Combat logging no longer an exploit? * trigger warning *

[Northpin]

While in no way i condone the clogging...

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

...there are several issues with it:
1) it's basically impossible to prove it, so it has to rely on observing patterns and/or self confessing idiots.
2) while FD might vaguely attempt policing clogging on PC, they have absolutely no say about it on XBox - probably not on PS either.

And since they cant really have a policy on PC and another on consoles... so We are investigating each report and we are taking measures on a case by case basis

 

[wrmiller]

With the allowance by FD of ramming and other stupid stuff in the great 'open' environment, I'd say that anything that is possible, is permissible. And if some don't like it, too bad. Don't try to play a mmo type game with children and then complain when they do stuff you don't like.

 

[Skatez69]

It is an honour type thing imo. If you are in open and are getting blown up you should take it on the chin and try to inprove next time, again thats just my opinion.
o7

The last time I was blown up, I was jumped by a wing of 2 cmdrs in max-min combat tanks as I was in my basic explorer. "try to improve next time" has nothing to do with it...

 

[thelion]

Can one combat log long posts?

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

CLing wasn't inveted by Commanders. CLing didn;t appear with E|D. Combat logging happens in all games. It really can't be stopped. Move on.

It has indeed existed since the early LAN deathmatch of the past century. But it was stopped everywhere long ago with a so simple disconnexion=loss. Some may wonder why any game dev would think their online PvP otherwise. That is, if they want PvP in their online game at all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

They broke a lot of links/threads when the updated the forums and archived tons of stuff a couple of years back.

I also cannot find Sandro's post from January 2015, though I distinctly remember it at the time and can find my own references to it as recently as 2018.

Robert Maynard links a post of Sandro's that still exists that makes it clear that menu logging and combat logging are treated distinctly, with fairly clear implications that an ungraceful exit is prohibited.

I found a quote of the post being hunted for in an old post of mine:

Hello Commanders!

This is a quick update to let you guys know what we’re looking at regarding the issue of “combat logging”.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

So what we’re doing is logging telemetry that will help us detect when this exploit is explicitly being used.

Right now, all we’re doing (and have already started doing) is looking at and implementing methods of collecting and analysing data.

At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

On a related, but separate track, we’re looking at introducing benefits to Commanders that persevere and stick it out through dangerous encounters, as well as general credit costs and rewards balancing.

I’m not quite ready to talk about these in more detail just now. Obviously though, they can never counter the potential costs of ship destruction, but we want to look at a range of disincentives and incentives both to counter this issue.

I hope this helps clarify our position a little.

Simple Fix to Combat Logging

Exactly. At least as long as we are talking about online gaming. A cheat is a godmode/wallhack/aimbot basically everything that isn't possible for a normal player while an exploit is the usage of mechanics that are available to everyone but not allowed. There is a difference for both in every...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[bladebss]

So we can have some kind of Spicie response to a newly re-found irritant? What good could come from a discussion like this? None. Just a breading ground for Butt-hurtz.

FD have said it, everyone has said it, but I'll say it again: Combat Logging is bad. Mmmmkay?

CLing wasn't inveted by Commanders. CLing didn;t appear with E|D. Combat logging happens in all games. It really can't be stopped. Move on.

Some times its not about how other players percive your actions but how you do in relation to the game and its inteded rules. I dont want to play the game in a way that is not inteded it want to be legit in my play style.

I have no bounty on me, so yeah - no effect for you.

I don't think you're going to avoid the descent into discussion of the morality, as I said in my post, I've never really understood the passion that seems to go with it. If FDev do reply, you'll be able to jump immediately to their post by clickin on the little Dev Post flag that will appear on the thread, so don't sweat it and just let the conversation evolve naturally.

I meant it theoreticaly.. if you did have a bounty.. by being so abviosly obtuse about it you actualy lend legitimacy to the counter argument you know..

I just dont understand why peope have to so tribal about all this and cant see the bigger picture and effect it has on the game. Ultimatley frontier are the arbiters of the rules and how the game was inteded to be played. Regardless of the effect it might have on how people can actualy play based on the power frontier or indeed players have to enforce that game play

 

[bladebss]

I found a quote of the post being hunted for in an old post of mine:

Thank you so much.. at least we have it to reference now to those who are unsire on frontiers stance.

Provided it still is there stance lol

 

[Snowymonk]

You may be right on Combat logging not being explicitly in the EULA agreement.
I got into interdicted in Borann a couple of weeks ago with a prat who was just being an idiot.
I was in open and after multiple interdictions from him I finally had enough and ‘combat logged’ on him.
(logged out of the game via the PS button on the PS4)
I hadn’t attacked him, I hadn’t shown any sign of aggression and I hadn’t fired a single shot. I hadn’t even deployed my mining hardpoints.
I gave up on Open and logged into Solo to continue. I then got a stream of ingame DM abuse.
A couple of days later I got a Combat Log warning from Frontier so looked up the EULA to see what exactly I had done wrong.

the nearest I could get was

CHEATING

We do not tolerate cheating of any kind in our online multiplayer games. This includes, but is not limited to, the use of automated scripts, programs or services offered outside of the game to generate a player advantage, altering game code or memory, sharing or trading account access with others or using cheat codes.

We do not tolerate the use of any exploits or taking advantage of any bugs in the game to generate a significant player advantage.

Any user determined to be cheating or exploiting our games or services can be subject to game moderation. Moderation can involve the alteration or removal of in-game assets, a gameplay suspension or ban, or the termination of their Frontier account. Moderation can be applied to active, historical, and promoters of cheating or exploiting.

I wrote back for more clarification but still haven’t heard anything back.
I haven’t been back to Open since. Whilst mining to generate funds for a Fleet Carrier, it’s not worth it.
One more loss to Frontier. Other commanders in open will think that the game is that much more dead.

 

[Skatez69]

by being so abviosly obtuse about it you actualy lend legitimacy to the counter argument you know.

Now hang on a moment, reel that neck in. I was giving my opinion on how clogging may or may not affect me. I can only ever speak for myself and how I feel about things, I'm certainly not one of these cmdrs who claims to speak for the entire playerbase. I proffered that killing me is of no benefit to anyone and therefore CLogging is no loss. You countered that claiming a bounty would be a loss therefore I was incorrect. I pointed out I have no bounty and so your argument held no merit in my case.
I would imagine that those with large bounties on their head are most likely to see a duel out and less likely to CLog. If it's a bounty worth crying about, it's most likely other cmdrs they've killed.

My opinion of it all is that whilst you have seal-clubbers, you're going to have Cloggers. I don't think there's a way around that.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Thank you so much.. at least we have it to reference now to those who are unsire on frontiers stance.

Provided it still is there stance lol

Players have agreed to the EULA when they installed the game. Not some old forgotten post by an ex dev.

If task killing is an exploit, it should be stated in the EULA.

 

[Skatez69]

You may be right on Combat logging not being explicitly in the EULA agreement.
I got into interdicted in Borann a couple of weeks ago with a prat who was just being an idiot.
I wa in open and after multiple interdictions from him I finally had enough and ‘combat logged’ on him.
(logged out of the game via the PS button on the PS4)
I hadn’t attacked him, I hadn’t shown any sign of aggression and I hadn’t fired a single shot. I hadn’t even deployed my mining hardpoints.
I gave up on Open and logged into Solo to continue. I then got a stream of ingame DM abuse.
A couple of days later I got a Combat Log warning from Frontier so looked up the EULA to see what exactly I had done wrong.

the nearest I could get was

CHEATING

We do not tolerate cheating of any kind in our online multiplayer games. This includes, but is not limited to, the use of automated scripts, programs or services offered outside of the game to generate a player advantage, altering game code or memory, sharing or trading account access with others or using cheat codes.

We do not tolerate the use of any exploits or taking advantage of any bugs in the game to generate a significant player advantage.

Any user determined to be cheating or exploiting our games or services can be subject to game moderation. Moderation can involve the alteration or removal of in-game assets, a gameplay suspension or ban, or the termination of their Frontier account. Moderation can be applied to active, historical, and promoters of cheating or exploiting.

I wrote back for more clarification but still haven’t heard anything back.
I haven’t been back to Open since. Whilst mining to generate funds for a Fleet Carrier, it’s not worth it.
One more loss to Frontier. Other commanders in open will think that the game is that much more dead.

Exactly the kind of scenario I'm thinking of. Rather harsh that you got a warning for it

 

[Kekkonshiki]

Im dyslexic my phone is corupted by my affliction.. stop being a spelling and gramma pedant and judging me on my word rsther than my meaning.. doctors handwriting sucks but it doesnt stop them saving lives..

I know. I read your sig. I was trying to be funny about it. Failed.

 

[bladebss]

Players have agreed to the EULA when they installed the game. Not some old forgotten post by an ex dev.

If task killing is an exploit, it should be stated in the EULA.

Well thats kind of my point lol the EULA isnt exactly specific about alot of things and what constitues what.. so if combat logging is considered an out of game exploit.. it is referenced in the EULA.

 

[bladebss]

I know. I read your sig. I was trying to be funny about it. Failed.

Sorry it didnt come across that way.. im used to having to defnd my self against such judgments and dismissals online.
Offence redacted lol

 

[Northpin]

Thank you so much.. at least we have it to reference now to those who are unsire on frontiers stance.

Provided it still is there stance lol

a) the post itself does not exist
b) Sandro made quite an amount of statements then he (how to put it gently?)... left the Community and probably the game as well.

Putting together a) plus b) might say something about the approval rate of his stance with the game.

Again, i dont approve nor i condone clogging... it is just one of the unfortunate outcomes of some unfortunate game design choices.

 

[Morbad]

I found a quote of the post being hunted for in an old post of mine:

There is also Zac Antonaci's official statement on the issue on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5ec6j1/_/dacac6q Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5ec6j1/an_investigation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/dacac6q/

I've never really understood the depth of passion regarding combat logging. As has been mentioned above, if someone does this, consider it a win and move on. So what if someone chooses to pull their network cable rather than face the rebuy? How exactly does it affect you?

These questions have been asked and repeatedly answered for more than five years.

It's a persistent multiplayer-only game, where what others do influences the setting for everyone else that interacts with it. Any non-contextual way to evade in-game consequences is problematic because it means cheaters get more say in the setting than they should.

Games have to have rules and fair games involve people playing by the same set of rules. If one can cheat to play by a better set of rules than intended, this is a problem for any game.

Someone disconnects to save their ship, regardless of context, and they have essentially cheated to duplicate any asset that would have been lost, and save them the time it would take to recover that. Consequences have been softened and rewards so inflated that the effects of ship loss are much less than they were, but the credits, data, missions, or time that a ship loss can cost a CMDR are still consequential to their ability to influence the setting.

Combat logging is a cheat even in Solo, and even Solo players have to deal with some of the consequences of Combat logging.

Beyond the effects to the BGS, combat logging trivializes much other gameplay, by providing an essentially infailable out to any situation that provides any warning whatsoever.

I have no bounty on me, so yeah - no effect for you.

If you're CMDR is carrying data that you are going to sell at some point, blowing their ship up could prevent a huge amount of influence from being pumped into factions of your choosing, or keep your name off certain first discoveries. If your CMDR has missions that need unique cargo, same things.

In any case, a ship loss is some minor set back that changes what one's intended actions would be, however slightly.

Players have agreed to the EULA when they installed the game. Not some old forgotten post by an ex dev.

If task killing is an exploit, it should be stated in the EULA.

It is, in properly vague legalese, which is worded so that it can mean almost anything Frontier wants it to.

It should be obvious that using out of game means to preserve in-game assets is a cheat. Yes, plenty of people will still want it spelled out, but you can spell out everything in an EULA, that would take a book length document that would have no utility as an EULA.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

a) the post itself does not exist
b) Sandro made quite an amount of statements then he (how to put it gently?)... left the Community and probably the game as well.

Putting together a) plus b) might say something about the approval rate of his stance with the game.

Again, i dont approve nor i condone clogging... it is just one of the unfortunate outcomes of some unfortunate game design choices.

Actual devs could at least give their opinion on the stuff.

Then people could ask what they're doing about fixing the "exploit" and they could tell... It's complicated.... Advanced telemetry in progress...

 

[Snowymonk]

Exactly the kind of scenario I'm thinking of. Rather harsh that you got a warning for it

Result:
I now play in Solo,
I don’t interact with any other commanders,
I don’t ’o7’ other ships at various starports.
If I hadnt had a goal of saving for a Fleet Carrier, I might well have put the game down and gone onto something else.
I am now a hidden stat. Other Commanders in PS4 won’t see me when I am doing anything that I want to preserve. I may come back to Open once my Fleet Carrier is launched but it is touch and go.

 

[Morbad]

Result:
I now play in Solo,
I don’t interact with any other commanders,
I don’t ’o7’ other ships at various starports.
If I hadnt had a goal of saving for a Fleet Carrier, I might well have put the game down and gone onto something else.
I am now a hidden stat. Other Commanders in PS4 won’t see me when I am doing anything that I want to preserve. I may come back to Open once my Fleet Carrier is launched but it is touch and go.

Are you still cheating in Solo? If not then the warning served it's purpose.