[CLOSED] EDDB - a site about systems, stations, commodities and trade routes in Elite: Dangerous.

[Old Duck]

It is not unplayable per se, but the 3rd party tools make it so much more enjoyable, since they allow people to loose less time on the activities that are tedious for most people, like wondering around aimlessly looking for modules.

ED without 3rd party tools is an exercise in frustration and a consequence of FDev's idea of making every gameplay loop as obscure and/or mind-numbing as possible. So, not unplayable but very close to it for 90% of players.

I would have long ago left the game if it weren't for these 3rd party tools. My time is precious and I do not need to waste it in silly time sinks.

When it comes to finding modules, I can see where that would be frustrating for the new player. I'm guessing you're Elite rank in something now, so finding modules isn't an issue for you personally. I remember hunting for modules (I guess I didn't know about EDDB as a new player, can't remember), and it was a pain, I'll grant you that. On the other hand, I know know of some Jameson-like stations where most modules can be found, and I'm sure someone could easily compile a list near the starter systems right here on the forum for those new players. AFAIK module inventory is relatively stable.

It'll be interesting to see how many people switch from "Elite is unplayable without EDDB" and commit to "I'm done, goodbye!" It's obvious that no amount of defending the playability of the game without 3rd party tools is going to change the minds of those who think otherwise, so I'm done trying. I quit Elite sometime ago and am rather enjoying trade in X4 instead, so it's no matter to me (though I still stand by my previous posts).

 

[nepomuk]

When it comes to finding modules, I can see where that would be frustrating for the new player. I'm guessing you're Elite rank in something now, so finding modules isn't an issue for you personally. I remember hunting for modules (I guess I didn't know about EDDB as a new player, can't remember), and it was a pain, I'll grant you that. On the other hand, I know know of some Jameson-like stations where most modules can be found, and I'm sure someone could easily compile a list near the starter systems right here on the forum for those new players. AFAIK module inventory is relatively stable.

It'll be interesting to see how many people switch from "Elite is unplayable without EDDB" and commit to "I'm done, goodbye!" It's obvious that no amount of defending the playability of the game without 3rd party tools is going to change the minds of those who think otherwise, so I'm done trying. I quit Elite sometime ago and am rather enjoying trade in X4 instead, so it's no matter to me (though I still stand by my previous posts).

Why the change to X4 ? Is the trading better than in Elite or did you start X4 later ?
Trading is only a small part of Elite. Is the game experience better in X4 ? I also have X4, but could not (yet?) inspire me. I then went back to Elite.
... so just as an aside ...

 

[lefty1117]

I've also been playing a lot of X4. For one thing you are far more influential and can really mold things. Which is to be expected in a single player game. But it's quite a different experience from ED so I'm not sure you can fairly compare them. What I'll say about X4 is that it's jankily ambitious and mostly hits it, but at least they're trying.

Regarding EDDB, it's a real shame, the site was an invaluable aid but as we've said going back to the launch of this game - the very fact that these sites have to exist to help people play the game points to the deficiency in the game. We've said it for years. They expect us to believe humanity can travel through hyperspace but they don't have the internet? How did the sanctuary guy thing broadcast his message in realtime before they attacked the thargoid thing and started the war? Did a courier have to fly to every station in the bubble to drop a recording of the message off? It just ... the internal logic isn't there.

 

[Old Duck]

Why the change to X4 ? Is the trading better than in Elite or did you start X4 later ?
Trading is only a small part of Elite. Is the game experience better in X4 ? I also have X4, but could not (yet?) inspire me. I then went back to Elite.
... so just as an aside ...

I don't want to derail this thread, so pose that question over here (link below) and I'll be happy to answer in full:

Game Discussions - X4 this looks Very good

https://www.youtube.com/user/Xuniversechannel This game has so much to offer, It will use Vulcan rendering so big plus for AMD users.. really excited for this:D VR Looks promising too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM3TYjWfjgw Nice voice over review...

forums.frontier.co.uk

But yes, trading is definitely better in X4 IMO.

 

[Jmanis]

It is not unplayable per se, but the 3rd party tools make it so much more enjoyable, since they allow people to loose less time on the activities that are tedious for most people, like wondering around aimlessly looking for modules.

If you're wandering around aimlessly then you don't understand how to find modules.

This is the whole point. The 3rd party tools don't replace tedium, they replace knowledge and understanding. Modules don't just randomly spawn... there's rules that control how and where things spawn. But that doesn't change the fact that a particular ship might be in System A, other modules need you to go to a tech broker in System B, and then you go to System C to do some material trading before going to the engineer in System D.

Third party tools do not change that part of the tedium.... they only mean you don't have to understand the fairly basic rules. Founders World, however, does remove some of that tedium by, in it's case, having all (non-tech-broker) modules in one place. That's not a 3rd party tool though.

ED without 3rd party tools is an exercise in frustration and a consequence of FDev's idea of making every gameplay loop as obscure and/or mind-numbing as possible. So, not unplayable but very close to it for 90% of players.

Explain something that is obscure, and what it should look like instead?

I would have long ago left the game if it weren't for these 3rd party tools. My time is precious and I do not need to waste it in silly time sinks.

What time sinks specifically do 3rd party tools shortcut that otherwise isn't solved by learning how the game works? As I explained above... 3rd party tools don't replace that tedium in most cases. One I'll concede is finding particular mining hotspots... but I don't mine because mining writ-large continues to be (in my opinion) a complete act of tedium which no 3rd party tool would fix.

For example, if you don't understand cheap minerals come from extraction markets, or that black markets spawn in Anarchies, or governments change the legality of goods, yeah, you're in for a rough ride. But simply knowing that, whether in yourself or given by a third party tool, creates or reduces no timesinks at all.

 

[MartinG]

If Frontier had any sense () they'd have bought EDDB, but once again they behave more like the enemy than an ally.

Suing the site out of existence, that would be behaving like an enemy. Let’s not confuse indifference with enmity.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

When it comes to finding modules, I can see where that would be frustrating for the new player. I'm guessing you're Elite rank in something now, so finding modules isn't an issue for you personally. I remember hunting for modules (I guess I didn't know about EDDB as a new player, can't remember), and it was a pain, I'll grant you that. On the other hand, I know know of some Jameson-like stations where most modules can be found, and I'm sure someone could easily compile a list near the starter systems right here on the forum for those new players. AFAIK module inventory is relatively stable.

I am Elite, yes. Triple. I have been Elite in Trade since late 2016, in Exploration since late 2017 and, after several extended periods away from the game throughout the years, I just recently reached Elite in Combat, mostly due to the AX CZs I participated in this Thargoid War. I also remember that ED brought a monumental learning curve just to get my bearings, when I started playing the game back in early 2016.

But being Elite is not really meaningful in terms of finding modules, trade loops, etc... Yes, one has more experience with the game flow, and yes, one learns about behaviors, locations, methodologies, etc... so that some goal can be reached.

But it mainly depends on your purpose, your available time and the methodology that you take on to reach that goal. Some people, like in many other games, for many different reasons, like to go at it barebones hardcore, while others, for many other different reasons, don't. I am somewhat in between.

If no 3rd party tools were available, player variety would suffer or even be severely limited to the barebones hardcore ones, because a lot of others would just not have the
patience or time to invest seriously in the game. And, even if they did, in the long run, it would surely cause frustration and make them quit.

I think the most important fact that comes from the existence of these 3rd party tools is that one is able to choose to use them or not. You choose to play the game one way or the other. With the tools or without.

IMHO, choice is always better. If one likes using them or not. The existence of these tools allows for each one to "blaze their own trail" in-game without sacrificing our RL out of the game. Which frankly, is very much coincident with the philosophy of ED...

In regards to your suggestion of making a beginner's list to compile module locations but not trade loops, etc... to new players, I would counter act with two different type of replies. An in-game lore one and an outside-game one:

1. Shouldn't a society 1300 years in the future, with FTL travelling and FTL long range communication, be uncapable of sharing market data, module locations, etc... among all the CMDRs around? In-game one reads about the Pilots Federation influence, information gathering capabilities and reach. That certainly sounds like they have a very efficient information network able to share data throughout, at least, the Human Bubble. Makes sense that such info would be freely available to all of its members, the CMDRs, that is, us !! The 3rd party tools do just that, externally, by sharing the data from the players themselves. If FDev had embraced the 3rd party developers efforts, they would be available in-game and the game would feel far less frustrating than it does sometimes.
   
   
2. Although FDev included some market tools and identifiers in the galaxy map and at stations (only after huge pression from the community), those tools are, IMHO, clunky and inefficient, and are in no way comparable, in ease of use and ability, to the 3rd party ones. FDev's implementation might seem competent, but it is really no competition.

It'll be interesting to see how many people switch from "Elite is unplayable without EDDB" and commit to "I'm done, goodbye!" It's obvious that no amount of defending the playability of the game without 3rd party tools is going to change the minds of those who think otherwise, so I'm done trying.

Probably some, most will definitely not.

I quit Elite sometime ago and am rather enjoying trade in X4 instead, so it's no matter to me (though I still stand by my previous posts).

I was thinking about trying X4. Never played any of Egosoft's game before, but it seems to be very good. I might not have the time for both X4 and EDO, though...

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

If you're wandering around aimlessly then you don't understand how to find modules.

I actually do. But that is not the point.

This is the whole point. The 3rd party tools don't replace tedium, they replace knowledge and understanding. Modules don't just randomly spawn... there's rules that control how and where things spawn. But that doesn't change the fact that a particular ship might be in System A, other modules need you to go to a tech broker in System B, and then you go to System C to do some material trading before going to the engineer in System D.

So, let me ask you something...

In RL, when you want to buy a new tire for your car, you go to a Goodyear factory, a few hundreds of miles from your home, to purchase one? Or when you want to buy a LG Smart TV, you take a plane to South Korea, then take a taxi to the factory where it is being made? Or if you want to purchase a mango, you take a transatlantic plane to Brazil and then a regional one to the plantation that produces it?

Because that is exactly what we do in-game!!

With the added problem that the Economy of the system does not guarantee the specific size or grade of the module you are looking for. Only the type. Like reaching the mango plantation and having to turn around because their mangos are too small for your taste !!

Information in-game, like in RL, should be advertised by the companies that want to sell you their module !! The information of every module should be sent to you in an advertising communication, directly to your ship, by each firm that wants to sell you stuff. Only then does it make any sense. Because, currently, in-game, it does not. Like most gameplay loops that FDev builds. Is this because it should be like that ? No, it is because they have no clue !!

3rd party tools help alleviate this nonsense by providing accurate information, compiled in databases, supplied with the information gathered in the CMDRs' visits to that particular station.

Third party tools do not change that part of the tedium.... they only mean you don't have to understand the fairly basic rules. Founders World, however, does remove some of that tedium by, in it's case, having all (non-tech-broker) modules in one place. That's not a 3rd party tool though.

Actually, they really do change. They allow me to go directly to purchase the module of the type, grade and size I want and not loose time doing guesswork, when I want to be (shooting ships / exploring / trading / etc...). Less tedium and more fun playing interesting activities.

Jameson Memorial is a concession by FDev, but only to the people who have invested numerous hours in the game (payed them with their own time):

"Now that we think you have suffered enough at our hands, we can give you a lollipop for your loyalty..."

Explain something that is obscure, and what it should look like instead?

Sure!! Read this part again:

Information in-game, like in RL, should be advertised by the companies that want to sell you their module !! The information of every module should be sent to you in an advertising communication, directly to your ship, by each firm that wants to sell you stuff. Only then does it make any sense. Because, currently, in-game, it does not. Like most gameplay loops that FDev builds. Is this because it should be like that ? No, it is because they have no clue !!

What time sinks specifically do 3rd party tools shortcut that otherwise isn't solved by learning how the game works? As I explained above... 3rd party tools don't replace that tedium in most cases. One I'll concede is finding particular mining hotspots... but I don't mine because mining writ-large continues to be (in my opinion) a complete act of tedium which no 3rd party tool would fix.

Read these two parts again:

Economy of the system does not guarantee the specific size or grade of the module you are looking for.

3rd party tools allow me to go directly to purchase the module of the type, grade and size I want and not loose time doing guesswork, when I want to be (shooting ships / exploring / trading / etc...). Less tedium and more fun playing interesting activities.

For example, if you don't understand cheap minerals come from extraction markets, or that black markets spawn in Anarchies, or governments change the legality of goods, yeah, you're in for a rough ride. But simply knowing that, whether in yourself or given by a third party tool, creates or reduces no timesinks at all.

As I have previously explained that is not the case. Extrapolation about station's economies only allow partial information and force you to guesswork. 3rd party tools' gives you all the necessary confirmed information because it comes from other CMDRs' previous visits to that station. No guesswork, just facts about what is really available there.

 

[varonica]

Suing the site out of existence, that would be behaving like an enemy. Let’s not confuse indifference with enmity.

It's not indifference, it's common sense. People say FDEV should buy EDDB, what position does that put them in as regards to responsibility for players using data from EDDB, by owning EDDB they then become responsible if the data isn't correct, or slow to update, or for a million other things players can take offense to. I mean we have players here attacking FDEV for how useless (or so some claim) the in game tools are. All it would mean for FDEV is more complaints about from players about tools they never wrote and shouldn't be held responsible for. Games in general don't purchase third party tools....there's a good reason for that.

 

[Jmanis]

I actually do. But that is not the point.

So you're just being hyperbolic. Good to know the tone.

So, let me ask you something...

In RL, when you want to buy a new tire for your car, you go to a Goodyear factory, a few hundreds of miles from your home, to purchase one? Or when you want to buy a LG Smart TV, you take a plane to South Korea, then take a taxi to the factory where it is being made? Or if you want to purchase a mango, you take a transatlantic plane to Brazil and then a regional one to the plantation that produces it?

Because that is exactly what we do in-game!!

In a game where we travel literal lightyears in minutes, yes, I would.

Going down the shop for milk in the real world takes me longer than it does to travel 100Ly to get a ship fitted out, so your analogy is pretty irrelevant.

With the added problem that the Economy of the system does not guarantee the specific size or grade of the module you are looking for. Only the type. Like reaching the mango plantation and having to turn around because their mangos are too small for your taste !!

I went down the shop to buy apples. They didn't have any I wanted so I bought bananas instead, which were a suitable alternative. I'll come back to this[1]

Information in-game, like in RL, should be advertised by the companies that want to sell you their module !! The information of every module should be sent to you in an advertising communication, directly to your ship, by each firm that wants to sell you stuff. Only then does it make any sense. Because, currently, in-game, it does not. Like most gameplay loops that FDev builds. Is this because it should be like that ? No, it is because they have no clue !!

Given how most stuff works, having every station in the game broadcast it's outfitting availability to you at any time, for every player, sounds like a technical recipe for disaster.

3rd party tools help alleviate this nonsense by providing accurate information, compiled in databases, supplied with the information gathered in the CMDRs' visits to that particular station.

Because these are based off player journals, not in-game information, I actually find them to be pretty inaccurate for my needs. I only used EDDB for broad-strokes theorycrafting.

Actually, they really do change. They allow me to go directly to purchase the module of the type, grade and size I want and not loose time doing guesswork, when I want to be (shooting ships / exploring / trading / etc...). Less tedium and more fun playing interesting activities.

The time doing that guesswork is a one-off cost. Once you know, you know... or are you suggesting you immediately forget where things are the minute you stop interacting with them?

The enduring cost which 3rd party tools can't eliminate and is endemic to the design of activities in Elite is the need to jump all over the place to collect things... unless of course...

Jameson Memorial is a concession by FDev, but only to the people who have invested numerous hours in the game (payed them with their own time):

... you know Jameson isn't the only place like this yeah?

Sure!! Read this part again:

Read these two parts again:

... considering you only just posted these in this same post, not sure how I can read them "again"... but allow me to reiterate.

Finding out what sells something is a one-off cost. Once you've found where it's sold, that's it. You don't need to learn that again. But going back to that location to fit out each ship, every time, 3rd party tools don't help with that. And that's where the mainstay of your time is expended.

I'll concede, it's frustrating that the "tech level" stat that stations have isn't displayed in the game... and some of the more obscure rules that were broadcast at the time for things like AX weaponry (specifically AX, not Guardian) don't help matters. But that's all that's missing.

As I have previously explained that is not the case. Extrapolation about station's economies only allow partial information and force you to guesswork. 3rd party tools' gives you all the necessary confirmed information because it comes from other CMDRs' previous visits to that station. No guesswork, just facts about what is really available there.

Again, do you have specific examples? I'll give you two.

• HE Suits. These have very specific supply and demand conditions such that they'll basically never appear in any high-tech/anything hybrid station, which most HT economies are. Fortunately, they're not that great to trade except for specific missions.
• Palladium. 3rd Party sites won't fix this though because it's a highly botted commodity.

... but that's all I can think of. Anything else can be pretty accurately determined by looking at a station's government, economy and population.

Is this inconvenient? I'd concede sure... but game breaking like some people are suggesting? Absolutely not, and that's the claim being made here... not that 3rd party sites are useless... but that the game is completely unplayable without them. And that's trash. When people say the game is "unplayable" without these tools, what they mean is (something like) "I can't get the absolute top dollar i know exists for these void opals without it"... which ties neatly back to the bit I said I'd come back to...

[1] A common nuance within the ED community seems to be "If I can't achieve something optimally/minmaxed, then it's not worth doing". The first and best example of this was void opals... if you were mining them and not able to sell them immediately for the absolute top dollar they were worth, "Game is broken, can't play it". Same is said for Engineering, Jump Ranges, a whole host of things. And it's all because you know it exists, even if it's not accessible to you. 3rd party tools open the doors to instantly knowing everything about the galaxy. There's definitely a certain naivety about FD's design choices here... it leans heavily on everything being an act of exploration in it's own right.

But to say it is unplayable (and ack you aren't saying this outright, but there's no shortage of people who suggest it is) is outright incorrect, but even your tempered statement of:

It is not unplayable per se, but the 3rd party tools make it so much more enjoyable

... what's your measure of enjoyment here? What's the difference in enjoyment between selling gold for 4,000cr/t profit vs 20,000cr/t profit, when the underlying gameplay is the same, and the economy is such a busted waffle, differences in profit margin such as that are negligible when most commanders are bandying about tens-of-billions in credits?

Is it really affecting your gameplay as much as you're suggesting? Or is it just that you know better exists, and therefore cannot suffer anything but optimal? Just like if you have a Class 8 slot for a cargo rack, nothing but a Class 8 Rack will suffice?

EDIT: And the latter is fine. I suffer that too. I can't bring myself to going into Threat 5/6 Pirate Activity sites knowing the bounties I get from those ships is pennies compared to massacre stacking against novice, unengineered vessels. But that's wholly a different problem unrelated to the availability of in-game information.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Finding out what sells something is a one-off cost.

It’s not universal rule and imo very likely it’s exactly opposite for most players. Personally I like to do something specific in game like is for example: do a mission asking to find some goods or do trading for some profit without need to remember what mechanisms are hidden behind stuff distribution. Without 3rd party tools I will need either much more time to do above mentioned or I will need to keep in mind stuff distribution rules. Very likely both of it. With limited free time at hand it’s both, from my viewpoint, a bad thing and personally I can’t be thankful enough to people like Themroc or Artie (Inara) or other 3rd party tools devs for help me to play this game much more time efficiently.

 

[varonica]

... what's your measure of enjoyment here?

Yeah it essentially all comes down to this one point, what is your measure of enjoyment. I haven't used EDDB or Inara in quite a while, but I do use them sometimes, not having them would be an inconvenience, but it wouldn't lessen my enjoyment in the game, but each to their own.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

EDDB was the condor in the coal mine...

 

[varonica]

EDDB was the condor in the coal mine...

Sorry to tell you, if you found a condor in a coal mine it was probably dead long before it got to where you found it!

 

[Jmanis]

It’s not universal rule and imo very likely it’s exactly opposite for most players. Personally I like to do something specific in game like is for example: do a mission asking to find some goods or do trading for some profit without need to remember what mechanisms are hidden behind stuff distribution. Without 3rd party tools I will need either much more time to do above mentioned or I will need to keep in mind stuff distribution rules. Very likely both of it. With limited free time at hand it’s both, from my viewpoint, a bad thing and personally I can’t be thankful enough to people like Themroc or Artie (Inara) or other 3rd party tools devs for help me to play this game much more time efficiently.

But those rules aren't difficult and they're certainly not hidden. It even says where things come from in-game. Outfitting is a debatable topic for sure, but basic market commodities? Besides HE Suits and those bizzarre not-rare-but-only-in-certain-regions goods (and even then, in-game description literally says where those are), it's straightforward to find anything else.

Tell me what you specifically couldn't find or work out about commodities given knowledge of state, economy, government and, to a degree, population of a station?

 

[Northpin]

I agree, supply/delivery cargo missions are easy enough to do without resorting to external tools
Sure, it may need a learning phase, eventually a pen/paper or excel phase to write down what can be found where - but nothing dramatic

However, what i really liked at EDDB was the clean and non bloated presentation and the fact that searching for a commodity was not limited to like 50ly like it happens on Inara and it was giving min/max values for the entire galaxy, the bodies section (search for rings, materials, etc) - that was brilliant, the modules and ships search section - this is the reason i first time looked for external tools to help with my ED play

 

[aRJay]

…

As I have previously explained that is not the case. Extrapolation about station's economies only allow partial information and force you to guesswork. 3rd party tools' gives you all the necessary confirmed information because it comes from other CMDRs' previous visits to that station. No guesswork, just facts about what is really available there.

That is only partially correct, the information reported is what was there when the reporting commander arrived at or left the station the longer ago that was the more chance the information has to be wrong as subsequent visitors might not have been reporting changes.

 

[Old Duck]

I think the most important fact that comes from the existence of these 3rd party tools is that one is able to choose to use them or not. You choose to play the game one way or the other. With the tools or without.

But there is no longer a choice. At least when it comes to EDDB. The only choice now is to:

1. Find an alternative 3rd party replacement for EDDB. If there is such a thing, then why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
2. Learn the play Elite using in-game tools and knowledge of game mechanics (my argument).
3. Rage quit because "Elite is unplayable without EDDB".

It's not like I came to this thread when EDDB was alive and well and said, "You're all a bunch of cheaters! Shut down EDDB now!!" No. I was just following the news (the most interesting thing in Elite these days) when I started seeing all these doom threads based on objectively false claims. Heck, it's not like I'm a fanboy or white knight of Elite, but I do like to stand up for the truth, and "Elite is unplayable without EDDB" is not truth.

* That's not to say your own arguments are without merit. I actually agree with much if not most of what you said.

 

[Martind Forlon]

But those rules aren't difficult and they're certainly not hidden. It even says where things come from in-game. Outfitting is a debatable topic for sure, but basic market commodities? Besides HE Suits and those bizzarre not-rare-but-only-in-certain-regions goods (and even then, in-game description literally says where those are), it's straightforward to find anything else.

Tell me what you specifically couldn't find or work out about commodities given knowledge of state, economy, government and, to a degree, population of a station?

So, you want to say that for player is/was faster using ingame mechanics for find sources with short sc flight and guaranteed amount of goods as was few clicks at eddb? I nowhere said that play without 3rd tools is impossible. I’m saying that using them allows me to play much more time efficiently. Between those two sentences is at least for me a huge difference.

 

[nepomuk]

But there is no longer a choice. At least when it comes to EDDB. The only choice now is to:

1. Find an alternative 3rd party replacement for EDDB. If there is such a thing, then why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
2. Learn the play Elite using in-game tools and knowledge of game mechanics (my argument).
3. Rage quit because "Elite is unplayable without EDDB".

It's not like I came to this thread when EDDB was alive and well and said, "You're all a bunch of cheaters! Shut down EDDB now!!" No. I was just following the news (the most interesting thing in Elite these days) when I started seeing all these doom threads based on objectively false claims. Heck, it's not like I'm a fanboy or white knight of Elite, but I do like to stand up for the truth, and "Elite is unplayable without EDDB" is not truth.

* That's not to say your own arguments are without merit. I actually agree with much if not most of what you said.

Hi @Old Duck, you are persistent.
The trade does not seem to me to be the problem, rather the search for the modules, certain celestial bodies etc..
But well, eddb.io is gone and what do you think what I did now ...
I haven't played intensively for a long time. I was more concerned with EDDI and its translation. But now a point has come that I want to test.
I have reset my second FD account and will play Elite without tools.
Let's see how that works and if it's fun, because that's the most important thing.

And X4 I also got out again ...