Cheating Vs Combat Logging

[Vystein]

Why wouldn't Frontier just do what every other MMO with pvp in it do...

If you log out in combat (you have been damaged by weapons within the last X minutes), your ship stays in game, and still faces consequences even if the players client is closed. So if someone really needs to quit because the boss walked into the office, they could do so, even if in combat. Their ship, if being engaged by anyone else would remain and stay vulnerable for X minutes. If you emergency close client, crash, or disconnect and haven't been engaged within the last X minutes, the log out functions as it does currently.

Simple solution, no bans required, people will stop weaseling out of engagements. This would make the Open Play more fun.

 

[Schmack]

Agreed. If you stuff up, it's your look out. Deal with it.

Except you can log out using the timer. You don't need to hard disconnect. Same with the launch and forgetting something.

 

[Schmack]

This is really a non-issue. No one is harmed by someone CL'ing. If anything it screams "I quit". FDev can deal with it how they see fit, but I can tell you from recent experience and as someone who plays almost exclusively in Solo, I was playing on Mobius server yesterday and got the server disconnect 6 or 7 times while hunting HGEs. Once I was in the instance about to scoop and got the error. I thought "what if someone looks at my logs, would they think had some exploit going on?"

Then I was playing and there was a thunderstorm approaching. Right during a CZ battle, off goes the internet feed. I have everything on UPS and line conditioning, but I cannot control the incoming feed. It was out for about 5 minutes then right back on. Maybe indistinguishable from a kill switch.

Another time recently I was getting screen locks (happening a lot lately) in station menus, just the time wheel spinning or the buttons unresponsive on the screen. I would log out but even Esc didn't do anything. I had to task kill the game.

This is a program, it does things like this, you have to task kill it. I think if someone reports you for CL'ing and they have video evidence, you better not be in danger of losing your ship and you better not have other reports, but if there's some automatic tell, then the witch hunt will be a problem.

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Agree with the automatic reporting being a problem.

I used to play Discovery Freelancer and you had to be reported with evidence by another player before they'd even look at it. There would be sanctions if guilty.
I reckon that having all your engineering removed would be a fair disincentive to combat log.

 

[Morbad]

No one is harmed by someone CL'ing.

I don't agree.

A big part of any game like this is the presumption that everyone is playing by essentially the same rules, and has the same opportunities to influence the game setting.

Cheating to preserve assets, or time, gives the cheater an edge up on legitimate players. It may be minor, but it's there. This sort of unfairness should be strongly discouraged.

Then I was playing and there was a thunderstorm approaching. Right during a CZ battle, off goes the internet feed. I have everything on UPS and line conditioning, but I cannot control the incoming feed. It was out for about 5 minutes then right back on. Maybe indistinguishable from a kill switch.

Another time recently I was getting screen locks (happening a lot lately) in station menus, just the time wheel spinning or the buttons unresponsive on the screen. I would log out but even Esc didn't do anything. I had to task kill the game.

This is a program, it does things like this, you have to task kill it.

None of these are combat logging and it would take an incredible number of coincidences for any rational system to punish someone for unintentional disconnections, especially when most of them provided no in-game benefit.

Agree with the automatic reporting being a problem.

I used to play Discovery Freelancer and you had to be reported with evidence by another player before they'd even look at it. There would be sanctions if guilty.
I reckon that having all your engineering removed would be a fair disincentive to combat log.

Automatic logging and flagging (for review, not automatic punishment) of patterns of disconnections are necessary to catch cheating via disconnection in situations where there are no witnesses.

Disconnecting for an in-game advantage in Solo, or when alone in PG or Open, still allows a player's character an advantage they should not have and is still cheating.

 

[g1t]

not if they loose connection, my old ISP used to drop connections all the time, in battle. in super cruise. dropping out of super cruise. didnt matter what i was doing, if it was busy in my instanance chances are i was going to drop. you saying i should loose my kit for that?

 

[Schmack]

I don't agree.

A big part of any game like this is the presumption that everyone is playing by essentially the same rules, and has the same opportunities to influence the game setting.

Cheating to preserve assets, or time, gives the cheater an edge up on legitimate players. It may be minor, but it's there. This sort of unfairness should be strongly discouraged.



None of these are combat logging and it would take an incredible number of coincidences for any rational system to punish someone for unintentional disconnections, especially when most of them provided no in-game benefit.



Automatic logging and flagging (for review, not automatic punishment) of patterns of disconnections are necessary to catch cheating via disconnection in situations where there are no witnesses.

Disconnecting for an in-game advantage in Solo, or when alone in PG or Open, still allows a player's character an advantage they should not have and is still cheating.

I think it only matters in the instance of player versus player. Even then only to that player who is left holding the bag. Otherwise it's really no more severe of a impact than someone slamming a Sidewinder into a planet to get back to the station faster, or to get all the way back to the bubble from Colonia. To me those seem to be much more aggressive. Sure neither one results in saving of the ship but time is an asset. How much money could you make in the time it would take to jump all the way back to the bubble from Colonia?

There's a feature in a game that allows you to block players. If someone combat logs and you just block them. That pretty much ends that problem. Eventually that individual would have no one in their instance because they are known to combat log.

This problem isn't unique to Elite Dangerous, it happens on online sports games all the time where people quit when they are losing and sometimes those games don't register that as a game that was even played. So the quitter doesn't suffer a loss.

Scripting and botting are completely different from combat logging. Calling the two equal or saying they're both cheats it's just minimalizing the hacks.

So the problem of combat logging obviously is related to combat and it seems that the player wants to see the other ship explode, to get some satisfaction from their win. But instead that ship has becomes unresponsive. I don't know if people get more upset because the break in immersion or because of the fact that they didn't get to destroy the other person's vessel, setting them back some assets.

 

[Morbad]

I think it only matters in the instance of player versus player. Even then only to that player who is left holding the bag.

I don't particularly see any difference between someone disconnecting on me in combat, someone hacking to destroy my CMDR's ship with a single shot from a pulse laser, and someone yanking the plug to keep their trade vessel from being destroyed by and NPC or a toaster rack in Solo.

The ultimate result is the same; what should not have been is and legitimate in-game continuity is broken. The basic means is the same as well; it's all a violation of the rules.

Scripting and botting are completely different from combat logging. Calling the two equal or saying they're both cheats it's just minimalizing the hacks.

I completely disagree.

 

[Schmack]

I don't particularly see any difference between someone disconnecting on me in combat, someone hacking to destroy my CMDR's ship with a single shot from a pulse laser, and someone yanking the plug to keep their trade vessel from being destroyed by and NPC or a toaster rack in Solo.

The ultimate result is the same; what should not have been is and legitimate in-game continuity is broken. The basic means is the same as well; it's all a violation of the rules.



I completely disagree.

And that approach is how the scripters are able to continue doing their thing, since why prioritize that over some benign act of panic? Why wouldn't FDev put scripting on the back burner and focus on the much much larger user base that has the ability to CL?

 

[g1t]

scripting, bots, hacks all effect server performace and stability esp if they're flakey. disconnecting does not. definatly not the same thing

 

[Morbad]

And that approach is how the scripters are able to continue doing their thing, since why prioritize that over some benign act of panic? Why wouldn't FDev put scripting on the back burner and focus on the much much larger user base that has the ability to CL?

I don't agree with the assertion that willfully disconnecting to change the outcome of in-game events is benign. If anything, the apparent prevalence and tacit acceptance of it would give it a larger overall impact than most other forms of cheating.

Regardless, from my perspective it's all the same issue; a cheat is a cheat no matter how it's done. They should be identified and removed. The same kinds of telemetry collection and review mechanisms should be perfectly capable of flagging both.

 

[Manawydn]

Combat logging is cheating.

 

[Schmack]

So scripting should be handled in the same way as task killing or intentional dropping of the internet connection to avoid ship loss or for any other in-game reason.

So someone with a script sitting in front of a station single shot killing everyone in the instance, or someone who claims first discovery on a system that no one else can reach, or someone who destroys all the ships in a DW2 pack using hacks to both get there and to kill the ships... That person should be treated in the same way as the person who task kills in solo to avoid blowing up in the toaster rack.

If so, this unwillingness to differentiate just means no priority.

And this is odd because all of the concern recently regarding hackers in the game, from the elite PvP crowd, seems to differentiate this from CLing because they say "why you should care" and I simply don't care if someone CLs in Solo. Do you think they do, and is there a push to stop CLing in Solo?

 

[Troopi]

They can't punish combat logging as cheating, because that would punish the many cases of accidental internet break. They would be forced to examine Combat Logging case by case, due to many complaints, and they would loose a huge quantity of players on a witch hunt.
But this topic has been spoken about so many times. It's up to FDevs to choose the right path, and many good examples have been given. Give it a rest, if you suspect a player of Clog, just add him to the black list, and he will never bother you again.

 

[T1-Jafo]

Quote: "Deliberately disconnecting to preserve one's assets or otherwise avoid in-game consequence is cheating."
If that is true, then doing so when one gets stuck in the toast rack or cancels a launch sequence they made by mistake is also cheating and deserves the same; Correct?

For those cases, that is what the in-game mechanic via menu logout is for.

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

For those cases, that is what the in-game mechanic via menu logout is for.

Though I've never actually CL'ed, I have both lost connection because of my antiquated internet connection and change the mode when I happen to get stuck in the rack and once when I accidentally prematurely launched.

The RULE states:
"Deliberately disconnecting to preserve one's assets or otherwise avoid in-game consequence is cheating."

If and when one gets stuck for what ever reason in the toast rack for example or accidentally launches prematurely and utilizes the so called "IN GAME Mechanic" as you state, they are by default "Deliberately disconnecting to preserve one's assets". The process of doing such and the process of performing a CL and the reason's for both are exactly the same (preserving one assets). One can argue semantics till the cows come home, but if of the two reason's is cheating, then both are.

 

[T1-Jafo]

Though I've never actually CL'ed, I have both lost connection because of my antiquated internet connection and change the mode when I happen to get stuck in the rack and once when I accidentally prematurely launched.

The RULE states:
"Deliberately disconnecting to preserve one's assets or otherwise avoid in-game consequence is cheating."

If and when one gets stuck for what ever reason in the toast rack for example or accidentally launches prematurely and utilizes the so called "IN GAME Mechanic" as you state, they are by default "Deliberately disconnecting to preserve one's assets". The process of doing such and the process of performing a CL and the reason's for both are exactly the same (preserving one assets). One can argue semantics till the cows come home, but if of the two reason's is cheating, then both are.

You are correct and I couldn't agree more; to me it seems a little less like cheating when you use the menu to logout to escape being stuck in the toaster rack, (or if one forgets to stock limpets and doesn't want to exit the station and re-request docking), but that is just me. In the PvP community, there is no distinction between severing network connection / task killing and menu logging. When other Cmdrs are involved use of any of the above is hugely frowned upon and a bannable offense in a lot player groups.

 

[Zed]

scripting, bots, hacks all effect server performace and stability esp if they're flakey. disconnecting does not. definatly not the same thing

I'm in a private group but nowhere near anyone else in that group and yet I have 6 open connections to ED servers. If you think me disconnecting will have no impact on server performance you're wrong.

 

[g1t]

so other than freeing bandwidth what negative effect do you think "hanging up" will do?

 

[Old Duck]

What you call Combat Logging I call a Blink Drive. #DarkMatter