Cheating

[Robert Maynard]

Reminder to all participants: please discuss the topic. Other participants are not the topic. Failure to comply will result in advisories, warnings, reply bans, and / or thread closure.

 

[YORKSH1RE NEO]

 

[varonica]

"Oh you need evidence, oh this is not evidence, oh this evidence is too old, boo hoo" I rest my case your honor.

Again, literally a snapshot of American politics, where people think other people's problems don't exist.

That wasn't "evidence", you have accepted the claim of evidence, for evidence itself. I accept you have made a claim that cheating is going on and have asked you to provide evidence, presenting a mere list of claims of cheating isn't evidence of cheating, and then I pointed out your list of claims of cheating was 3 years old, that still doesn't make it evidence btw, just makes it very old claims of cheating.

 

[varonica]

Stellarforge is the code that generates the galaxy, so the whole thing is embedded in the client, yes.

No, no it isn't, the stellar forge is an entirely separate program that runs and generates the galaxy from first principals, that is from the original galacitc accretion cloud it processes the data and evolves the galaxy through billions of years to create the Elite Dangerous galaxy we have now. I very much suspect you don't have a computer that can simulate trillions of object through billions years to create the star system you are about to jump into int he time it takes for that jump.

Once the galaxy is generated the procedural seeds for each system are processed each time you jump into the system, that's what your computer does, it doesn't run the stellar forge each time you jump into s system, that would be...impossible.

Ah yes, here you go;

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz3nhCykZNw

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It seems to typically take 10-20 seconds to create a system

Most of the loading time isn't the detailed system generation, though - picking a random system that I visited years ago, it took about 3 seconds to load the system map and probably most of that wasn't determining what stars and planets were present.

If someone was able to reverse-engineer that process they'd certainly be able to find ELWs considerably quicker than a normal player - in the time taken to actually scan and map one it'd have found you three or four more nearby. But I doubt anyone sufficiently capable of doing that cares enough to actually do it, certainly not judging by the standards of what the "data miners" have claimed to have found.

Once the galaxy is generated the procedural seeds for each system are processed each time you jump into the system

Yes. That bit happens on the client and could be reverse-engineered at least in theory, though. Being able to go from the system seed number to whether it contained ELWs would be sufficient for this sort of (theoretical) cheating.

Note that even the procedural seeds for the systems aren't stored but generated from other data as needed - a complete list of system seeds would still be hundreds of gigabytes and the game doesn't take up that much space, or generate that much network traffic if you try to plot a long-range route - what's actually stored is at a much higher level.

 

[varonica]

The main part on the stellar forge starts around 11 minutes, at 30 minutes they start talking about how the individuals systems are evolved through time using the stellar forge to create the final output that is used by the procedural key. This is done for all 400b system in the galaxy.

 

[varonica]

Most of the loading time isn't the detailed system generation, though - picking a random system that I visited years ago, it took about 3 seconds to load the system map and probably most of that wasn't determining what stars and planets were present.

If someone was able to reverse-engineer that process they'd certainly be able to find ELWs considerably quicker than a normal player - in the time taken to actually scan and map one it'd have found you three or four more nearby. But I doubt anyone sufficiently capable of doing that cares enough to actually do it, certainly not judging by the standards of what the "data miners" have claimed to have found.


Yes. That bit happens on the client and could be reverse-engineered at least in theory, though. Being able to go from the system seed number to whether it contained ELWs would be sufficient for this sort of (theoretical) cheating.

Note that even the procedural seeds for the systems aren't stored but generated from other data as needed - a complete list of system seeds would still be hundreds of gigabytes and the game doesn't take up that much space, or generate that much network traffic if you try to plot a long-range route - what's actually stored is at a much higher level.

What they have done with creating our galaxy as a 1:1 simulation is an amazing thing, I can understand why no other game maker has even attempted it since, they state explicitly in the video that no home computer could possibly hold all the data to create the galaxy on the fly, many terrabytes of data I believe it has been stated.

 

[Dragsham]

The last posts in utube about cheats in elite were about a year ago. Since then Im sure fdev have countered their ways round things like not only exploring, but thrusters engine output pp output n temp weps potency and heat so on so forth.
IF this is stored on our client pcs it's hackable that's a fact.
This despicable kind of player aught be blocked for life.
But@ gotta tip your hat to em for ingenuity

 

[Ian Doncaster]

What they have done with creating our galaxy as a 1:1 simulation is an amazing thing, I can understand why no other game maker has even attempted it since, they state explicitly in the video that no home computer could possibly hold all the data to create the galaxy on the fly, many terrabytes of data I believe it has been stated.

The really amazing thing about it isn't that it can generate a realistic-enough galaxy from first principles (that's been done before - in FE2, for instance - and the principles aren't that tricky) but that it does it quickly enough and in a modular enough fashion that it feels to someone playing the game as if there is a database of pre-generated systems just sitting around waiting to be used, and things like long-range route plotting actually work.

Even Terabytes is an underestimate for how big the whole galaxy would be if generated at once - forget storing it on a home computer, even most large companies won't have the storage required for the whole thing. Just the ID64 list for every body which actually exists would be multiple terabytes on its own... petabytes for the whole thing ... and yet any particular bit of it is just there in full detail when you need it.

 

[Stealthie]

I'd like to know what Fdev are doing about this problem to be honest.


o7

Setting aside any discussion about these issues, themselves, the simple fact is that we're unlikely to see FDev make a big fuss about anything they're doing because it'll only ever serve to draw negative attention to the issues.

FDev announce an update intended to prevent something - people assume that thing MUST be a significant problem or FDev wouldn't have devoted time to fixing it.
FDev create some kind of dynamic system to hinder botting - people assume botting MUST be a big problem or FDev wouldn't have tried to prevent it.
FDev publish statistics related to bans for T&C violations - people see stat's and if they're big numbers they assume cheating must be common or if they're small numbers they assume FDev aren't doing enough to stop cheating.

Basically, anything that FDev do overtly related to cheating is likely to be interpreted in a nagative way.

Realistically, all they can do is continue to quietly play whackamole with cheats and hope that it'll be enough to ensure most players don't develop the perception that cheating is enough of a problem to complain about.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

You are literally saying what I care about is trivial and doesn't matter. It's not a very smart thing to say to someone who's fighting on your side. Consider the two alternatives: either I am convince by you and quit the fight, or I think what you said is stupid and take offense, thereby generating infighting. What good comes out of such arguments?

And yes, I am a bit offended by your trivializing what I care about. You simply don't understand the sentiment, which is fine, and this is exactly where one needs to exercise respect. Respect other people's plights and problems, even if you might not understand.

What we are saying, is that cheating really does not matter in exploration. And it gives you so little advantage above normal gameplay that taking risk of getting caught vs what it would give is unfavorable. Like that example making impossible megajump, if there is any cheat detection running from Fdev's side that would certainly alarm it.

 

[Bigmaec]

There is panther clipper

The only sensible post in this thread.
/thread

Anyway, I discovered three untagged ELWs on my way back from Colonia, arguably the most travelled road these days.
I travelled through an undiscovered F type system with terraformable HMCs less than 3kly out from the bubble.
Your fears are exaggerated, OP.

 

[varonica]

Realistically, all they can do is continue to quietly play whackamole with cheats and hope that it'll be enough to ensure most players don't develop the perception that cheating is enough of a problem to complain about.

That's really any game maker can do. The entire field of software is basically making something as good as you can and then waiting for someone to come along and poke holes in it, because that's what will happen, and then you patch that hole.

 

[varonica]

The only sensible post in this thread.
/thread

Anyway, I discovered three untagged ELWs on my way back from Colonia, arguably the most travelled road these days.
I travelled through an undiscovered F type system with terraformable HMCs less than 3kly out from the bubble.
Your fears are exaggerated, OP.

One of the easiest ways to find untagged systems is to set up your route filter to take you through systems with undesirable stars as the primary, like brown dwarfs and etc, some of the closest systems I have found to the bubble have been those systems, a lot of players just filter for scoopables, I never do so I hit a fair few close in untagged systems with dwarf stars.

 

[Jukelo]

My biggest issue with cheating is that whenever I think of exploring the galaxy, I know there will be some cheaters out there instantly surveying entire systems and getting their names on there as the first discoverers, while I tread every step with absolute care only to find every system and planet is taken and named by idiots who don't deserve it. Thinking about this really bums me out.

0.055% of the galaxy has been explored. Assuming 1 second per system (which means no time in the loading screen hyperspace), no fuel or range consideration, no fussing with the galaxy map and no visit to an already explored system, it would take your hypothetical cheater 13 years to explore the rest.

 

[Bigmaec]

0.055% of the galaxy has been explored.

He gained his explo rank with Robigo runs. What do you expect?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

0.055% of the galaxy has been explored. Assuming 1 second per system (which means no time in the loading screen hyperspace), no fuel or range consideration, no fussing with the galaxy map and no visit to an already explored system, it would take your hypothetical cheater 13 years to explore the rest.

More like 12 700 years. Than 13 years Very rough calculation: 400 000 000 000/60/60/24/365

 

[Jukelo]

More like 12 700 years. Than 13 years Very rough calculation: 400 000 000 000/60/60/24/365

Note to self: don't do maths before coffee.

 

[bangermsuk]

you can not stop cheating per say, you can only catch the ones that have been found out. Cheating in games in itself is a business like frontier,and it is an ongoing battle constantly.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi All

What are bots?

Hi
Exactly, what are they?....Well I did a search, and also read the link provided by Robert Maynard ...cheers for that Robert!
I must admit I was relatively unaware of what a 'bot' was, or did until reading this post.

My biggest issue with cheating is that whenever I think of exploring the galaxy, I know there will be some cheaters out there instantly surveying entire systems and getting their names on there as the first discoverers, while I tread every step with absolute care only to find every system and planet is taken and named by idiots who don't deserve it. Thinking about this really bums me out.

Yeah, I see your point, and casting my mind back to areas of the game I've travelled in it's been probably obvious now looking back, but at the time I just accepted it as my imagination sorta.
Still, a recent trip I did to Colonia (my first) was basically following the new Carrier CG placements. I started off in the bubble and mapped a route between roughly each one.
I departed each Carrier BUT instead of following a direct route from one to the other I traced a route approximately 70 , or maybe a couple of hundred light years away from a direct route, between each new Carrier.
I found plenty of undiscovered systems, even some discovered but not completely mapped, which I duly finished mapping and got my Cmdr's name on.
In some instances there were systems with Earth like worlds, I discovered 3 undiscovered, and surprisingly quite close to some of the new positions of the CG created Carrier stops. Quite convenient for registering the data. So...without giving too much away there's plenty to discover if you plan your route a bit differently to what might be considered the norm.

As for undiscovered systems nearer the bubble, obviously that's or they're harder to find, but again, sometimes there are systems overlooked at the moment, probably because of the general 'highways' that people use to get to the more known areas in the Galaxy. I know of a few 'areas' that are relatively close in, maybe 500 to 800 light years away from Sol that I still find undiscovered, or only partially discovered. I think that's because in the 'early' days of the game players didn't have the newer in game tools to find planets etc. that there is now, hence the main Star may have been discovered, but not the rest of the bodies inside that system.
I must admit, finding new undiscovered systems is fairly fun, but I personally find more than a few hours of system to system travel a bit tiring. The new static Carriers or 'stations' along the route to Colonia has been a good idea. An hour or two travelling to various 'Carrier Stations', and then using one of those as a 'Base' for adjacent systems exploration is practical and not 'grinding' for me generally.

I don't own a Carrier myself, for various reasons, so this type of gameplay suits me personally. For instance the thought a week or so ago to travelling back from Colonia was a bit daunting, so I hitched a ride back on one of the present Carrier 'Shuttles', (I wanted to get back to the bubble for some different styles of gameplay, and to collect the special FSD's from the recent CG). The fairly regular 'shuttles' that some generous Cmdr's provide to Colonia and other interesting regions is also a great idea, so many thanks to them too!

Whew!...just realized I've made perhaps a too long and maybe boring post, but the gist of it is there are still plenty of undiscovered systems and planets etc some obviously quite away from the bubble, but not as far away as you might imagine, with a little bit of poking around. Even at Colonia, in a well engineered DBX you don't have to travel that far away to discover new undiscovered systems to explore. Just a couple or several jumps.
At the moment there are permanently locked systems near the Bubble. It will be really interesting to see how quickly some of them might be discovered once those systems unlock...or have they been 'discovered' already! ...


Jack