cheftian canopy

[gribley]

firstly that chieftain is a lovely ship to fly and use. the hardpoint's and their placement are lovely, and the handling is perfect, it should be a fantastic ship for PvP and PvE.
however the canopy completely destroys the usability of the ship. my original hope was to use it for PvP, as was others intention.

the universal consensus however is that the canopy is a complete deal-breaker rendering the chieftain utterly unusable in any PvP situation, and a very poor choice in many PvE ones. people are reporting that they are regularly losing their canopy with %97 hull remaining, and in many cases on the first volley of PA fire they receive. personally i have lost my canopy multiple times at %80 and have only died twice due to hull damage as my canopy will usually be destroyed between the 90%-%70 mark and that's with the use of a 2A AFMU.

while some ships have weak canopies with the gunship being a very notable example an AFMU can often counteract this. the chieftain is unusable because it loses its canopy IN A SINGLE VOLLEY. there is no way to counteract a canopy that goes from %100 to broken in a single rail-gun or PA's volley. heck even fighting a thargoid was nearly impossible with 4 canopy blowouts before i beat one, and even then i needed to repair my canopy 5 times (yes i use hull reinforcements, but they have no impact on canopy strength)

this would not be a issue if the chieftain had shields that could hold up to punishment. but its very weak shields and good internal slots make hybrid bi-weave hull-tank the only viable option (just like the FAS and other core dynamics ships). if you have a hull-tank that cannot hull-tank at all then its simply no good as a ship.

as a final note Hull-tank ships are already awfully counterable with missiles, super-perpetrator railguns and cannons utterly wrecking them, wheres the meta shields-tank FDl has no decent counter apart from shooting it an obscene number of times and trying to cascade its SCB's. it would be nice to see more ships become viable giving a real choice to PvP pilots and balancing hull-tanks, or at the very least making the chieftains canopy resistant to more than a sneeze would be a nice start.

it would be nice to see the chieftain become viable as a PvP ship, but with the canopy as fragile as it is now it is simply not possible.


[EDIT] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISW4BxEF5JI&t=1s (video demonstrates the problem)

 

[Boshea]

Its an issue for PvE as well. Even engineered the Chieftain has very low shields, and its pretty easy for NPCs to pop the canopy if you get in a bad spot.

 

[Mohrgan]

I have tried A6, and Bi-Weaves, they both work fine. The idea is in the description of the ship, 'avoid damage'. The aChief dances with the best of them, use that, rather than face tanking. With a C6 Bi-Weave with g3 Reinforced/Fact Charge I got through both a Dangerous 'Conda, and Deadly 'Vette Pirate Lord missions, with a full canopy. The 'Conda, I left with 100% hull. So, I would say for PvE the aChief is just fine. There are plenty of slots and power for SCB's. Effective Shielding should be decent on an aChief. I have never been able to bring myself to load up any SCB's (an old prejudice from 1.X days.).

I can imagine some c5 shield with a c6 SCB being pretty darn good with this ship. Another bit of advice is: load some MRP's I'm sure they protect the canopy some. As for PvP, that is for someone else to comment on.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

I have tried A6, and Bi-Weaves, they both work fine. The idea is in the description of the ship, 'avoid damage'. The aChief dances with the best of them, use that, rather than face tanking. With a C6 Bi-Weave with g3 Reinforced/Fact Charge I got through both a Dangerous 'Conda, and Deadly 'Vette Pirate Lord missions, with a full canopy. The 'Conda, I left with 100% hull. So, I would say for PvE the aChief is just fine. There are plenty of slots and power for SCB's. Effective Shielding should be decent on an aChief. I have never been able to bring myself to load up any SCB's (an old prejudice from 1.X days.).

I can imagine some c5 shield with a c6 SCB being pretty darn good with this ship. Another bit of advice is: load some MRP's I'm sure they protect the canopy some. As for PvP, that is for someone else to comment on.

We're not talking about PVE here since PVE is a terrible indicator of imbalances, due to extremly dumbed down difficulty and very bad AI development quality.

 

[gribley]

I have tried A6, and Bi-Weaves, they both work fine. The idea is in the description of the ship, 'avoid damage'. The aChief dances with the best of them, use that, rather than face tanking. With a C6 Bi-Weave with g3 Reinforced/Fact Charge I got through both a Dangerous 'Conda, and Deadly 'Vette Pirate Lord missions, with a full canopy. The 'Conda, I left with 100% hull. So, I would say for PvE the aChief is just fine. There are plenty of slots and power for SCB's. Effective Shielding should be decent on an aChief. I have never been able to bring myself to load up any SCB's (an old prejudice from 1.X days.).

I can imagine some c5 shield with a c6 SCB being pretty darn good with this ship. Another bit of advice is: load some MRP's I'm sure they protect the canopy some. As for PvP, that is for someone else to comment on.

thats a common statement. the fact is that
(a) this fails to fix gimb weapons
(b) its straight up impossible to avoid ALL PA fire from a human opponent. you need to face towards them and you need to get in close to trade PA's. incoming fire is always going to happen, and if you believe that this is not the case then i invite you to watch videos from the most accomplished PvP'ers and observe how even they regularly take hits. the only way that you could avoid damage was sticking to the rear of your opponent, and with everyone flying flight-assist off that's a laughable concept against anything human piloted other then one of the big 3.
(c) a SCB is a poor choice for a chief. it has such weak shields already that they would be of little use and would require sacrificing utility for heat-sinks and an overall loss in survivability.
(d) a single volley of 2 rail-gun shots can and often does blow out the canopy from %100, rail-guns being hit-scan cannot be avoided like leading weapons.

and finally damage avoidance is the norm, and PvP'ers have across the Bord discarded it as an option. i don't have an issue with the canopy being a possible point of weakness, just as i have no problem with the power plant or the capacitor being an obvious target, its just that the canopy is so extremely weak that it cannot be countered by avoiding damage or running an AFMU, and that's a complete deal breaker wit no rationale to justify it.

 

[Mohrgan]

We're not talking about PVE here since PVE is a terrible indicator of imbalances, due to extremly dumbed down difficulty and complete lack of resistance.

That's not what I got from the OP. I'm not going to have some biased goon come and tell me I can't comment. Read it, use it, or don't. Please yourself, just don't try and edit me.

 

[Mohrgan]

thats a common statement. the fact is that
(a) this fails to fix gimb weapons
(b) its straight up impossible to avoid ALL PA fire from a human opponent. you need to face towards them and you need to get in close to trade PA's. incoming fire is always going to happen, and if you believe that this is not the case then i invite you to watch videos from the most accomplished PvP'ers and observe how even they regularly take hits. the only way that you could avoid damage was sticking to the rear of your opponent, and with everyone flying flight-assist off that's a laughable concept against anything human piloted other then one of the big 3.
(c) a SCB is a poor choice for a chief. it has such weak shields already that they would be of little use and would require sacrificing utility for heat-sinks and an overall loss in survivability.
(d) a single volley of 2 rail-gun shots can and often does blow out the canopy from %100, rail-guns being hit-scan cannot be avoided like leading weapons.

and finally damage avoidance is the norm, and PvP'ers have across the Bord discarded it as an option. i don't have an issue with the canopy being a possible point of weakness, just as i have no problem with the power plant or the capacitor being an obvious target, its just that the canopy is so extremely weak that it cannot be countered by avoiding damage or running an AFMU, and that's a complete deal breaker wit no rationale to justify it.

All of that is true for the FAS, yet it gets plenty of use. A harder canopy wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. I just happened to mention that you can have success in PvE with it. So there you go. Gripe about an imperfection in PvP, I did say I'd leave that for others.

As to avoiding damage being discarded by PvPers, see Truesilver. He's a master.

P.S. Get behind them.

 

[gribley]

All of that is true for the FAS, yet it gets plenty of use. A harder canopy wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. I just happened to mention that you can have success in PvE with it. So there you go. Gripe about an imperfection in PvP, I did say I'd leave that for others.

As to avoiding damage being discarded by PvPers, see Truesilver. He's a master.

P.S. Get behind them.

i fly a FAs as my main ship. i only lose my canopy when i have about %10 hull left, and i have never lost it in PvE. the very fact that the chief is popping in the first volley, and blowing out in PvE makes it incomparable to the FAS.

even worse i dont know of a single person who runs an AFMU on the FAS to deal with canopy break's, when you consider that i carry one on the chief and use it, and even then have blowout's with 3.4 of my hull left says even more about how much of a glaring fault this is.

 

[Spandexxx]

I have tried A6, and Bi-Weaves, they both work fine. The idea is in the description of the ship, 'avoid damage'. The aChief dances with the best of them, use that, rather than face tanking. With a C6 Bi-Weave with g3 Reinforced/Fact Charge I got through both a Dangerous 'Conda, and Deadly 'Vette Pirate Lord missions, with a full canopy. The 'Conda, I left with 100% hull. So, I would say for PvE the aChief is just fine. There are plenty of slots and power for SCB's. Effective Shielding should be decent on an aChief. I have never been able to bring myself to load up any SCB's (an old prejudice from 1.X days.).

I can imagine some c5 shield with a c6 SCB being pretty darn good with this ship. Another bit of advice is: load some MRP's I'm sure they protect the canopy some. As for PvP, that is for someone else to comment on.

Running an MRP doesn't seem to make any difference to the canopy longevity. Or lack thereof.

I get that the Chief is supposed to be nimble enough to avoid taking the hits but it's going to happen. That's why I am running plenty of armour. Speaking in purely in PVE terms its not a deal breaker for the Chief but it does seem a bit silly. My last fight in it I flew away with 97% hull, 90 something % left on the MRP and 20% left on the canopy. That doesn't seem quite right to me. I get that it is supposed to be a weak point that needs protecting but maybe not THAT weak!

 

[gribley]

i would also like to add that it appears that truesilver flies a FDL. the FDl is massively faster than the chief and has laterals equal to it.
an FDl can joust in and out of fire and use its laterals to avoid PA's. the chief being slow has no choice but to stand its ground, so its going to get hit no matter what.
considering that its a bigger target then the FDl and can only use its laterals to "avoid incoming fire" its a worse ship for dodging.

 

[Mohrgan]

i would also like to add that it appears that truesilver flies a FDL. the FDl is massively faster than the chief and has laterals equal to it.
an FDl can joust in and out of fire and use its laterals to avoid PA's. the chief being slow has no choice but to stand its ground, so its going to get hit no matter what.
considering that its a bigger target then the FDl and can only use its laterals to "avoid incoming fire" its a worse ship for dodging.

Truesilver is famous both for an iCourier, and a Mr. Fragface FAS, I have seen him in an FdL plenty as well. He has made some demos, about avoiding damage through Circle Strafing. That has been by bible to effective combat. Have a look. iCourier by the way.

P.S. Speed doesn't equal evasion. I find the lateral thrusters on the aChief to be very good. I couldn't exactly 'orbit' the 'Vette I mentioned, but I got the full view of the 'Conda.

 

[CMDR_Leon200079]

Same thing happens to mine. Cracks as soon as shields go down. Using the FAS again for now

 

[gribley]

Truesilver is famous both for an iCourier, and a Mr. Fragface FAS, I have seen him in an FdL plenty as well. He has made some demos, about avoiding damage through Circle Strafing. That has been by bible to effective combat. Have a look. iCourier by the way.

so to clarify you are stating that the correct answer is to take no fire during PvP and that this is possible?
if this was the case why do people run shields, run hull reinforcement's, run module reinforcements.

i had a good look at his vids in no fights against competant pilots can he avoid getting shot plenty.
here is a good example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVq7WhzpyOg

will you look at that, he finishes on %47 hull. lovely flying definitely, but no good for the current isue as the chief pops on the first volley a lot of the time, and at around %80 hull usually.

 

[Lori Jameson]

Truesilver is famous both for an iCourier, and a Mr. Fragface FAS, I have seen him in an FdL plenty as well. He has made some demos, about avoiding damage through Circle Strafing. That has been by bible to effective combat. Have a look. iCourier by the way.

P.S. Speed doesn't equal evasion. I find the lateral thrusters on the aChief to be very good. I couldn't exactly 'orbit' the 'Vette I mentioned, but I got the full view of the 'Conda.

This.

If you know how to make the A.Chieftain dance, the ballet of a CZ or the intimate tango with another player becomes second nature.

so to clarify you are stating that the correct answer is to take no fire during PvP and that this is possible?
if this was the case why do people run shields, run hull reinforcement's, run module reinforcements.

i had a good look at his vids in no fights against competant pilots can he avoid getting shot plenty.
here is a good example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVq7WhzpyOg

will you look at that, he finishes on %47 hull. lovely flying definitely, but no good for the current isue as the chief pops on the first volley a lot of the time, and at around %80 hull usually.

Let's see you do better.

 

[Mohrgan]

so to clarify you are stating that the correct answer is to take no fire during PvP and that this is possible?
if this was the case why do people run shields, run hull reinforcement's, run module reinforcements.

i had a good look at his vids in no fights against competant pilots can he avoid getting shot plenty.
here is a good example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVq7WhzpyOg

will you look at that, he finishes on %47 hull. lovely flying definitely, but no good for the current isue as the chief pops on the first volley a lot of the time, and at around %80 hull usually.

Well, does it have to be all or nothing? Can you not preserve your shields with avoidance so not to expose your canopy? Look, I don't want to go -for-tat with you. State your points, make your argument. I only intended to offer some encouragement on the PvE side of things. I've had some good success, and have not been troubled with the canopy since Beta 2. What I have to say is just a valid as what you have to say.

Like I said before. Read it, or don't. I don't care, but you're not going to run me off because you don't like my point of view.

 

[gribley]

mate, beyond the point.
the point is
(A) you get shot in PvP if your opponent is slightly decent
(b) your ship needs to be able to take said hit (otherwise why would hull integrity be a thing)
(c) the chieftain is unable to take a hit to itys hull because the canopy blows out soon after that happens
(d) this makes the chief an extremely bad PvP ship and should be fixed do it has a chance.

 

[o'moylan]

That's not what I got from the OP. I'm not going to have some biased goon come and tell me I can't comment. Read it, use it, or don't. Please yourself, just don't try and edit me.

So your stance is the canopy is ok,
just don't get hit ?

duh ?

 

[nosleepdemon]

You can't easily avoid focussed PAC rounds, especially since there's a bug that doesn't even always render the damn things when your opponent shoots them.

The only solution I can think of is to go FA off with gimbles, which lets you dodge in more chaotic ways as you are no longer forced to bring your nose to point straight at your lead reticule. Of course, then you are not hitting with anything that deals absolute damage.

The canopy is ridiculous though no doubt, I've had it go twice and in neither case did I see the shot coming. It was in PvE as well, which is practically unheard of. I'd say the Chieftain is somehow more prone to canopy loss than the DBS, and I fly my DBS without shields period.

 

[o'moylan]

The Chieftain canopy is garbage.
No if, ands or buts about it.
It needs to be fixed or only 1/4 of the people who would like to fly it, will.

fly dangerous

 

[Mohrgan]

So your stance is the canopy is ok,
just don't get hit ?

duh ?

The point was, that you can generate enough Shields to protect your canopy while shooting at NPC's.

D'oh.