Combat Loggers... how many are there!!!! What kind of punishment do they receive and when?

[shambles1980]

TOS say using an exploit cheat hack and a few other things can get you banned.
because some pleople couldnt figure out what "exploit covers"
the devs came on the forums and explained YES COMBAT LOGGING IS AN EXPLOIT.

So yes its in the rules and tos.
you just chose to imagine its not because its under the blanket term "exploit" rather than "combat logging" specifically.

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It's up to Frontier to enforce the rules as they see fit. It's not a problem that's going to be fixed by you typing your outrage into this forum. But since all the people here writing justifications for their supposed logging are upset about "griefers" attacking them without any interest in either bounty or cargo, the 'victims' of combat logging aren't losing anything other than satifaction. So it's really not worth getting so upset about.

and it is not the case..
the grifers are the ones mostly combat logging, the defenders very well may be the grifers them selfs for all i know and trying to claim that only the weak combat log, when truth is the chances of a griefer combat logging is immeasurably higher than a newb or a trader.


"i actually think i may be on to something here!.. CUNNING! defend combat logging claiming grifers make you do it, whilst all along you are the griefer!"

I will now think any one who defends combat logging is a newb killer.

 

[Mohrgan]

We are all aware of FD's statement. What I am pointing out is the drama created by this simple annoyance is out of proportion to the crime. If you all just need a group hug over it, that's cool but, why let something out of your control interfere with your enjoyment of the game? Count it as a win, and move on. You'll feel better in the long run.

 

[Sir.Tj]

No more personal comments please,

Discuss the post not the poster in a civil way.

I will have no problem in closing the thread if it continues.

 

[Kaerakh]

It's up to Frontier to enforce the rules as they see fit. It's not a problem that's going to be fixed by you typing your outrage into this forum. But since all the people here writing justifications for their supposed logging are upset about "griefers" attacking them without any interest in either bounty or cargo, the 'victims' of combat logging aren't losing anything other than satifaction. So it's really not worth getting so upset about.

As I mentioned some epoch ago in this thread, proper discussion of ideas is what 'gets me jimmies off'. I love discussing this with people who actually bring ideas and information to the table rather than 'I'm offended so shut up'. Criticism is a tool like any other in conversation. It's an opportunity to expose a weak idea or show how good a strong one is.

I would have left a long time ago if I wasn't enjoying something from this.

 

[Iain L]

the grifers are the ones mostly combat logging, the defenders very well may be the grifers them selfs for all i know and trying to claim that only the weak combat log, when truth is the chances of a griefer combat logging is immeasurably higher than a newb or a trader.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. But then, my impression was that people weren't generally using "griefer" to describe all attacks, but specifically those on people in no position to either defend themselves or offer anything to gain from the kill (i.e. no bounty). So it hadn't even occurred to me that PvP behaving in a "griefing" way would have cause to not only bug out, but do so through anything so desperate as cheating to skip the 15 second timer.

In which case, I stand corrected.

 

[StuF]

My how those goal posts sprinted.

Not sure what you mean?

 

[shambles1980]

to move the goal posts, is a saying that means that you set a target then when it was acheived you changed your mind about what the target should have been and so "moved the goal posts"

im sure you can infer what he means from understanding that.

 

[Iain L]

As I mentioned some epoch ago in this thread, proper discussion of ideas is what 'gets me jimmies off'.

Ah, well if you're just shooting the breeze for the fun of an argument, don't let me stop you. I'm just saying that while I recognise it can be a problem, and is against the rules of the game, it's not up to us to enforce said rules, and seems like a pretty minor problem from where I'm sat; even the worst case scenario of someone logging while in a RES with a massive bounty that you've been denied just robs you of the potential of extra funds. It's not like the problems we've had in the past due to exploitation of the ramming mechanics where someone can get your own expensive craft blown up and therefore take away money you already have.

 

[shambles1980]

you have to fix the little things too you know.
And the more noise mad the sooner they may fix it. they do say they are acting on the reports and "they do and have" acted on them which implies some people have felt the repercussions of their actions.

Personally i have only seen one thread with some one saying they were banned due to combat logging and they said it was a storm.
But for all i know that was just a hypothetical situation the post was TL;DR fodder..

but my reply was. take your lumps and thank the combat loggers for making the system we have.


Personally.
A shaddow ban does not seem at all appropriate,

i say the best idea is combat log or crash and come back to a insurance screen..
or possibly Loose 1/2 of what you had left of your hull divided by Shields:
hull was 100% you combat crash, shields were at 3/3 rings you lose 1/3rd of 50% (rounded up) so you lose 17% hull and come back with 0 sheilds and 83% hull.
vs
hull was 50% shields were 0/3 rings thats 50% and you dont get anything from the shields which means you come back with 25% hull and 0 rings..
Then anything lower than say 16% hull and 0/3 shields = you come back to a re buy screen.

And that is based on a crash or a combat log, "really does not matter" as long as it was in combat. And it should be the same rules vs npc's too/

 

[znôrt]

So yes its in the rules and tos.
you just chose to imagine its not because its under the blanket term "exploit" rather than "combat logging" specifically.

to be fair, the tos and the rules should make explicit what constitutes an exploit and what not. if blanket terms were appropiate or even valid in this context then the whole world's legal code would fit in a notebook. rules have to be clear, explicit and public. the problem is (i quote) "Hey guys, Just jumping on very quickly. Just to confirm" (zac) and "This is a quick update to let you guys know" (sandro) are indeed informative but cannot be regarded in any way as part of any tos and hardly as part of any clear and comprehensive set of rules. consider also that players are not required to read this forum at all, most of them actually don't and a considerable proportion of the player base doesn't even understand english to begin with.

So yes its in the rules and tos.

so yes, it's an exploit because they said so but no, it's neither in the 'rules' nor in the tos.
(please correct me if i am wrong, pointing to a quote to the ruling accessible either in game or in the installer or the manual or such)

to add to this, the mechanic trying to prevent or mitigate that exploit is so poor (as in practically non-existant) that even if it was in the rules it would be a debatable issue, that is, it would naturally generate debates like this one. bottom line is that if you want to be taken seriously you have to be serious.

 

[Kaerakh]

Not sure what you mean?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

Have fun, I'm sure I've committed my fair share in this thread too. I doubt anyone here is a philosophy major.

Ah, well if you're just shooting the breeze for the fun of an argument, don't let me stop you. I'm just saying that while I recognise it can be a problem, and is against the rules of the game, it's not up to us to enforce said rules, and seems like a pretty minor problem from where I'm sat; even the worst case scenario of someone logging while in a RES with a massive bounty that you've been denied just robs you of the potential of extra funds. It's not like the problems we've had in the past due to exploitation of the ramming mechanics where someone can get your own expensive craft blown up and therefore take away money you already have.

I fully recognize it isn't up to us to enforce the rules. My purpose in posting here is to show Frontier there's interest in having it be enforced and to discuss ideas for their benefit(as well as get my jimmies going). As is similar in the EVE features and ideas board where the developers there skim it to use as a crowd sourced brainstorming session. I have no doubt Frontier does something similar.

 

[Lowievisser]

But im flying a shieldless adder in open with cargo full of gold , so if you attack me in this mode you are a griefer and im right to expliot and cheat my way out of it.

(logic by pve crowd elite community)

 

[StuF]

to move the goal posts, is a saying that means that you set a target then when it was acheived you changed your mind about what the target should have been and so "moved the goal posts"

im sure you can infer what he means from understanding that.

My position on this matter has been the same and remains unchanged since my first post on the issue
I dont consider combat logging to be an exploit cheat or gamebreaking tool and that is my personal viewpoint

I have had the developers and mods posts on the issues highlighted to me and I understand their viewpoints on the issue too
And the fact they believe it to be a punishable and bannable method for leaving the game is cool with me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion
How enforcable that particular opinion is though is where the waters get muddied - scream as loud and long as you want on here that its a cheat/exploit/NOT FAIR

When I play in Open in the future (currently play in Mobius) and am interdicted by another CMDR and dont fancy a fight I will leave the game how I want to
Be that through combat logging, alt f4, ending through the task manager, logout timer, whatever - to see what the direct consequences are to me
I will be interested if I get a warning email, ingame text, message whatever - will be recording my journey online to catch any choice language and comms chatter.

My issue revolves around this almost constant battle that
"THIS IS CHEATING"
"ITS A BANNABLE EXPLOIT"
"ITS AGAINST THE RULES"

And on and on it goes

I am one for playing to the (published) rules and until they are ameded to contain "Explicit" instructions regarding when and how I can leave the game I will continue to play it how I want to.
How does it go - "Blaze My Own Trail" and if that includes the devils sin of Combat Logging so be it

Once the rules are amended I will alter the way I play the game to conform with that alteration

 

[Lowievisser]

FD said it was a expliot multi times , above poster. its cheating plain simpel.

probs for being honest about being a dirty cheater tho!

 

[excalibus]

Apart from on this very forum - where is it actually confirmed?
Is it in the instruction booklet when you load up the game?
Maybe it is highlighted in the tutorial missions?
Or perhaps an onscreen warning when playing the game?

Nope nope nope - so not really a "Confirmed Exploit" is it!
Anywhere apart from here that is

actually it is in the terms of service that exploiting is against the rules and then for clarification on what combat logging actually is it was defined by the lead designer Sandro Summarco on these forums...

Seeing how you have posted here, in this very thread, we can all take it as read that you now understand fully what combat logging is and can refer back to the ToS to see if you are indeed breaching your agreement with FDev if you should choose to combat log in an ungraceful way.

 

[shambles1980]

ok i see..
So untill they name every single individual script and application that cannot be used with the game.
you can use every cheat script you want?

And this is the issue with gamers today ppl.


Its like standing up in a court of law and saying.
"well sure i Murdered some one"
But show me in the book of law where it says I specifically cant choke some one to death with a pineapple whilst i sing them a lullaby and have a moneky throw cherries at me..

i mean really if its not exactly defined then i cant be prosecuted for it can i.


the boundaries of some peoples delusions seem to be unfathomable

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

If you can't play the game without being a newbie-killing sociopath, DON'T PLAY THE GAME.

Number of "Noobs" killed - Zero
Tolerance to cheating - Zero

Stop promoting the use of cheats by excusing them, you are adding to the problem not solving it even if your intentions are good.

 

[Exiton]

Just yesterday enemy faction's wing came to our faction's capital. They were 2 Corvettes and FdL, and they obviously came in search of some PvP. Well, we gave them one with my Corvette and my wing-man's silent ASP. As soon as one of the enemy Corvettes' hull went below 40% he simply pulled out the plug.

And you know what? I didn't even bother reporting him. Why? Because there's no point! We used to send reports on combat loggers, dozens of them, multiple time, and yet we keep seeing them in open as obviously absolutely no action was taken by the developers.

Now I can understand why the developers wouldn't want to BAN combat loggers. But any sane person can come up with multiple solutions to this problem (OTHER than BAN) if he thinks about it for literally one minute.

You don't want to ban users? Fine! Don't ban them. Add to every user profile a counter that would be visible to everyone showing the number of developer-confirmed number of this user's combat logs. Ordinary users will just avoid the cheater denying him PvP he craves, while skilled users will take pride in successfully taking him down before the cheater has time to combat log.

Or come up with other solution. Just DO SOMETHING already! At this point the complete lack of reaction from the developers to this glaring exploit is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Siobhan]

Number of "Noobs" killed - Zero
Tolerance to cheating - Zero

Stop promoting the use of cheats by excusing them, you are adding to the problem not solving it even if your intentions are good.

I think you'll find that I have NEVER promoted a cheat.
I am just saying that Gankers and Griefers are a problem that is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE worse.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

What I don't understand is how we have a 30+ page thread which I'm sure isn't the first or last that can be literally boiled down to two positions:

Pro-chreating
And
Anti-cheating

And for some reason the anti-cheating side is being characterized as more evil than Mojo Jojo. It's utterly bizarre and a fascinating window into how twisted a victim complex is.

I've literally never seen anything like this in any other game, or at least not on such a massive scale.

Its staggering isn't it?. Ive said a few time in this thread and during discussions with friends and people on the IRC channel, in all the years I have played MP games (regardless of genre) I have never once seen a community as divided as this when it comes to opposing cheating. I have certainly never seen cheating condoned and openly encouraged and accepted. It makes me question what type of people actually play ED :S

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I think you'll find that I have NEVER promoted a cheat.
I am just saying that Gankers and Griefers are a problem that is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE worse.

You promote them by excusing them when there is no excuse ever.

The bit that is bold is a separate issue that you wont find many people at odd with you about. You might find people questioning the frequency of it in the overall context of the galaxy but the thing is, it can only be overcome by new game mechanics, and not what this thread is about.

Cheating is in part a social issue that we must all speak out against. New players that come to the forums should never read "its ok to forcibly shut down your game if you are under attack"


Say it Siobhan, say "I APPOSE COMBAT LOGGING", you will feel a whole lot better and then we can move on