Colonisation Answers

[KKomrade Sylas]

That certainly seems to be their initial plan - and I can think of some complexities - detention centres, for example - which might make non-bubble colonies trickier.

It seems fairly clear from what they've said that "10 LY" and "start from the bubble" are "so you players can't break things too badly in week 1" - how much those get relaxed later will probably depend on how long it takes to fix it after the obvious thing happens.

That all makes sense though it isn't exactly what I mean. The way they replied to the question, saying "yes and no". They said you'd have to begin the process from the bubble, but the way they explained it, as in, "then you can colonize 10 light years from the bubble, and then another 10 light years, etc... so you're gonna have to start out from the bubble", but then they also said "eventually yes you will be able to start colonize anywhere that has a human station within radius" is super confusing, because he didn't imply this is something they'll "allow" later on and we're just starting small, but that this is something you'll eventually be able to do on your own. Almost as if Zac was answering a different question.

I can't shake off the feeling that he interpreted the comment as if asking about the range of the colonization bubble from any particular station, instead of the real intent of the question of "Will we be able to colonize from the station in the Crescent nebula, Colonia, the Colonia Bridge stations, etc?"

He kept saying eventually you'll be able to go wherever you want but that wasn't really the question. Seems like a huge communication mishap here. All that he said we already knew, but he really wasn't clear enough on whether or not we'd be able to start out colonization from Colonia or deep space outposts. Do these systems not have a colonization contact?

Obviously something you can't answer, Ian. (For once something you may not know the answer to, I think I'll start hoarding water for the apocalypse). But I just really want Zac to clarify and I don't know how to get him to

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If we divide that by the 10ly range then I think we have around 28260 systems that could be current starting points from which we could begin our colonisation efforts.
This is a complete guesstimate but let's say each one of those has 2 or 3 systems within 10ly that only it could colonise.
That means there's something like 70,000 systems up for grabs on day 1.

I think that's probably a bit on the high side for "edge of bubble systems".
- there are only 20,000 populated systems total in the bubble
- the bubble's radius is closer to 200 LY
- something like 2,500 inhabited systems might be considered "edge" systems in that sense.
- especially away from the galactic plane, 10 LY might leave a system with no neighbours at all, or only one, quite a lot of the time.

Including in-fill of the existing bubble (depending on what the minimum distance from Sol is to get a colonisation contact!) there might be 70,000 but probably under 10,000 for actual outward expansion.

Is it a desire to explicitly be disconnected from the bubble in terms of trade/BGS/Powerplay etc

I think that's largely the key - whether disconnected by 1000 LY or by 50000 LY is probably less important.

The bubble has about 20,000 inhabited systems, but already probably 1 in 8 get fewer than one visitor a week (and that includes just people passing through on a hyperspace route to elsewhere), and maybe only half get enough players visiting that anyone much would notice if they disappeared. So adding extra systems around the bubble just seems a bit superfluous unless there's a system-destroying force added to balance that out (and it doesn't seem from this latest stream like there will be one) - it'll just spread players out even more and therefore make the BGS-in-the-background-sense even less interesting for market pricing, combat opportunities, missions, etc. as an even higher percentage of systems get stuck in permanent State: None

At best it can be a really silly solution to the Powerplay balance problem (i.e. it doesn't "really" matter if Powerplay is balanced heavily in favour of reinforcement over undermining so long as the total inhabited system count is increasing even faster than that)

Whereas at least out in deep space you do have an automatically meaningful answer to "why do we need another industrial station here?" of "so we don't have a 20000 LY round trip to get the supplies to build the station after that" and some automatically emerging phasing of going from struggling to establish a settlement at all to having something viable but which still needs most supplies bringing in, to something fully self-sufficient which can expand itself.

The talk on the stream of maybe wanting to build up intermediate points on the chain really only makes sense with colonies thousands of LY from the bubble, so I'm pretty certain that Frontier want the 10 LY range to be a temporary thing just so we can't do much damage while the issues are ironed out and will be relaxing it somewhat later to enable that longer-range colonisation.

 

[Alec Turner]

OK, so here's a thought. How about if Colonisation phase 1 is about systems that can only sustain themselves by being connected to the supply chain that is the rest of the bubble (and maybe Colonia too in due course?), and then later in the year they announce "Deep space colonisation" (which might cost more) where you can initially establish a self sustaining mining economy anywhere you want (perhaps with a 500ly minimum distance away from populated space rather than a maximum distance) from which phase 1 style colonisation can also then grow outwards?

 

[Rubbernuke]

OK, so here's a thought. How about if Colonisation phase 1 is about systems that can only sustain themselves by being connected to the supply chain that is the rest of the bubble (and maybe Colonia too in due course?), and then later in the year they announce "Deep space colonisation" (which might cost more) where you can initially establish a self sustaining mining economy anywhere you want (perhaps with a 500ly minimum distance away from populated space rather than a maximum distance) from which phase 1 style colonisation can also then grow outwards?

Or why not just reuse what we have? For example repurpose CGs where you stockpile goods and the higher the tier the further you can go? That way its a matter of prep work.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I'm curious, what do the folks who are so sure 10ly is not enough actually want to do?

Is it a desire to explicitly be disconnected from the bubble in terms of trade/BGS/Powerplay etc (in which case yeah, I guess that's not what Frontier are doing with this) or is it mostly because you have a specific, very scenic system/planet in mind that you wanted to be the first to colonise?

If the latter, then I do wonder how sure we are that there aren't plenty of nice places within a few multiples of 10ly around the edges of the existing bubble.

I've tried to do some maths.
The radius of the bubble is approx. 150ly.
That means the surface area of the bubble (4πr²) is about 282600ly².
If we divide that by the 10ly range then I think we have around 28260 systems that could be current starting points from which we could begin our colonisation efforts.
This is a complete guesstimate but let's say each one of those has 2 or 3 systems within 10ly that only it could colonise.
That means there's something like 70,000 systems up for grabs on day 1.
Someone PLEASE check my maths but that sounds like a lot of systems to dismiss as "uninteresting".

Í think it's partly about building your own little isolated bubble disconnected from somewhere else. It's not too dissimilar to when someone plays Stellaris with a mod that makes them start out in their own mini galaxy that has a few systems compared to the rest of it. But it does make you feel more isolated and more secure in the game.

Think also from a BGS perspective, BGS squadrons are always annoyed at random passerbys affecting their systems. Just look at all the complaints about factions rising to 75% lately. In your own isolated bubble you have constant, never-ending options to expand the reach of your faction without interference, not from other factions competing for the systems around you, not from other factions expanding around in your area, and not from other players unwittingly messing up your BGS efforts.

A squadron might want to simply have their own little bubble of systems, actually bubble-shaped, extending out from somewhere. That is obviously a long term goal, but you can't get very far 10 light years at a time. It's not just about having your own systems but these systems also having their own place geographically. Think a nebulae or something.

Not to mention that, if you want to beeline somewhere, 10 light years is pretty restrictive depending on stellar density and geography. Even just 20 light years would give you more leeway to find star systems that properly head out in a particular direction instead of having to zig zag because the only system that's really in the direction you're going is 11 light years away from the system you just built.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi All

So, a test in the live servers, that anyone can take part in, with permanent results.

Doesn't sound like a beta to me. A beta to me is a testing phase on a separate server either with a select group (a closed beta) or anyone who wants to (an open beta). Doing it live (yes, I am referencing the meme), sounds more like a soft rollout.

From my point of view it seems like a recipe for disaster, I'm trying to get my head around what will be left in the live game as regards possibly unalterable consequences of player actions in trying out (and possibly failing with) the new features.

It's a beta test of a new concept of beta: a beta beta, or meta beta, if you prefer.

Hey!...now you're just trying to confuse me some more! ....

Hi Alec

I guess it's beta in that Frontier are acknowledging it requires large scale testing and that there will likely be some tweaking to numbers, etc during and/or at the end of the "beta" phase.

I think it's absolutely the right thing to make it so that colonisation efforts during the beta phase don't get wiped. I speculated on Lave Radio about how perhaps PowerPlay 2.0 could have perhaps done with a beta test (although in fact I feel like they managed to resolve a lot of the issues there pretty quickly). The problem I saw with it tho' is that, by its very nature, testing of something like PowerPlay (or Colonisation) requires people to properly invest time in doing it and nobody (aside from perhaps a very dedicated few) would do that if they thought their efforts were going to be wiped or lost at the end.

I can see your point about players not investing their time if their efforts were going to be wiped, but countering that point (as I've hinted above) what happens to these perhaps permanent effects players actions will have on the game. For example, what happens to those systems initially whereby what was intended doesn't play out as expected?
Will the Frontier Developers be able to rectify any of these systems problems if what ensues doesn't actually follow the expected plan.
I'm just thinking about those initial systems that are a 'trial and error' sort of thing in the beta, which in some instances, maybe a more common than rare occurrence. The worst case scenario with this might be that the nearest systems to the bubble, and initially because these systems would be the most altered because of the cap on distance, and thereby the first systems players will have to choose from, might become 'half finished'. Once the player has claimed those systems then it concerns me that those systems might become unusable for any follow on meaningful gameplay.
At least with a wipe these discrepancies can be deleted, once the 'features' become stable and the features start to work as intended for everybody.
If everything performs well according to the main development design then the full feature could be released out of beta, every player could then start out on a level playing field, with their colonisation projects.
We all make mistakes at some point in the game, I'd hate to think my actions in this regard might impact in a negative way for other players using this feature, especially if that was not my intention.

Jack

 

[Viajero]

So colonisation just for the sake of it.

Disappointing, if I'm honest.

Yeah, while the possibility to design the system so you can maximize profit from it with existing mechanics is a reasonable incentive, and actually creating your own footholds in the galaxy, supporting further exploration etc, can be already attractive enough for many on its own right, I think something more meaty would make the feature even more attractive and welcome for most players:

A cut of trade in system (much like Fleet Carriers), additional BGS or PP bonuses for factions to be decided by the architect, for example or some such. Raise colonization costs and materials needed accordingly to that extra potential reward and away we go.

 

[Ohanka]

seems it's just about giving PMFs more systems, space is littered with their systems as is.

 

[amigacooke]

It's a beta test of a new concept of beta: a beta beta, or meta beta, if you prefer.

A better beta?

 

[Jmanis]

So it's just "placing new assets without FD intervention". That was pretty obvious.

Popular systems claim
First-come first-served gold-rush. You can be architect for multiple systems, but only in initial claim for one at once, which will slow down individuals from collecting too many good ones personally.
Failing initial claim twice in a row locks you out temporarily.

Colonise with specific faction
Get a faction out there through normal BGS expansion so you can

I wonder if FD have thought about the whole "Each player can be an architect" aspect... because while I see these things as being more liability than anything for a PMF... is there anything that would stop, say, 100 players who support one faction each colonising a single system, and suddenly that faction now occupies a hundred new systems?

Like... whatever, but that could cause a lot of homogeneity through a concerted effort, which feels the opposite of the BGS.

 

[Robert Maynard]

.. is there anything that would stop, say, 100 players who support one faction each colonising a single system, and suddenly that faction now occupies a hundred new systems?

Apparently not - not that we're going to run out of systems any time soon - and those 100 systems would be subject to BGS rules so the Faction would need to defend them all to stay in control....

 

[Jmanis]

Apparently not - not that we're going to run out of systems any time soon - and those 100 systems would be subject to BGS rules so the Faction would need to defend them all to stay in control....

Oh yeah, like, it feels like a massive liability for a group to do something like that... but it just feels like it goes against the nature of the BGS to analogously "cover the universe in cement".

However, I strongly suspect that any faction that seeds a new system, won't be able to be retreated from it. Otherwise you risk some really weird stuff.

 

[varonica]

The other camp are the explorers, who take pride in being as far away from all of the Bubble antics as possible. These players want to break away from the BGS and PowerPlay and set up shop pretty much anywhere, typically somewhere pretty they've found, and create a subset of a few systems as an outpost Bubble in the black where they can live in peace.

Thing is, as an explorer, that's 100% not what I would have any interest in, why would an explorer want to set up a permanent home anywhere? Surely that's what huge mobile bases are for?

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

seems it's just about giving PMFs more systems, space is littered with their systems as is.

Wouldn't be a problem if Frontier actually stuck with the idea that factions had to be at least lore accurate or lore-adjacent when creating their faction. Instead there's a lot of PMF's that are just named after countries. No shade since most of the time these factions are managed by really nice and likeable players, but it is really immersion breaking when you go to a system and it's controlled by the Brazilian Skibidi Gooners or something.

Not to mention the average PMF is often just an incredibly uninspiring independent corporate faction that has "um we're umm a pmc/mercenaries" as its background lore

 

[CMDR Snailman]

I'm curious, what do the folks who are so sure 10ly is not enough actually want to do?

I want to colonize a place I have discovered while roaming the galaxy. I dreamt of colonization being the next step of exploration, not Powerplay or BGS.
As a matter of fact, earlier this year I went back to my first discovered ELW ever, which happens to be ~ 9K LY away from Sol, and systematically explored a radius of 20LY. May sound not much, but that's almost 200 systems and took me quite some time. That's the place I would like to colonize. It's the 'romantic' approach to colonisation, I guess

But even my first ever discovered system (a few barren ice chunks) is an almost unreachable 900 LY away from Sol.


To me, a 10LY distance limit feels gives me the choice to settle in the next vacant lot in some US suburban hellscape.

 

[CMDR Daiyus]

Thing is, as an explorer, that's 100% not what I would have any interest in, why would an explorer want to set up a permanent home anywhere? Surely that's what huge mobile bases are for?

Then surely the idea of any type of colonisation isn't going to be gameplay you'd have much interest in? Which is fine of course, the true nomadic explorers with their fleet carriers probably won't have much of a stake in any colonisation effort. Not all features are for all players. Perhaps I should have included the third group of players that don't want to be tied to a system at all, but I feel that group doesn't really have a horse in this race.

It's clear that there are explorers who want to go out and create mini-bubbles in pretty places. Maybe to create Tritium depots? Or just to have somewhere to come back to on occasions? I don't know, but there's plenty of examples of players stating that's what they want.

Just out of interest, in case I have completely missed an obvious point; what would you, as a nomadic explorer, like from colonisation?

 

[Knuttin Atoll]

I'm curious, what do the folks who are so sure 10ly is not enough actually want to do?

Is it a desire to explicitly be disconnected from the bubble in terms of trade/BGS/Powerplay etc (in which case yeah, I guess that's not what Frontier are doing with this) or is it mostly because you have a specific, very scenic system/planet in mind that you wanted to be the first to colonise?

If the latter, then I do wonder how sure we are that there aren't plenty of nice places within a few multiples of 10ly around the edges of the existing bubble.

I've tried to do some maths.
The radius of the bubble is approx. 150ly.
That means the surface area of the bubble (4πr²) is about 282600ly².
If we divide that by the 10ly range then I think we have around 28260 systems that could be current starting points from which we could begin our colonisation efforts.
This is a complete guesstimate but let's say each one of those has 2 or 3 systems within 10ly that only it could colonise.
That means there's something like 70,000 systems up for grabs on day 1.
Someone PLEASE check my maths but that sounds like a lot of systems to dismiss as "uninteresting".

For me it's pretty much the second paragraph in your post. Assuming that long distance colonisation would be soloable (say, 2-3 back and forth trips of fully loaded FCs would be my personal pain barrier, and I'd have to save up for a FC first also), I'd find a pretty system with various mod cons (pretty atmo planet with interesting topography, a non-landable planet with a nice texture - doesn't have to be an ELW, decent access to metallic and icy rings) and likely within or at least nearby a nebula.

I'd then create a couple additional systems near it, in the hope that the BGS would throw up a decent selection of missions (ship and ground) to keep myself mildly busy when I visit. This system should probably be a few thousand LY away to feel like a remote island of sorts.

It would give me a reason to do stuff in the game, while having a visible impact on it also. But I wouldn't want to daisychain my way to the ultimate destination. Because while my idea above is nice, it's not worth the kind of grind FDev's current vision of the system would result in.

 

[Danieros]

It is pretty unfortunate that there is no grace period for the commanders who first discovered the system to become its architects...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Apparently not - not that we're going to run out of systems any time soon - and those 100 systems would be subject to BGS rules so the Faction would need to defend them all to stay in control....

Though the question there is "defend them from who?".

If they chain outwards from the bubble a bit first, any attacker will have to follow them up the chain using the BGS expansion rules to reach them. Breaking some of the intermediate links by deliberately exhausting their expansion cubes (easy, since your faction is likely already in all those systems) stops that happening.

Certainly, of course, that could eventually be bypassed by another faction creating another chain to make a new connection - but at this point their attacker is required to be:
- a faction which is capable of using the colonisation mechanism to create new systems for itself at some reasonable rate
- and yet doesn't just also use that to get its next 50 systems rather than picking a fight over a different set of 50 systems

Meanwhile a carefully set-up system should be essentially self-reinforcing under passing traffic, not that there's likely to be any of that in the first place.

Like... whatever, but that could cause a lot of homogeneity through a concerted effort

Yes. I think there'd probably need to be two changes made to counter that:
1) Minor faction fines and bounties get localised to the single system incurred in, so you no longer get locked out of 100 systems for a single offence
2) Effects of player actions on BGS states get turned up to ridiculous levels so that the dilution of player activity keeps things moving

However, I strongly suspect that any faction that seeds a new system, won't be able to be retreated from it. Otherwise you risk some really weird stuff.

The implication is that they will - everything seems to be "once you create a system, normal BGS rules apply", and every faction is only native to one system each. Of course, a retreat could only happen if at least three other factions also got into the system, which probably is sufficient to stop most oddities.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I want to colonize a place I have discovered while roaming the galaxy. I dreamt of colonization being the next step of exploration, not Powerplay or BGS.
As a matter of fact, earlier this year I went back to my first discovered ELW ever, which happens to be ~ 9K LY away from Sol, and systematically explored a radius of 20LY. May sound not much, but that's almost 200 systems and took me quite some time. That's the place I would like to colonize. It's the 'romantic' approach to colonisation, I guess

But even my first ever discovered system (a few barren ice chunks) is an almost unreachable 900 LY away from Sol.


To me, a 10LY distance limit feels gives me the choice to settle in the next vacant lot in some US suburban hellscape.

That's exactly the way I explore too! I park my carrier somewhere and I just explore a bubble around it. There's so many systems you find dozens of ELW's in a really tiny patch of space. I hoped to colonize that, too. All the systems already have my name anyway