Combat is way too hard - getting too frustrated with ED

[Technotica]

This is a sandbox game, that means it is a game that tries to create a virtual world for us to play in and as in a real world there will be people who are particularly good or bad at certain aspects of the game.

Some might be a genius at finding the most profitable trade routs, others will be combat aces that can kill every foe and some will be really bad at combat and barely be able to survive it.

That is the fun in a sandbox, this is not a theme park, we need people who are good at things and bad at things for an immersive world.

If FD made everything easy enough so that everyone could do it equally well, how boring would that be?


You can't defeat an NPC in combat? Don't ask for things to be made easier, train your skills and become better!

Don't expect to be an elite bounty hunter if you can barely fly your ship straight, become a trader or an explorer, get help defeating the enemy, find combat pilots to protect you etc.

 

[duffbeeeer]

The clever games have difficulty levels then you cater for everyone, but common sense passed the devs by and they seem hell bent on making a game so tedious no one will play it.

Glad that we had a Kickstarter Campaign that ensured that there is enough demand for that kind of game. You know the whole idea of this project is to make a game the maker wants to play and not to cater to some casual crowd. I think you missed the whole point of the game.

 

[Tox Laximus]

Glad that we had a Kickstarter Campaign that ensured that there is enough demand for that kind of game. You know the whole idea of this project is to make a game the maker wants to play and not to cater to some casual crowd. I think you missed the whole point of the game.

You missed the point completely, you can have both.

Casual is where the money is, why limit sales?

 

[duffbeeeer]

You missed the point completely, you can have both.

Casual is where the money is, why limit sales?

Because this project was never about the money in the first place, otherwise we already would have dumbed down Elite years ago. No publisher wanted to make this game for a decade because Frontier was not willing to dumb it down. They made the kickstarter to proof the idea and now you come around and want it to get it dumbed down because of sale numbers? Pls go educate yourself a bit about the history of Elite.

 

[Ramireza]

You missed the point completely, you can have both.

Casual is where the money is, why limit sales?

Divinity Original Sin (and deep, Oldskool RPG with hard combat and many non voiced text dialoges) sold 760K units until now. I am pretty sure that ED do not need any "casual gamers", they should stay away from Elite.

Another important point : THIS GAME IS FINANCED (well, partly) by ppl that want a deep, nerdy Space Game, not an Game with apeal to casual gamers or the mass market.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Somewhere between alpha 1 and today, Frontier screwed up the new player experience. Those missions are really horribly balanced now, and I'm not surprised new players are finding it frustrating.

Going into the waste canister scenario, the canisters now appear to be heavily armoured, and even players just getting to grips with the controls get bored by the time they've finished destroying them. This is embarrassing to watch on Twitch!

As a massive difficulty spike, the Crimson Triumph scenario comes too early. In alpha 1 there was the multiple Condors difficulty spike, but that was quite easy to overcome once you knew the missile tactic.

I think Frontier made a bit of a mistake not going back and ensuring the scenarios made for a good demo. It won't have a lasting consequence though, so not a huge deal. I think they do need to figure out how they're going to make the new player experience for the game itself less hardcore though. If they want the biggest success, they should make the game reasonably casual friendly in the starter areas, and more hardcore as you progress away from there.

David Braben sometimes talks about how they've tried to design it so that new players don't need to use things like the power-distributor, but then they arm you with a pulse-laser that quickly overheats unless you put four pips into weapons.... In some respects I think a multi-cannon would be a better starter weapon.

 

[Ramireza]

but then they arm you with a pulse-laser that quickly overheats unless you put four pips into weapons

Excuse me, but even as a new player such things should be doable and reasonable. If THIS is to hard to find out... well, then all hope is lost.

By the way : " If they want the biggest success" then they should make the next kinectimals for the XBone. Elite is far, FAR more then just making a game to earn some money, DB said this severeal times.

Excuse me, if someone REALY says that ED is not accessible enough for "new players", then this game is not the right game for this Person. An no, ED is NOT hard, its easy to learn Game but with alot of deph. In the end it is NOT Rocket Science, everybody should be able to do basic steps after 1 - 2 hours.

My God, what happened to gamers these days? It realy seems that Call of Duty, Battlefield and World of Warcraft lowered the IQ of the common gamer by 30 points.

 

[JonnyC0mbat]

Personally I love the combat at the moment.

You actually have to make vital split second decisions that determine whether you survive or not.

An example of this happened last night in a high intensity combat zone. I shot down 10 Federal fighters and got way too cocky. Got stuck into a furball of 2 vs 1 and got my butt handed to me. I started taking hits so put all cooling into the engine and systems and jumped out of there with 15% hull remaining.

That's happened to me before and previously I opted to continue to push a position of disadvantage, leading to my firey death.

Games should be hard, and there is no sense of satisfaction when a game is easy. Elite is striking a good balance between fun and frustration, mainly because frustration is caused by our own stupid mistakes.

 

[Memnoch]

I thought I had imagined the hardened cannisters when I played through the missions again. They really take a pounding now.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

My God, what happened to gamers these days? It realy seems that Call of Duty, Battlefield and World of Warcraft lowered the IQ of the common gamer by 30 points.

Introducing players to new concepts over time is pretty standard game design. It happened in Tie Fighter and Freespace, and all those other classics of the genre... Not really convinced you've thought this through analytically, so it hardly seems worth arguing out with you.

 

[Sanguisaevum]

Thrust

The Crimson Triumph mission is there to teach you about how applying vertical and lateral thrust during a dog fight effects your maneuverability.

CT himself uses TONS of thrust based maneuvers... which is why he is so difficult to kill.

Not being able to kill him, isn't really a bad thing, to be honest. I have yet to come across more than a handfull of AI pilots in game that are anywhere near as proficcient as Mr Triumph.

Lateral thrusting is an advanced combat technique... and by no means NEEDED to enjoy the game.

Don't beat yourself up about it, fella.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Not sure I agree with you there Slawkenbergius. The Crimson Triumph is much easier to beat now than he was in Alpha. Back then I used to win maybe 50% of the encounters, I've yet to lose to him in this version (5/5 to me so far). In premium beta 2.02 he was very hard I was struggling to win more than 25% of the encounters. Ok, I'm a much better pilot now than I was a month or so ago but I still think there has been a definite reduction in difficulty for the AI since Beta 1.0 started.

It does take a while to learn the key mechanics especially how to handle your power, which unfortunately is vital in a Sidewinder (I'm not sure the sidewinder is actually a good choice for the starter ship, I think something similar to the Eagle would have been much more suitable starter vessel). The test scenarios do try and explain the basics to you, although a proper tutorial will be needed for the final release.

 

[Rubbernuke]

My only complaint about the AI is the ramming- for me the range of AI seen is nice. If they can add a self peservation property things would improve.

Perhaps in offline mode a difficulty flag could be set, from easy opponents to the whole galaxy being Elite? For Ironman I would love a mode that sets the AI to Dangerous and above (to really test your reflexes!).

 

[Ramireza]

Introducing players to new concepts over time is pretty standard game design. It happened in Tie Fighter and Freespace, and all those other classics of the genre... Not really convinced you've thought this through analytically, so it hardly seems worth arguing out with you.

Games back then (Tie Fighter) where much harder and less accessible. It seems that you have forget how complicated Tie Fighter was. Furhter : In ED we are still about an early beta, of course there is stuff missing.

Another point from my unreflected mind :

Look at one of the BIGGEST successes in gaming history, Minecraft. This game explained you NOTHING, you have to find out all on yourself and without the Tutorials written by other players online.

 

[bassman]

Heh, with the minimum of roll + pitch as well. I don't think you rolled to aim until 1:30, doing it all with yaw instead. Nerf yaw more please, Mike, bassman demonstrates it's overpowered!

To the OP: notice how, when CT is flying towards the ship, bassman starts to turn around long before CT passes him, so he is on CT's tail very quickly and has lots of time to shoot him.

Makes me laugh when people complain about how there isn't enough yaw. And your right that I initiate the turn early, of course that would a more risky tactic vs a human player but thats the beauty of the game - every move has a counter move. Its also vital to be able to read the scanner properly so you know your turning in exactly the right direction.

I guess the key to beating CT is to not chicken out of the head on runs, if you panic and over evade or run he will get more shots on you.

 

[ExtremeParanoid]

I've spent several hours trying to kill Crimson Triumph with no joy. I've seen all the comments about practicing combat lots and using a HOTA joystick set-up but I have to say that I am not a seasoned gamer, I don't have lots of hours to invest in practicing (I have a family and a full time job), and I'm not willing to shell out lots of cash on fancy controller set ups.

I have no problem with the trading, general flight and docking aspects of ED (using xbox controller) but if a basic combat scenario is so hard I am not going to be able to pick up this game and noodle around on it when I do get chance to grab a free hour or so.

Most attempts on that mission I do not even get to reduce his hull % at all, let alone get near destroying him. It's leaving me very frustrated. I was an avid Elite player back in the day and was very excited to jump on the Kickstarter campaign, but this frustration is making me think it was money poorly invested.

Yes, I saw the thread on how modern console games have "ruined" realistic games, and I get there is a crowd that loves realism and has plenty of time and motivation to invest in getting skilled, but for us with limited time and want a more of a drop-in/drop-out gaming experience ED is going to be very disappointing.

I really hope this improves as the beta progresses, otherwise it is going to end up a very niche game with a select (highly skilled) audience...


Just my two cents, having been on the betas for a little while now...

I am tiered of guys whining about the Level of difficulty without understanding the game

USE YOUR BRAIN AND STUDY THE GAME MECHANICS !!!

The combat is NOT about having super reflexes and flying crasy loops. It is not to have the pefect rigs.
It is to use the correct TOOLS for the special situations:

- the guy is behind you: minus 100 speed
- the guy in front of you and firing like hell: full pips to shields and boost
- you want to be on his six: flight assist off turn (with boost)

and so on ...

Instead of playing days over days and loose your mind spend just an hour and read the game machanics and watch some YouTube videos.
Afterwards you will kill this looser AI with ease

The problem today is that nobody wants to read the instructions and the new cash and carry cupboard falls appart because a real man never need instructions or support

 

[.Stu.]

magic unicorn for me please and a big red arrow point to a system that is magically pulsing.

..and this is a good thing.

The casual crowd has twenty years of knuckle dragging games to play already, nobody is going to miss them if they pass this one up.

If you expect to have a magic unicorn crap purple loot on your chest just for logging in, this is not the game for you.

 

[OldFartPhil]

I see a LOT of bigheads on here who are avoiding the fact that ED is a GAME , games are MEANT to be played for FUN and ENJOYMENT . I played the original back in the day on C64 and Frontier on an Amiga 1200 and both were fun enjoyable but involved games , Frontier was more of a simulator and used actual Newtonian physics but the control system was EASY to pick up . Do you people really think that in an advanced future with spaceships designed for combat that the controls wouldn't be made as simple and easy as possible for the pilot ? You Nerds / difficulty fanboys need to extract your heads from your rear portions and see the reality of this situation .

 

[DCello]

People are completely missing the point of the game: a simulator is never meant to be hard, 'tis meant to be complex. It's meant to simulate. Hard games employ stupid mechanics like Super Mario or those punishing indie games, and they don't simulate anything except frustration.

If people want to have fun in Elite, they should be allowed to do so. Making the beginning of the game simple so people can learn how to play it better benefits everybody, providing more fun and encouragement to new players and overall increasing the skill level of newcomers. ED needs a better starter experience.

 

[DDC]

This thread is nearly 6 months old, and things have changed since beta guys...