Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader, Krait = Python... What's the point?

[Shinji Ikari]

So you don't actually know how to fit ships and only look at stock stats. Gotcha. No wonder you're having so many issues here.

Your contention was proof the Krait coukd rise to 5th in jump range. It can.

I do know how to outfit ships, I just stripped down until I only had a fuel scoop & both sensor and then made lightweight mods on what I could. I will not do that however with yet more ships just to be sure that the Krait has the 5th best jump range.

And ignore that several numbers are not present such as lateral thrust performance, acceleration, agility loss at speed extremes, sense of momentum and inertia, etc. To suggest the visible stats tell a whole picture is to eroneously assume all other aspects of movement are the same if a given stat is similar.

All of those can also be measured even if they aren't present in the outfitting menu.

 

[Dunkz17]

I'm with you on this. To me it seems like a way for Frontier to keep getting more revenue from people buying new skins for the ships. I only just finished fitting out my Challenger. I don't see any reason to now repeat the process again with a similar ship. (And no, I didn't buy a skin for my Challenger haha)

 

[Shinji Ikari]

There is a name for that condition you are suffering from - the Osterich manoeuvre. You really need to keep your head out of the proverbial sand (in this case numbers).

I may have given you rep for such a complete list of aspects but this just dropped the ball.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Not everyones into min-maxing. Some of my fav weapons are suboptimal, the stats take a backseat to fun which is entirely subjective and unquantifiable.

Fun is not something you can use to differentiate ships.

 

[Stigbob]

Fun is not something you can use to differentiate ships.

Krait MkII=fun and a keeper.
Python=not fun sell that volvo.

Seems that you can.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Krait MkII=fun and a keeper.
Python=not fun sell that volvo.

Seems that you can.

Python=Fun
Krait=(Likely) fun

So there's no difference there for me, that's what I mean.

 

[lenna]

I do know how to outfit ships, I just stripped down until I only had a fuel scoop & both sensor and then made lightweight mods on what I could. I will not do that however with yet more ships just to be sure that the Krait has the 5th best jump range.

Not sure if this is 100% accurate but...

According to Coriolis. Krait Mk II is technically ranked joint 8th (level with the Asp Scout according to the basic summary table) in terms of maximum base non-engineered and non-Guardian boosted jump range.

The top 8/9 ships are:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 41.61 according to build but 41.8 according to table
2. Anaconda at 39.96 according to build but 41.4 according to table
3. Asp Explorer at 38.01 according to build but 38.2 according to table
4. Hauler at 37.29 according to build but 37.3 according to table
5. Orca at 35.80 according to build but 36.2 according to table
6. Dolphin at 35.10 according to build but 35.2 according to table
7. Courier at 33.32 according to build but 33.7 according to table
8. Krait at 33.11 according to build but 33.2 according to table
9. Asp Scout at 32.90 according to build but 33.2 according to table

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 29.61 without a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

With the largest Guardian FSD Booster that changes to:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 50.64
2. Anaconda at 50.35
3. Asp Explorer at 48.33
4. Orca at 46.14
5. Dolphin at 44.01
6. Krait at 43.47
7. Asp Scout at 43.11
8. Hauler at 42.86
9. Courier at 40.16

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 39.99 with a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

Of course, all of these builds are without Engineering factors and that could shake the list up again. The Hauler/Courier positions are tentative - I see little point in this kind of theory crafting personally to waste any more time on it than I already have.

At the nub of the problem here is that we are dependent on the tools providing accurate information and as shown above there are discrepancies in the available data which means that one or more of the numbers could be wrong. Not only that but these builds would be of questionable value since they do not include a fuel scoop (which could effect power plant choice and therefore weight) nor exploration scanners (which would add weight) great for proving some min-max theory craft but an abysmal basis for practical application.

Moral of the story: Only a fool would trust in numbers alone before drawing final conclusions.

All of those can also be measured even if they aren't present in the outfitting menu.

Maybe but you are ignoring the point that assessment of numerical values is a subjective matter especially where ship comparisons are concerned, there is no such thing as a universal consensus in the ship comparison context.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Not sure if this is 100% accurate but...

According to Coriolis. Krait Mk II is technically ranked joint 8th (level with the Asp Scout according to the basic summary table) in terms of maximum base non-engineered and non-Guardian boosted jump range.

The top 8/9 ships are:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 41.61 according to build but 41.8 according to table
2. Anaconda at 39.96 according to build but 41.4 according to table
3. Asp Explorer at 38.01 according to build but 38.2 according to table
4. Hauler at 37.29 according to build but 37.3 according to table
5. Orca at 35.80 according to build but 36.2 according to table
6. Dolphin at 35.10 according to build but 35.2 according to table
7. Courier at 33.32 according to build but 33.7 according to table
8. Krait at 33.11 according to build but 33.2 according to table
9. Asp Scout at 32.90 according to build but 33.2 according to table

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 29.61 without a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

With the largest Guardian FSD Booster that changes to:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 50.64
2. Anaconda at 50.35
3. Asp Explorer at 48.33
4. Orca at 46.14
5. Dolphin at 44.01
6. Krait at 43.47
7. Asp Scout at 43.11
8. Hauler at 42.86
9. Courier at 40.16

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 39.99 with a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

Of course, all of these builds are without Engineering factors and that could shake the list up again. The Hauler/Courier positions are tentative - I see little point in this kind of theory crafting personally to waste any more time on it than I already have.

At the nub of the problem here is that we are dependent on the tools providing accurate information and as shown above there are discrepancies in the available data which means that one or more of the numbers could be wrong. Not only that but these builds would be of questionable value since they do not include a fuel scoop, great for proving some min-max theory craft but an abysmal basis for practical application.

Moral of the story: Only a fool would trust in numbers alone before drawing final conclusions.

Moral of the story, you ended up using number to show how numbers are useful.

Maybe but you are ignoring the point that assessment of numerical values is a subjective matter especially where ship comparisons are concerned, there is no such thing as a universal consensus in the ship comparison context.

There's no number that will tell you which ship is better or worse but the stats give clues on which scenarios you're on the lucky side of things and on which ones you aren't and at least that's more precise than "My ship is fun."

 

[lenna]

Moral of the story, you ended up using number to show how numbers are useful.

In short - all of that was a complete waste of time, the numbers themselves (in this case) are largely worthless in essence since their level of trust is tainted by potentially flawed data either available to or presented by the tool.

It does serve to prove the basic principles behind the original comment HouseOfDerp was making though given the availability of certain upgrades.

It also serves as a prime example why numbers in general should never be taken on face value.

There's no number that will tell you which ship is better or worse but the stats give clues on which scenarios you're on the lucky side of things and on which ones you aren't and at least that's more precise than "My ship is fun."

No one disputes that the ship stats can be useful BUT all this started when certain individuals started to claim equality between the ships mentioned in the title based purely on a handful of numbers and loaded with false preconceptions - the reality is that it is far from the truth including in the case of the Krait and the Python.

No-one should have to waste the kind of time I have pointing out the flaws in this general assertion.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

In short - all of that was a complete waste of time, the numbers themselves (in this case) are largely worthless in essence since their level of trust is tainted by potentially flawed data either available to or presented by the tool.

It does serve to prove the basic principles behind the original comment HouseOfDerp was making though given the availability of certain upgrades.

It also serves as a prime example why numbers in general should never be taken on face value.

I did know the numbers in third party tools aren't exact but they are in an acceptable margin of error IMO.

No one disputes that the ship stats can be useful BUT all this started when certain individuals started to claim equality between the ships mentioned in the title based purely on a handful of numbers and loaded with false preconceptions - the reality is that it is far from the truth including in the case of the Krait and the Python.

No-one should have to waste the kind of time I have pointing out the flaws in this general assertion.

I didn't claim equality, I claimed similarity.

 

[lenna]

I did know the numbers in third party tools aren't exact but they are in an acceptable margin of error IMO.

Debatable and subjective on that score... but my point still stands that ship stats should never be taken on face value.

I didn't claim equality, I claimed similarity.

And I think that several of us have collectively adequately proven that your "similarity" claim is fundamentally flawed as a basis for objecting to the Krait being in-game. You are way too focused on the available stats and in doing so are ignoring other factors of arguably greater worth and value.

No statistic can tell you if the Krait is going to be of value to you if you personally like the Python, or visa versa. This is like the usual ship v. ship debates in these forums, spreadsheet warriors trying to assert that some numerical statistic proves point A or point B while ignoring the myriad of other factors involved (some quantifiable in a numerical sense and others not).

 

[TigerTen]

Sticking with my PYTHON ...

 

[comdr0303]

Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader....these are tank names from a past era, we on the other hand have ships.
I can understand snake names, and i like them alot...but the "krait" ?! Let's be honest, it should be "crate" instead lol.
We have far to many ships now, just like in RL far to many car manufacterers that produce the same cancers.
We had all the ships we needed, wa had just to add/remove things from them...and that is where a modding com. steps in.

 

[lenna]

Sticking with my PYTHON ...

You do know that you can own more than one ship and switch between them based on desired activity and/or circumstance?

Not that I personally care either way whether you get/use the Krait or not but the Krait is worth being given a chance.

 

[comdr0303]

Sticking with my PYTHON ...

+1 Love the design & sound, just like the viper mk4

 

[Vardaugas]

If nothing else, it adds more variety to the NPC traffic.

 

[Stigbob]

Python=Fun
Krait=(Likely) fun

So there's no difference there for me, that's what I mean.

If you haven't tried the Krait you wouldn't be able to decide, I've tried both and the python is one of my least favorite ships.

 

[lenna]

Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader....these are tank names from a past era, we on the other hand have ships.
I can understand snake names, and i like them alot...but the "krait" ?! Let's be honest, it should be "crate" instead lol.
We have far to many ships now, just like in RL far to many car manufacterers that produce the same cancers.
We had all the ships we needed, wa had just to add/remove things from them...and that is where a modding com. steps in.

I hope FD never open the player developed ship and/or weapon "modding" door, that is too open for exploitation and cheating.

The Krait has it's foundations in Elite lore - the Krait Mk II in ED may not be the light fighter from the older Elite games but it is still a worthwhile addition. It has been a long standing gripe amongst some of the community that the Python did not have an alternative and the Krait itself has been pending introduction into ED for quite a while.

As for the Chieftain/Challenger/Crusader, some have also been asking for Alliance faction ships and these serve that purpose.

The Panther Clipper is also a ship that many have been asking for and I would not completely rule out it being added at some point in the future.

 

[fus roh potato]

The ASP scout doesn't = anything, so nobody uses it. Why even have it in the game at all if it's meaningless?

That's why Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Fun is not something you can use to differentiate ships.

Baloney.
Try saying the same thing about cars.
Surfboards are also a great example, but most people are not familiar with those.
You can have a car with superior numbers that is not as fun to drive, and it may even lose out in real world performance, racing etc.

Consider if car A is faster to accelerate and has a higher skidpad rating, but drives twitchy and breaks free unpredictably; and car B which can't hold quite as much lateral force is stable, and breaks free smoothly, you'll probably be faster, less fatigued and have more fun driving car B.

The Python turns very "linear" and jerkily.
The Krait turns very, very smoothly.


There are also several of you that are wrong about something btw.
Subjective, qualitative data can be analyzed.

See: Likert Scale/Item, Thematic analysis, anything about pain and so on.

It's basically when enough people come to the same conclusion from an experience; kind of like Krait vs Python!
There will be outliers of course.
That even goes for pain.