Combat Logging: How do other games deal with it? And a possible fix for Elite.

[WinterCharm]

Before we get started, let's establish facts:


1. It's impossible to be 100% sure if someone combat logged, or if their connection was lost/disrupted. Not just in P2P, but even with dedicated servers.
2. We want to minimize the accidental punishment.
3. In ANY game with a dedicated server, disconnecting means you'd die anyways. REGARDLESS of the reason.
4. In many popular multiplayer games, There are HARSH penalties for leaving.


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How does this work in other games?


1. **Halo** - [Read this from the Halo Subreddit for perspective](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/55dbfb/can_i_complain_about_the_ban_hammer_a_little/) Due to the crazy number of people who were quitting Halo 5 games early, 343i implemented *harsh* bans. ANYONE who quits cannot log back in for 30 *minutes* which doubles with every subsequent quit in 24 hours. Numbers are way down. Halo 5 is the most relevant as previous halo games did not have harsh quit penalties, and this led to extremely high quit rates.


2. **Overwatch** https://www.vg247.com/2016/06/23/ov...petitive-play-matches-are-not-messing-around/ Tl;Dr: you get increasing bans over time for leaving.


3. **DOTA2** Leaving Penalty is damn harsh. Here's a complaint post http://steamcommunity.com/app/570/discussions/0/882966056336164399/?l=polish


4. **Counter Strike** The ban systems works as follows:1st infraction: 30min. 2nd infraction: 2 hours. 3rd infraction: 24 hours 4th infraction: 7 days. Any one of these infractions get rest by my understanding after a week.


5. **RuneScape** If you log out mid-combat, your character persists in the game, and will die.

Note: I chose a mix of MMO's, FPS games, MOBAs, and F2P as well as Paid games. Why? because Elite costing money is no excuse for not punishing combat loggers.


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Combat Logging in Elite Dangerous


1. It ABSOLUTELY ruins the game in Open. This is UNDENIABLE, and it's against the spirit of literally EVERY multiplayer game ever, including Elite Dangerous, which is why Frontier has already said they don't approve.


2. Combat logging needs to be punished harshly AND we want to minimize FALSE positives.


3. Combat Logging is not an issue in Solo or Group play. SO IT SHOULD NOT be punished there. Anyone with an unstable connection should have NO problems playing solo.


4. Combat logging in Open should ONLY be punished if you're interacting with another player. Again, this REDUCES the possibility of false positives.


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Adopt the following policy for OPEN play only: If you disconnect during combat OR interdiction with a player you automatically blow up, and you're greeted with a rebuy screen


* Anyone firing at you is credited with the kill/your bounties.
* Anyone interdicting you is credited with your bounty but NOT your kill
* random disconnects outside of fighting will NOT be punished. So, * If you lose your connection Mining in a RES, or fighting an NPC you will NOT be punished.
* If you lose your connection while being interdicted by an NPC you will NOT be punished.
* If you lose your connection while fighting a PLAYER you *will* be punished.
* If Elite was on dedicated servers, and your connection dropped, you would die, too. This shouldn't be any different.

X-posted to reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...r_fdev_lets_talk_about_combat_logging_how_do/

 

[Asp Explorer]

Adopt the following policy for OPEN play only: If you disconnect during combat OR interdiction with a player you automatically blow up, and you're greeted with a rebuy screen


* Anyone firing at you is credited with the kill/your bounties.
* Anyone interdicting you is credited with your bounty but NOT your kill
* random disconnects outside of fighting will NOT be punished. So, * If you lose your connection Mining in a RES, or fighting an NPC you will NOT be punished.
* If you lose your connection while being interdicted by an NPC you will NOT be punished.
* If you lose your connection while fighting a PLAYER you *will* be punished.
* If Elite was on dedicated servers, and your connection dropped, you would die, too. This shouldn't be any different.

And if someone out there is trying to play you and not the game - you'll find yourself disconnecting, appearing to combat log on youtube, and banned in five minutes whilst some group of lulzbunnies wet themselves laughing at you

 

[WinterCharm]

How so?

Combat logging will no longer require video evidence submitted by players. Instead, the game will handle a disconnect internally. The game on subsequent launch will report the task kill or the connection loss to the Elite servers, and they'll get a rebuy screen.

Also, if someone i

If someone DDOS's another player, you realize that situation would play out the same way any other game handles that situation? THey'd find the person who was doing it and give them a permaban.

 

[Asp Explorer]

DDOS'ing someone is quite likely going to get you into legal trouble.

How can the game handle a client disconnect if the client never disconnects from the game?

 

[Robert Maynard]

How do you propose that the determination is made between a conscious disconnection by the player and any other form of disconnect that the player may suffer?

 

[WinterCharm]

How do you propose that the determination is made between a conscious disconnection by the player and any other form of disconnect that the player may suffer?

There wouldn't be a distinguishing factor. ANY disconnect will be punished like it was a malicious one IF it was made in the context of another player. The idea is, if another player is not involved then NO punishment occurs because you're not ruining the game for anyone else. So, in that case, even if you PURPOSELY disconnect during a fight with an NPC it will NOT be punished.

The people who like to disconnect to cheat will simply keep trying, and keep getting punished, or stop. The people who have bad connections will MOSTLY be forgiven because MOST of the time, in Elite you're not around other players. If you are actively in combat with one, you shouldn't be allowed to quit.

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DDOS'ing someone is quite likely going to get you into legal trouble.

How can the game handle a client disconnect if the client never disconnects from the game?

Because the client can report on the actual game exe, and log if there was a task kill.

Disconnecting Ethernet will disconnect you, too, and that should just automatically count as a combat log.

Network issues will count as a combat log, too. It seems harsh, but **every other game out there** does it that way.

In Elite, I'm pushing for the exception that the game should FORGIVE you IF you were NOT interacting with a player.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Bearing in mind Frontier's stance on the subject of using the exit menu:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

... and also that not all players enjoy perfect internet connections, I doubt that Frontier will go to the extent of making players who experience disconnects in Open play face the rebuy screen - if there was a guaranteed way of distinguishing between a forced disconnect and one beyond the player's control then I would expect that Frontier would have acted already.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Why would anyone disconnect their Ethernet? The client can report on its status. Watchdog can monitor whatever FD want it to (and still have to conform to privacy laws) and if someone loses their expensive ship because they didn't read about Frontier's (or their ISP's) scheduled maintenance - or some drunk knocks over a telegraph pole - then you are going to end up spending a fortune on support tickets and dealing with upset customers and bad press.

 

[WinterCharm]

if there was a guaranteed way of distinguishing between a forced disconnect and one beyond the player's control

Thing is, there is no method that exists, which can 100% do this. ALL other games just punish any disconnect. FDev should follow suit, because I'm sure that massive developers like 343i and Steam would have figured that out boy now, if there was a way. There isn't, and we know that already. But CL'ing is ruining the game.

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Why would anyone disconnect their Ethernet? The client can report on its status. Watchdog can monitor whatever FD want it to (and still have to conform to privacy laws) and if someone loses their expensive ship because they didn't read about Frontier's (or their ISP's) scheduled maintenance - or some drunk knocks over a telegraph pole - then you are going to end up spending a fortune on support tickets and dealing with upset customers and bad press.

There will be no media outcry, and no fortune spent on support tickets ---Again look at the other games that punish disconnects. You *barely* hear any bad press from them. There are LIVING examples of games where this WORKS. These are not games that no one plays anymore. These are games people still play. Halo, Overwatch, and CounterStrike are totally fine. Elite would be fine. Yes, some people would be upset, but they have Solo and Group play, where they will get ZERO penalties for any connection loss.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Thing is, there is no method that exists, which can 100% do this.

Exactly.

ALL other games just punish any disconnect.

That's as may be - Frontier did not choose to follow them - although they have stated that they consider ungraceful exit to be an exploit that may be punishable.

 

[Arry]

OP was doing so well but then he put the finger up to those whom have issues with connection in general. I lose connection, in about 1 in 4 times of playing. I see this as an issue mostly from my end and accept that, but to be punished for it, that is not acceptable to me.

Sorry you had a good acceptable argument, until you dumped all connection issues into one bucket.

 

[Leut]

Why do i read this post like "SDC is looking for more innocent targets to shoot down"

Well ok. When i play Open it's because i have to. Like the hunt last time for the crashed ship! The rest i play in private.
When i hunt clues like everyone else i DO NOT! WANT TO PLAY THE SDC WAY!
I already said on this forum i combat log anything SDC related. But in any other case i die like a man! In mobius i never combat logged. With that in mind i like to propose a countermeassure.

When a SDC shoot anyone on interdiction without text related input (like piracy) there insurrance stops! A complete full rebuy! When they do it again the insurrance for the next ship is gone aswell! and so on!

Crime and punnishement!

Something like that! whenever THAT! happens i happely stay in open and die like a man everytime a DC member kills me!
Not like now when a engineered a-rated combat ferdie takes on a ASP without any weapons and kills for the fun of it... and takes a whipping 9000 credits bounty for doing that
As it stands now i happely stay OUT of open.
I hope FD is watching this. Many people stay out of open for the SDC! Many! many people stop playing this fantastic game because of SDC.


Combat logging is wrong! I agree! But it's the ONLY! remedy for a group like SDC.

 

[WinterCharm]

Why do i read this post like "SDC is looking for more innocent targets to shoot down"

Combat logging is wrong! I agree! But it's the ONLY! remedy for a group like SDC.

Hey, first of all, I am not a part of SDC. In case you don't know, I'm the guy who founded Iridium Wing - the fighter escort service for returning explorers.

Second, combat logging is not the "cure" for SDC. The "cure" is a better Police/Crime/Punishment system in Elite, or killing them yourself, or playing in a PG or Solo.

Combat logging is cheating, and people just use it to evade anything they feel threatened by. We get it, you hate SDC, but starting an SDC hate brigade on this post is not the point. The point is to address combat logging.

Elite DESPERATELY needs better crime/punishment. I 10000% agree with you about that. But... combat logging is not a "solution" it's part of the problem.

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OP was doing so well but then he put the finger up to those whom have issues with connection in general. I lose connection, in about 1 in 4 times of playing. I see this as an issue mostly from my end and accept that, but to be punished for it, that is not acceptable to me.

Sorry you had a good acceptable argument, until you dumped all connection issues into one bucket.

But unless you lose a connection WHILE IN COMBAT WITH ANOTHER PLAYER, the game will 100% forgive you for it. I did acknowledge the connection issue. The best solution right now is to *FORGIVE* every disconnect, except one that happens while you're in combat with another player.

 

[Asp Explorer]

But unless you lose a connection WHILE IN COMBAT WITH ANOTHER PLAYER, the game will 100% forgive you for it. I did acknowledge the connection issue. The best solution right now is to *FORGIVE* every disconnect, except one that happens while you're in combat with another player.

And what happens if you are in combat with another player, and they initiate a Steam game update using up their whole pipe? Your game will chug along as you get updates every 10 seconds and they eventually get a "Failure to connect to server" error and FD combat logs them

 

[WinterCharm]

And what happens if you are in combat with another player, and they initiate a Steam game update using up their whole pipe? Your game will chug along as you get updates every 10 seconds and they eventually get a "Failure to connect to server" error and FD combat logs them

Lol, that's on them. Who downloads updates while they play multiplayer games? XD

 

[Princess Nia]

Well ok. When i play Open it's because i have to.

No you dont

i DO NOT! WANT TO PLAY THE SDC WAY!

Then dont play in open.

I already said on this forum i combat log anything SDC related.

You just found your way on to a lot of player group KoS lists, enjoy combat logging til you get banned.

When a SDC shoot anyone on interdiction without text related input (like piracy) there insurrance stops! A complete full rebuy! When they do it again the insurrance for the next ship is gone aswell! and so on!

Thats not even balanced in the least

I hope FD is watching this.

i hope they are too, i look forward to your ban!

But it's the ONLY! remedy for a group like SDC.

No it's not, you could try fighting them, but you probably arent good enough so cheating is your preferred approach

 

[Asp Explorer]

Lol, that's on them. Who downloads updates while they play multiplayer games? XD

Your kids purchase a new game on the console, your girl/boyfriend wands to download the new season of series X? Maybe windows got a new NIC driver and installs it automatically

All sorts of things can happen.

 

[Leut]

The "cure" is a better Police/Crime/Punishment system in Elite,

That is the point! There is no Crime/punishment within Elite.
Within the hunt i was talking about a well known SDC "specialist' murdered our first clue!
This is wrong on so many levels! and no action was taken

This is why i (and i am not alone) combat log on them. I died over 60 times within the game. Thats no problem and it will happen again
But these guys should play CQC and leave the poor guys alone who just made it to there first cobra. No punishment? I combat log. It's that simple!

 

[Cypher2139]

How do you propose that the determination is made between a conscious disconnection by the player and any other form of disconnect that the player may suffer?

Exactly this. If I'm a few credits short of my rebuy I could make a conscious decision to make a risky cargo run which would put me back in the black. Exciting huh?

But then I get interdicted by another player. But fear not, I'm in a faster ship so I can easily outrun them.

But them BAM, I have a power cut, or the wifi goes down, or my computer does a scheduled reboot I forgot about,1 or any number of other things which are not my fault.

And I've instantly lost several hundred hours of progress and I'm back to a Sidewinder.

Some might argue I shouldn't have been flying without the rebuy to begin with, but it's my decision based on measurable odds. Not for a flukey power blip to undo 6 months of hard work.

All hypothetical of course as I have enough ships/money to cover those scenarios, but others may not. And a large number of people in that position WILL leave the game.

 

[Leut]

No you dont (yes i do)



Then dont play in open. (i dont)




You just found your way on to a lot of player group KoS lists, enjoy combat logging til you get banned. (thats ok. still in mobius)





Thats not even balanced in the least (so? it's hardly balanced right now is it )




i hope they are too, i look forward to your ban! ( I should have been banned a while back then. i still can play everyday. )




No it's not, you could try fighting them, but you probably arent good enough so cheating is your preferred approach ( i am not good at fighting. so i don't want to look it up!)

?
I play mobius. but whatever