Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader, Krait = Python... What's the point?

[House0fDerp]

Not sure if this is 100% accurate but...

According to Coriolis. Krait Mk II is technically ranked joint 8th (level with the Asp Scout according to the basic summary table) in terms of maximum base non-engineered and non-Guardian boosted jump range.

The top 8/9 ships are:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 41.61 according to build but 41.8 according to table
2. Anaconda at 39.96 according to build but 41.4 according to table
3. Asp Explorer at 38.01 according to build but 38.2 according to table
4. Hauler at 37.29 according to build but 37.3 according to table
5. Orca at 35.80 according to build but 36.2 according to table
6. Dolphin at 35.10 according to build but 35.2 according to table
7. Courier at 33.32 according to build but 33.7 according to table
8. Krait at 33.11 according to build but 33.2 according to table
9. Asp Scout at 32.90 according to build but 33.2 according to table

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 29.61 without a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

With the largest Guardian FSD Booster that changes to:-

1. Diamondback Explorer at 50.64
2. Anaconda at 50.35
3. Asp Explorer at 48.33
4. Orca at 46.14
5. Dolphin at 44.01
6. Krait at 43.47
7. Asp Scout at 43.11
8. Hauler at 42.86
9. Courier at 40.16

The Python for comparison purposes maxes out at 39.99 with a Guardian FSD Booster according to build.

Of course, all of these builds are without Engineering factors and that could shake the list up again. The Hauler/Courier positions are tentative - I see little point in this kind of theory crafting personally to waste any more time on it than I already have.

At the nub of the problem here is that we are dependent on the tools providing accurate information and as shown above there are discrepancies in the available data which means that one or more of the numbers could be wrong. Not only that but these builds would be of questionable value since they do not include a fuel scoop (which could effect power plant choice and therefore weight) nor exploration scanners (which would add weight) great for proving some min-max theory craft but an abysmal basis for practical application.

Moral of the story: Only a fool would trust in numbers alone before drawing final conclusions.


Maybe but you are ignoring the point that assessment of numerical values is a subjective matter especially where ship comparisons are concerned, there is no such thing as a universal consensus in the ship comparison context.

You can actually push further with jump ranges through some lightweight engineering on top of FSD engineering. And further still with engine focused PDs allowing the krait to boost with a 1D PD on a 2D overcharged PP. Grand total being 61.54 ly on a full tank of fuel.

I think I messed up on the dolphin fitting at some point and forgot to do something with one of the mods.

All of those can also be measured even if they aren't present in the outfitting menu.

But you aren't operating with those values in mind if all you're using is the fitting screen or tools that draw their data from it. The presence of an incomplete set of stats doesn't create a complete picture. And the fact that those numbers exists doesn't counter the fact that you don't know them.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Fun is not something you can use to differentiate ships.

Fun is the main reason why I use a ship.

Python - not fun.
Krait - fun.
FDS - a lot of fun with added fun

That's indisputable truth!




Really the Python has a fun index* of 1.3, the Krait has a fun index of 1.9 and the FDS has a fun index of 2.3.


*) completely made up and non linear measurement of fun

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Fun is the main reason why I use a ship.

Python - not fun.
Krait - fun.
FDS - a lot of fun with added fun

That's indisputable truth!




Really the Python has a fun index* of 1.3, the Krait has a fun index of 1.9 and the FDS has a fun index of 2.3.


*) completely made up and non linear measurement of fun

We could just use this

Imo, for fun:
Krait =1
Python = 7/8
FGS, Courier = 2
FDL, Vulture = 3

Something like the Cutter can be a 1 or a 10!

 

[Genus]

[h=2]Challenger = Chieftain = Crusader, Krait = Python... What's the point?[/h]

Shorter delivery times, with less resource requirement.

 

[BluStar]

there is no point just placeholder reasons, making modification of ship is easier than making a completely new one

 

[Genus]

there is no point just placeholder reasons, making modification of ship is easier than making a completely new one

Which explains all the clones, in place of the missing ships.

 

[House0fDerp]

there is no point just placeholder reasons, making modification of ship is easier than making a completely new one

No, an asset you intend to have stay in game isn't a placeholder. The generic utility models we used to have which were later replaced with actual models were placeholders.

Which explains all the clones, in place of the missing ships.

Considering the creation of Chieftain hull variants required the creation of the Chieftain from scratch to clone I'm not sure your logic works out there. They could have just as easily revived an old design as they made the Chief to begin with. Possibly a bit less as they'd have more of a conceptual starting point.

 

[Genus]

Considering the creation of Chieftain hull variants required the creation of the Chieftain from scratch to clone I'm not sure your logic works out there. They could have just as easily revived an old design as they made the Chief to begin with. Possibly a bit less as they'd have more of a conceptual starting point.

But then....tweaking the handling spreadsheet between the Type9's, Type6's, Type7's, FAS/FDS/FGS, the Eagles and the Chieftains is more within the MO.

The overhead is in having to design 14 hulls, instead of what is essentially just 5, some ship kits....and that spoiler (which must have taken 30 seconds).

The Cobra IV is obviously exempt from this debate

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/

 

[House0fDerp]

But then....tweaking the handling spreadsheet between the Type9's, Type6's, Type7's, FAS/FDS/FGS and the Chieftains is more within the MO.

The overhead is in having to design 13 hulls, instead of what is essentially just 5 (and a spoiler).

Certainly having variants helps the workload, which I fundamentally have no issue with since we're supposed to be using old designs anyways and over time those designs should breed specialized variants for lack of a new hull altogether.

So the question becomes, "Did you want 4 ships the season or 2?"

And even with variants you'd need to gloss over 2 unique hulls being created this season to say they output nothing wholly new in that time.

 

[Genus]

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/

And even with variants you'd need to gloss over 2 unique hulls being created this season to say they output nothing wholly new in that time.

It certainly makes me wonder what they did the month after that.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

If you haven't tried the Krait you wouldn't be able to decide, I've tried both and the python is one of my least favorite ships.

Well, I do know people that enjoy both ships, in fact, some forum users in the thread have expressed this so the point stands.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

And I think that several of us have collectively adequately proven that your "similarity" claim is fundamentally flawed as a basis for objecting to the Krait being in-game. You are way too focused on the available stats and in doing so are ignoring other factors of arguably greater worth and value.

No statistic can tell you if the Krait is going to be of value to you if you personally like the Python, or visa versa. This is like the usual ship v. ship debates in these forums, spreadsheet warriors trying to assert that some numerical statistic proves point A or point B while ignoring the myriad of other factors involved (some quantifiable in a numerical sense and others not).

This discussion is fundamentally subjective in that some may say the Krait is different enough, it just so happens that I think those differences aren't enough, you guys say they are enough. None of us can prove anything since this depends on the question, How different does a ship needs to be to be a different ships?

Baloney.
Try saying the same thing about cars.
Surfboards are also a great example, but most people are not familiar with those.
You can have a car with superior numbers that is not as fun to drive, and it may even lose out in real world performance, racing etc.

Consider if car A is faster to accelerate and has a higher skidpad rating, but drives twitchy and breaks free unpredictably; and car B which can't hold quite as much lateral force is stable, and breaks free smoothly, you'll probably be faster, less fatigued and have more fun driving car B.

The Python turns very "linear" and jerkily.
The Krait turns very, very smoothly.


There are also several of you that are wrong about something btw.
Subjective, qualitative data can be analyzed.

See: Likert Scale/Item, Thematic analysis, anything about pain and so on.

It's basically when enough people come to the same conclusion from an experience; kind of like Krait vs Python!
There will be outliers of course.
That even goes for pain.

I've watched maingear a couple of times & I'm sure they don't use "Fun" to compare cars, they give some stats & put them in the test track.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

But you aren't operating with those values in mind if all you're using is the fitting screen or tools that draw their data from it. The presence of an incomplete set of stats doesn't create a complete picture. And the fact that those numbers exists doesn't counter the fact that you don't know them.

Well maybe now I'm convinced there are more differences.

 

[Ethaidan]

I've watched maingear a couple of times & I'm sure they don't use "Fun" to compare cars, they give some stats & put them in the test track.

Really? Not often enough to get the name of the show correct, or recognize that how 'fun' a car is to drive is one of the most common recurring themes at the end of each episode when the three stooges argue over which car they drove was better. You're troll mask is slipping.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Really? Not often enough to get the name of the show correct, or recognize that how 'fun' a car is to drive is one of the most common recurring themes at the end of each episode when the three stooges argue over which car they drove was better. You're troll mask is slipping.

Well, one must say it's a comedy show so they do make silly stuff with the cars tho they rank them on their loop times...

 

[lenna]

How different does a ship needs to be to be a different ships?

That is objectively provable - one statistic or feature is all it takes.

If that aint enough of a difference for you personally, then tough - it is objectively provable as being true. Since you want to avoid subjective assessment then the number of actual differences is moot beyond the count of one.

It is objectively provable (and has been proven) that the Python and Krait are VERY distinct ships both in terms of looks and objective performance.

 

[Vardaugas]

That is objectively provable - one statistic or feature is all it takes.

If that aint enough of a difference for you personally, then tough - it is objectively provable as being true.

It is objectively provable (and has been proven) that the Python and Krait are VERY distinct ships both in terms of looks and objective performance.

Yep. "Different" starts with a pixel. When it starts to count as different is highly subjective and up for debate.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

That is objectively provable - one statistic or feature is all it takes.

If that aint enough of a difference for you personally, then tough - it is objectively provable as being true.

It is objectively provable (and has been proven) that the Python and Krait are VERY distinct ships both in terms of looks and objective performance.

I don't think we talk about nerfed version of our ships as different ships yet they are different.

 

[lenna]

I don't think we talk about nerfed version of our ships as different ships yet they are different.

They are not different essentially because in ED terms the original does not exist - tweaking of existing ships for balancing reasons between revisions of the game environment is irrelevant to the matter at hand though.