ship might feel to some is subjective so no concensus can be made by simply trials, hence, I rather use numbers.
 
I did see that the Krait has 3 Lys more JR than the Python EDCD.
So you don't actually know how to fit ships and only look at stock stats. Gotcha. No wonder you're having so many issues here.

Your contention was proof the Krait coukd rise to 5th in jump range. It can.

The flaw on this idea is that how "different" the ship might feel to some is subjective so no concensus can be made by simply trials, hence, I rather use numbers.
And ignore that several numbers are not present such as lateral thrust performance, acceleration, agility loss at speed extremes, sense of momentum and inertia, etc. To suggest the visible stats tell a whole picture is to eroneously assume all other aspects of movement are the same if a given stat is similar.
 
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So you don't actually know how to fit ships and only look at stock stats. Gotcha. No wonder you're having so many issues here.

And ignore that several numders are not present such as lateral thrust performance, acceleration, agility loss at speed extremes, sense of momentum and inertia, etc. To suggest the visible stats tell a whole picture is to eroneously assume all other aspects of movement are the same if a given stat is similar.

I know Derp, this will surprise you as we normally don't see things in the game the same way, but Repped, fully agree with you here.

To me at least, it doesn't matter what the numbers and stats say, if I enjoy flying a specific ship that is all that matters. For example, I bought a Keelback when everyone seemed to have one and is the only ship I have sold after only a couple of flights, just did not enjoy flying it - simple as that. And a lot of this comes down to personal preference, how you like the view from the seat, what type of weapons you use, what is YOUR intended role for the ship, even if you like the sound the engine makes when you boost.

If a player is basing his ship selection solely on facts and figure, there is no guarantee he will actually like their purchase and that will normally result in someone jumping on the forum to pour yet another river of salt on the game.
 
Krait is sooo not = Python.

It has one less Class 6, but it can fit an SLF. That might not seem like much, but it's a major practical difference between the two. If they were the same, I wouldn't use both under different conditions...

(And if you happen to fit an SLF to the Krait, then the Krait is a Python now with *two* less Class 6 slots)
 
The flaw on this idea is that how "different" the ship might feel to some is subjective so no concensus can be made by simply trials, hence, I rather use numbers.
There is a name for that condition you are suffering from - the Osterich manoeuvre. You really need to keep your head out of the proverbial sand (in this case numbers). ;)

House of Derp adequately covered my point I think, but even when the numerical values they have indicated are available the numbers still do not serve as indisputable discriminators.

Have you ever seen or flown a Krait in game?

My guess is not in either case otherwise you would know that they are two distinct ships (this is also assuming you have seen or flown a Python too) despite any apparent similarities from purely a spreadsheet perspective.

Let's look at the non-subjective differences:-
  • Krait is faster and lighter with a slightly higher jump range
  • Krait can accommodate 1 additional crew member over the Python (absence of ability to use more than 1 NPC crew member is still grating but moot in this context)
  • Krait has SLF capability while the Python does not
  • Krait has a lower hull hardness rating
  • Krait has a lesser optional slot configuration on balance - meaning less total potential cargo space and a lower number of slots
  • The models and cockpits are different
  • Non-subjective factors about pilot chair visibility cones/arcs means the Krait has greater degree of visibility of the environment
  • Non-subjective factors about model design means the Krait presents a thinner/flatter profile in head/tail-on combat circumstances
Now for some subjective differences:-
  • Krait handles better than the Python
  • Krait is better in combat than the Python
  • Krait has better visibility of the environment from the Pilot's chair than the Python does
  • Python is better at multirole than the Krait (from a general capability perspective)

Even in the case of subjective comparisons, there can still be consensus. In the case of comparisons on a numerical basis, people can still debate the significance of specific values. In both cases, there is at least a degree of subjective assessment and room for lack of consensus.
 
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sollisb

Banned
There is a name for that condition you are suffering from - the Osterich manoeuvre. You really need to keep your head out of the proverbial sand (in this case numbers). ;)

House of Derp adequately covered my point I think, but even when the numerical values they have indicated are available the numbers still do not serve as indisputable discriminators.

Have you ever seen or flown a Krait in game?

My guess is not in either case otherwise you would know that they are two distinct ships (this is also assuming you have seen or flown a Python too) despite any apparent similarities from purely a spreadsheet perspective.

Let's look at the non-subjective differences:-
  • Krait is faster and lighter with a slightly higher jump range
  • Krait can accommodate 1 additional crew member over the Python (absence of ability to use more than 1 NPC crew member is still grating but moot in this context)
  • Krait has SLF capability while the Python does not
  • Krait has a lower hull hardness rating
  • Krait has a lesser optional slot configuration on balance - meaning less total potential cargo space and a lower number of slots
  • The models and cockpits are different
  • Non-subjective factors about pilot chair visibility cones/arcs means the Krait has greater degree of visibility of the environment
  • Non-subjective factors about model design means the Krait presents a thinner/flatter profile in head/tail-on combat circumstances
Now for some subjective differences:-
  • Krait handles better than the Python
  • Krait is better in combat than the Python
  • Krait has better visibility of the environment from the Pilot's chair than the Python does
  • Python is better at multirole than the Krait (from a general capability perspective)

Even in the case of subjective comparisons, there can still be consensus. In the case of comparisons on a numerical basis, people can still debate the significance of specific values. In both cases, there is at least a degree of subjective assessment and room for lack of consensus.


I think :) You're falling into your own 'use of spreadsheet' to justify? While the Krait is a better medium combat ship, the Python (in my opinion) is way, way better at combat and everything else. As an example, I bought a krait yesterday (2nd one) and engineered it for the HazRez. Shields/Drives/Power/Multis and went to the HazRez. It flies good and has nice firepower and but I never felt safe. Soon as I went up against a Deadly or Elite Wing, I felt very vulnerable. In my combat Python, I never feel this. But... I know my python, I've had for years, so there maybe something in that. The challenger is to me, meh.

It's horses for courses, everyone has their favourites. The 'numbers' while indicative of possibility, will never take into account, player ability and choice.
 
I think :) You're falling into your own 'use of spreadsheet' to justify?
Not really, just trying to spell out at least some of the quantifiable reasons why the Python and Krait are different vessels for the benefit of Flowey.

While the Krait is a better medium combat ship, the Python (in my opinion) is way, way better at combat and everything else. As an example, I bought a krait yesterday (2nd one) and engineered it for the HazRez. Shields/Drives/Power/Multis and went to the HazRez. It flies good and has nice firepower and but I never felt safe. Soon as I went up against a Deadly or Elite Wing, I felt very vulnerable. In my combat Python, I never feel this. But... I know my python, I've had for years, so there maybe something in that.
Personally, I have never really felt safe in the Python but that is possibly in part because I built it for mining rather than combat. If I wanted to engage in mining in relative safety then I would probably err towards the Anaconda and would not even consider the Krait for it.

The challenger is to me, meh.
I have bought a Challenger, kitted it out and trialled it but prefer the Krait on balance. I can still see utility in the Challenger and think it does not truly eclipse the Chieftain. I will reserve judgement on the Crusader but if FD balance it like I believe they will have then it will probably sit in the hangar most of the time.

It's horses for courses, everyone has their favourites. The 'numbers' while indicative of possibility, will never take into account, player ability and choice.
Agreed - and this is at least part of the point I have been trying to get across but some in these forums seem to keep trying to use pure "numbers" to argue against the addition of any given ship (or ships).
 
The flaw on this idea is that how "different" the ship might feel to some is subjective so no concensus can be made by simply trials, hence, I rather use numbers.

Not everyones into min-maxing. Some of my fav weapons are suboptimal, the stats take a backseat to fun which is entirely subjective and unquantifiable.
 
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