News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Marc_Hicks]

Thanks Adam, it’s good to know you guys are still reading the plethora of feedback on this.

As to my own feedback, personally I like everything Frontier proposed for the exploration improvements with the following exceptions:

• The ADS honk revealing only the main star is not useful enough. It would be nice if it provided more information than that, but still less than the honk has for the past four years. Ideally I’d like to see it reveal the system structure only with the grey globes representing the planets. At least this would allow the explorer to quickly see how interesting a system layout is, while also showing if anything is tagged by other commanders too.
• The probes mechanic sounds great with one exception: I don’t like how they pinpoint the exact location of POI’s. I’d much rather have the probes reveal small manageable search zones for POI’s. This would require a pilot to descend to the planet surface and use the scanner (or their eyes) to find it’s exact location, or land and use the SRV wavescanner instead, but at least it would add one more layer of exploration activity to the game loop, plus a choice of how to finish the POI hunt.
• With regards to probe synthesis recipes, please keep the required materials basic. Meaning they can be gathered by either SRV scavenging OR mining in rings. This gives pilots a choice to pick the method they find more enjoyable.

These are my opinions on the matter, and other than those I like whats been proposed. It is good to hear that devs are mulling things over, it means we might see some positive change yet!

Thanks.

When it comes to the issue of fixing exploration, yours is one of the few player opinions I take seriously. The reason being that you have so tirelessly fought for exploration improvements for the longest time, & are not some "Johnny come lately" looking to defend the current system purely for the credits.

So it pleasing to note that we seem to be in fierce agreement on the main points. Slightly more info revealed by the initial honk & probes not giving precise PoI locations.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Get used to using one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_analyzer

And, here's a book that might help:

https://www.amazon.com/ARRL-Handboo...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XT4B769QVB5D8507EQEW

Get one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Astrolabe-Hemispherium-Antique-Scientific-Instument/dp/B00CETJEKW

And, one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/E6-B-Flight-...80901&sr=1-10&keywords=slide+ruler+calculator

And, especially one of *these*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule

 

[mossfoot]

• The ADS honk revealing only the main star is not useful enough. It would be nice if it provided more information than that, but still less than the honk has for the past four years. Ideally I’d like to see it reveal the system structure only with the grey globes representing the planets. At least this would allow the explorer to quickly see how interesting a system layout is, while also showing if anything is tagged by other commanders too.

I'm down with that.

• The probes mechanic sounds great with one exception: I don’t like how they pinpoint the exact location of POI’s. I’d much rather have the probes reveal small manageable search zones for POI’s. This would require a pilot to descend to the planet surface and use the scanner (or their eyes) to find it’s exact location, or land and use the SRV wavescanner instead, but at least it would add one more layer of exploration activity to the game loop, plus a choice of how to finish the POI hunt.

Yes please! I don't think we should have to get out in our SRVs, but the fun of the hunt for POIs should definitely be in two steps - first revealing its existence with probes, then fine tuning it once we're in the general area. I want a sense of "where is it?" even just for a moment, instead of just going directly to it.

I liked the idea behind the "Search Area" in missions where you look for salvage on the ground, for example, but it is clearly erratic and random and not pinning anything down, it's just waiting till you've done it a set number of times, then goes behind you (so you can't see the structure pop in unless your ship turns really fast ) and ultimately feels pointless. But, again, I like the idea.

• With regards to probe synthesis recipes, please keep the required materials basic. Meaning they can be gathered by either SRV scavenging OR mining in rings. This gives pilots a choice to pick the method they find more enjoyable.

Having the materials able to be mined in rings is a must. I mean, sure, some explorers might not have an SRV with them, but I think it's even more important to give explorers a reason to mine in deep space once in a while. Change things up a bit.

 

[Chrizaim]

What about making the game so you don't have to google stuff?

EG: I heard about this new guardian FSD tech.

Had a look around galnet. Didn't find much. End up having to google where to go.

Instead: What about news article that gives you the location or some sort of mystery trail to find it. Or a way in game for the pioneering explorers to sell their data for others to buy. Rather than having to google it.
I would never find it otherwise. And its a cool location

 

[Ralph Vargr]

So now we're looking forward to at least three weeks before we even see a livestream related to Chapter 4, and no assurance that the first Q4 livestream will even cover exploration. I hope they take those three weeks and actively review all the information here and show us how much/little of this thread has been incorporated into the beta version of ED Chapter 4. Hopefully the circular arguments and argued metaphors slow down, or by the end of three weeks, we'll be so burned out, no answer from FD will satisfy any of us.
Regards

There is a 2.8% chance of that.

 

[GJ51]

Yeah. I mean why have game designers at all?

It would certainly be an improvement...

 

[WR3ND]

...

My response to the video...

The honk lets me know if a system might be more interesting to explore and if I might want to spend more time on it. The honk isn't the exploration; it helps enable it. I'd be fine with either black bodies or monochrome bodies and orbital lines though. Alternatively, doing 4000+ map mini-games on DW2 is not a prospect I'm looking forward to whatsoever, and mostly likely just won't bother with it.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Yep, Obsidian Ant is another person whose opinion I definitely respect. He is correct in saying that this needs to be the *beginning* of the exploration overhaul, not the end. Hopefully the "coding breakthrough" they have eluded to in other threads will help greatly with future game improvements.

 

[GJ51]

My response to the video...

The honk lets me know if a system might be more interesting to explore and if I might want to spend more time on it. The honk isn't the exploration; it helps enable it. I'd be fine with either black bodies or monochrome bodies and orbital lines though. Alternatively, doing 4000+ map mini-games on DW2 is not a prospect I'm looking forward to whatsoever, and mostly likely just won't bother with it.

Especially if it turn out to be effectively the same as the SRV treasure hunt where they turn down the volume on the "bandsaws" and have so many similar looking scans that you have to drive frequently to start to get even close to guessing what your looking at on the scanner.

Deciphering cryptic scan signals that current technology allows any modern combat vessel to easily categorize and display as a known identified target may sound like "fun" to some, but you can count me out.

Not interested in playing more FD "Here, pull my finger."

Had more than enough of that already.

 

[WR3ND]

Unless there's some sort of meaningful compromise worked into these changes, in effect, space is going to get a whole lot more empty.

 

[GJ51]

Why, we have thousands!
What we probably need the most are decision makers...

I think they have coders, but if you're asking me if the have designers, that's a great question.

Putting a "Placeholder" into game that's been around over four years that now has to be removed (according to some) doesn't exactly sound like design to me. If they never had a vision for where they wanted to go with exploration then how could there ever have been any real design to start with of significant quality.

There's still no rational argument presented for removal of current features.

A single scanner, preferably an internal module, could have all the features of the current scanners, plus a mode for signals analysis that incorporate all the new design features proposed. Any player who wants to just use the signal scanner would be more than free to do it that way. If the new additions are fun and have good content it will allow anyone to get into more detailed exploration if they wish. Great.

There's no reason they can't give everyone what they want as it's hard to construe exploration as competitive and no matter how fast we go none of us are likely to live long enough to see more than 3% of the ED Galaxy being discovered.

The notion that in order for the new mechanic to work the current capabilities need to be removed is a choice - not a necessity by any means. If anything it might even discourage some users from doing exploration.

How about declaring the flight model too easy. Maybe we should start advocating for the removal of FA off. After all there are commanders who have mastered it. Just because it's been around for 4 years is certainly no reason to keep it.

Or so I've been told...

 

[GJ51]

Unless there's some sort of meaningful compromise worked into these changes, in effect, space is going to get a whole lot more empty.

Absolutely. If this turns into the SRV scanner in the sky it has the potential to kill exploration.

Not too mention that I still haven't seen how this will affect locating Stations and Outposts or Surface ports when doing missions or Passenger runs.

Basic trading could be saved by this...

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Unless there's some sort of meaningful compromise worked into these changes, in effect, space is going to get a whole lot more empty.

So say you. It could as easily be the case that, for everyone who might choose to quit exploration over this change, there may be 3 or 4 who may take up exploration......who can really say? I know I am thinking of getting back into serious exploration for the first time in almost 3 years, & several of my friends feel the same way.

 

[WR3ND]

So say you. It could as easily be the case that, for everyone who might choose to quit exploration over this change, there may be 3 or 4 who may take up exploration......who can really say? I know I am thinking of getting back into serious exploration for the first time in almost 3 years, & several of my friends feel the same way.

I meant empty of celestial bodies. That being said, I'm not really sure about my prospects for DW2 now. Will of course have to test things out for myself in the game, but based on the info in the OP at least, it isn't looking very promising.

 

[GJ51]

So say you. It could as easily be the case that, for everyone who might choose to quit exploration over this change, there may be 3 or 4 who may take up exploration......who can really say? I know I am thinking of getting back into serious exploration for the first time in almost 3 years, & several of my friends feel the same way.

Exactly - who can say?

I'm think my exploration days are likely coming to a close.

Why is FD trying to make this a binary choice instead of just adding the new features and letting each player choose how they want to use it?

Why not just diminish the possibility of players disengaging?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Exactly - who can say?

I'm think my exploration days are likely coming to a close.

Why is FD trying to make this a binary choice instead of just adding the new features and letting each player choose how they want to use it?

Why not just diminish the possibility of players disengaging?

I've already disengaged.
There's zero chance of me completing my exploration goals before Q4 and the new mechanics are, as they stand, going to remove all enjoyment from completing them afterwards.

Consequently, ED is shelved until I hear from FDev that they're retaining the instaHonk.

I'll probably cancel my Netflix subscription too.

 

[Shir]

Generally I hope frontier doesn't make things too complex. I mean, there are people that can distinguish planets and bodies by listening to the sound when the mouse hovers over the system map. Or actually try to listen to the srv scanner sounds over a loud engine. But the majority enjoys simple, easy, and graphical.

 

[mossfoot]

So say you. It could as easily be the case that, for everyone who might choose to quit exploration over this change, there may be 3 or 4 who may take up exploration......who can really say? I know I am thinking of getting back into serious exploration for the first time in almost 3 years, & several of my friends feel the same way.

Ditto - after I grinded my way to Elite (in a T6 no less) I have had little motive to go back out exploring, other than a 100x100LY patch of space I call Sector MF-1

Since getting to Elite I've spent less than 1% of my time doing exploration. I suspect that will change with Chapter 4 and am already building a custom Krait for the task.

 

[Faded Glory]

When it comes to the issue of fixing exploration, yours is one of the few player opinions I take seriously. The reason being that you have so tirelessly fought for exploration improvements for the longest time, & are not some "Johnny come lately" looking to defend the current system purely for the credits.

So it pleasing to note that we seem to be in fierce agreement on the main points. Slightly more info revealed by the initial honk & probes not giving precise PoI locations.

Well, it's nice that you respect Mengy's opinion so much Marc.

Funnily enough, some of us have been making pretty much the same suggestions for quite a while, yet our suggestions are immediately met with resistance. Is that because you assume we want it easy, or are only in it for the credits?

Spoiler

Indeed. There's no reason why the two systems shouldn't coexist and even add some mental challenge.

Take this system


Imagine if it were a wireframe / blank outline, it could indicate to the curious player that the system might be interesting and worth further examination. Those two blank, but ringed bodies could be gas giants or perhaps something else... Examining the energy wave distribution line will tell the experienced and skilled player (some sarcasm there, sorry ) that they are in fact not gas giants, so perhaps worthy of a closer look. And the beauty (for some) is that they won't actually have to fly there to discover that they are in fact ringed water worlds!

As long as the initial blank outline tells me whether someone else has already scanned them, I'll be happy, although I will miss flying my spaceship.

And a less than gushing response.

Spoiler

Regarding non-specific (so x doesn't mark the spot), for fun reasons I agree entirely. However...

Once again, the scale of the game comes back to bite us (or at least FD). Sure, make the POI indicate an area say 5Km square or round, at first glance, that's no big deal, a ship can travel that in way less than a minute, and an SRV in around four dependent on terrain. So, for this guided discovery to work, whatever it is we are looking for needs to be reasonably visible from a decent height if we're to find it from the ship, and if the terrain is challenging then SRV discovery could be a right pain.

I've done lots of searching current POI's when doing kill skimmer missions, and I've found that the spawning of POI's to be very unreliable, so I see lots of room for frustration there. I'm not really sure what the answer is, because as I've said often, actually having to search for something should be part of the game, which it currently is not. But it also needs to be a fun part of the game, not a frustrating one.

Using Lat/Long coordinates is an example where the game doesn't have the mechanics to make tracking them fun over long distances. It's not difficult, it's just not fun, although there are some great 3rd part add-ons that work very nicely. Thinking about it though, that might work Ok if the search zone was small enough to be done in normal flight and doesn't require orbital cruise, even with the current not terribly user friendly mechanic for finding coordinates. Perhaps the POI could be revealed as a general location with coordinates included...

As to the actual spawning of POI's, I wrote this earlier. It doesn't address natural POI's, geysers and so on. I guess FD can put in lots of those (on appropriate planets), but unless there's something very useful to be got from them, I can't see players making the SC trip just to see another geyser after they've done a few.

But apparently I was suggesting it should be made easy...

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Well, it's nice that you respect Mengy's opinion so much Marc.

Funnily enough, some of us have been making pretty much the same suggestions for quite a while, yet our suggestions are immediately met with resistance. Is that because you assume we want it easy, or are only in it for the credits?


And a less than gushing response.


But apparently I was suggesting it should be made easy...

Hmm, it may not have been gushing, but my response was broadly in agreement with yours. I just suggested that it needs to be less than instantaneous. Even if that just means making the time needed to "honk" a tiny bit longer. My respect for Mengy comes from the fact that I have followed his musings on exploration for quite a long time.