Combat Logging Punishment Proposal

[Riverside]

Important note, FDev have said they will be monitoring this thread, if you think you have a good alternative proposal, or like one of the ones in this thread please do join the discussion.



From the feedback over the last day or so it seems clear that there are lots of things in the game that some people consider to be exploits, but one that stands out as fairly universally accepted to be a 'cheat' is Combat Logging.

There are lots of innocent reasons why a client may disconnect ungracefully, and unlike the recent Engineers cheat it's much harder to determine whether a CLogger did so deliberately or not.

For an excellent proposal from CMDR_Cosmicspacehead, please go to Post #34.

Spoiler

A tagging system.
When you enter any form of danger (anything that requires the 15 second timer to legally exit the game), a "tag" is placed on your save, which contains some information.
When you leave danger, the tag is removed. You'd be none the wiser.

If you illegally combat log, or have a CTD, server error, etc, while in danger, the tag would not be removed.

This tag is then read when loading the game, and using the information it stored, will only allow you to re-enter your previous mode for a limited time.

I particularly like this idea, because if you're just going about your business and suffer a server failure or CTD while in danger, you simply reload the game and continue as normal, in your previous mode, which we all do anyway.

But if you're intentionally combat logging in PvP, your only options are to rejoin the same mode, where your opponent may be waiting. Or don't play at all.

No one is ever barred entirely from the game, and accidental disconnects are not punished.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

A revised proposal combining feedback & ideas from this thread is in post #267 & 268. There is an addendum in post #410 too.


For a comprehensive breakdown of the problem from Red Anders, please go to post #61.

Spoiler

Bear in mind that FDev can determine whether you logged via the menu or not (triggering the 15 second delay is an eventt and can be logged) so we're only talking about applying any judgement to exits other than via the menu. The discussion about whether that is fair, unfair or whatever is for another thread - as things stand FDev say that is legit, whilst cable-yanking, ALT-F4 etc isn't and they make the rules not us.

The easiest way to deal with it, not ideal because some players would undoubtedly slip through the net, but still incomparably better that what the game offers now* is to do what I suggested in the now-locked thread and apply a balance of probabilities test.

Let's kill the strawmen before they spawn.

1. Nobody gets banned for a single occurrence of anything because yeah, my connection drops sometimes. Most people's connections will drop occasionally for a number of reasons.
2. Nobody gets banned for an ungraceful exit whilst just flying around in supercruise, or when jumping in/out - the issue is combat logging.

I would have to accept that one potentially exploitable scenario would have to be exempt, namely connection drops at the point of a successful interdiction. The reason is that I know this is a time when flaky connections can cause genuine problems, same as when trying to drop in on a wingmate. It'sa well-documented problem and a potential nightmare to police.

OK, that will undoubtedly mean that some players will just log at the point they're about to enter combat and get away with it, even if we leave aside the tedious and never-ending discussion around 'when is combat logging actually combat logging?' Is that ideal? Nope. Is it considerably better than the situation now, where a player who is happy to join the fight when they think they might win but then logs when they realise they won't, can also get away with it? I'd say that it is. If we can't do perfect, let's focus on doing better and just commit to working towards perfection lol - not being able to do it perfectly is not a reason to do nothing.

Ok, so that leaves us with players who can fly round in supercruise with no problems, can manage to drop into an instance with another player with no problems, can then fight that other player for a period of time with no problems, yet whose connection suffers an incredibly unfortunate failure just as they drop to 5% hull with their opponent drawing a bead on them.

If that happens once, should the player be getting a ban? I'd say not, bad luck is a real thing.

How about twice? Hmmm. Well I guess some people have really really bad luck.

Tell you what. Let's see how many times other players think someone could reasonably be unlucky, in what is a very specific situation and one that would be occurring after the most likely disconnect points for people with naturally flaky connections, who nontheless decide that playing online games that require a good, stable connection is a really good idea.

Quiz time:

You arrive home from work on Friday evening to discover your front room window smashed. There's a brick in the middle of the room which has clearly come through the window. Standing outside is a bloke with brick dust on his hands. He says 'This your house mate? Wow, proper mess that. I saw this fella launch a brick through it and run off down there, I tried to catch him but I've got a sore leg.' So obviously you thank him for his public-spirited behaviour and head inside to phone a glazier.

The following Friday, you arrive home from work to discover your front room window smashed. There's a brick in the middle of the room which has clearly come through the window. Standing outside is a bloke with brick dust on his hands. He says 'This your house mate? Wow, proper mess that. I saw this fella launch a brick through it and run off down there, I tried to catch him but I've got a sore leg.' Something is tickling away at the back of your mind about this situation but it's raining on your telly, so you thank him for his public spirited behaviour and head inside to phone a glazier.

The following Friday, you arrive home from work to discover your front room window smashed. There's a brick in the middle of the room which has clearly come through the window. Standing outside is a bloke with brick dust on his hands...​

I'm not going to labour the point - just how many weeks would you let that go on before you accepted that the balance of probability is that the bloke is smashing your window and hanging around to have a laugh at you? Three? Five?

Balance of probability does not mean punishing someone for an act of God. It means that there is a tipping point after which a reasonable person could infer that the feathered, quacking bird in front of them is in fact a duck.

I don't agree with automated timeouts as per the OP simply because as I said above I totally accept that connections can drop legitimately and even with mine, which is usually rock-solid, I would have probably been unable to play on any Sunday night for the last year given the number of random disconnects I used to have. Mainly though, if the issue is combat logging, there's no need to do something as controversial as that when we're only really concerned with ungraceful exits during combat. For example I'm currently about 21,000 LY from Sol approaching the edge of the core - what impact is my connection dropping on a jump there having on anyone that means I should sit out an hour? It's just pointless and would be a huge cause of frustration.

I do however think that it's entirely reasonable for players to get banned on the basis that the circumstances in which repeated connection drops happen would defy any reasonable likelihood of being accidental. It's not about the number or frequency of disconnects, it's about the context. Just the same as I thought it was entirely reasonable that players should lose a load of grade 5 engineered mods even though there is an infinitesimally small possibility that they did 1n fact just exit to the engineers menu and then go back to do a grade 5 roll on 172 consecutive occasions.

This concept that what is needed to punish people is 'proof' in the sense of a video of them doing it and laughing about it along with a signed statement to that effect is bunk. What is needed is a reasonable belief that the chances of other causes are sufficiently small as to be disregarded and that is a point that you can definitely reach with contextual evidence. Nobody in their right mind can realistically believe that a player who drops connection regularly at the critical point of a fight and yet doesn't do so regularly (or at all) at other times is doing anything other then deliberately pulling the plug. It's nonsense.


* When I say implementing the above would be infinitely better than what we have now, I mean that the perception of what we have now at least is a situation where on the one hand FDev say 'ungraceful exits are an exploit' and yet where what seems to happen about them is nothing. That's actually worse than not having a rule about it at all because it gives the impression that enforcement of rules is weak and in MMOs players quite rightly have an expectation that rules will be enforced.

___________

Original post is below for posterity & to preserve continuity:


I'd like to propose a simple 1hr ban from the game following any disconnect*, no matter what the reason.


*whilst the ship is in danger.

If a client is having connection difficulties, waiting a while before trying to reconnect is probably a good idea anyway, if they are genuinely trying to diagnose why the game crashed or their internet connection dropped, pinging the server & other stuff can be done in this time anyway.

If the client CLogs to avoid being ganked the gankers 'win' by preventing the CLogger from reaching the station (for an hour) etc, adding something to the gameplay rather than simply avoiding it.

If the client CLogs to avoid punishment (eg spawncamper being attacked by the AA) then the newbies have been given some breathing space where the ganker cannot simply relog & carry on popping sidewinders.


Would this be a reasonable compromise all round?




Edited 24/6/17: Clarified that proposal is only whilst the ship is in danger. Added useful links.
Edited 26/6/17: Amended formatting for clarity.
Edited 4/4/18: Re-arranged to promote the favoured proposal and depreciate the original post that started the conversation.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Eeeeyeah...screw that. I had not had a CTD in the game since pre 1.0, all the way up to the 2.3 release. Since then, I CTD about 1 out of every ten times when opening my system map while fuel scooping. No, it's not my system or internet connection. No changes on my side other than the 2.3 game update.

Besides, I am in the minority it would appear as I don't give a rat's bit of peach fuzz if people are combat logging. Not really something I can fire up my righteous indignation generator over.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Also trivially easy to bypass.

I don't expect FD to be able to sanction players simply logging into their own account whenever they like - when FD enforce account single sign-on.

 

[Riverside]

Also trivially easy to bypass.

I don't expect FD to be able to sanction players simply logging into their own account whenever they like - when FD enforce account single sign-on.

Can you expand on how you would bypass it? If you are left at the main menu but 'start' and 'Friends and Private Groups' is greyed out (as it is currently if you are unable to connect to the server) you would still be able to access training missions.

If you have multiple accounts then sure, you can log on with another account, I don't see the issue here?

 

[Robert Maynard]

I doubt that Frontier would be prepared to punish players by stopping them playing the game for losses of connection that are beyond their control. Given that ungracefully leaving the game would seem, from what Frontier have said, to be indistinguishable from other losses of connection....

 

[Asp Explorer]

Can you expand on how you would bypass it? If you are left at the main menu but 'start' and 'Friends and Private Groups' is greyed out (as it is currently if you are unable to connect to the server) you would still be able to access training missions.

If you have multiple accounts then sure, you can log on with another account, I don't see the issue here?

When you log into ED on your account on one PC, logging into your account on another PC immediately disconnects you from the first one. Have a laptop or a RDP session open and ready, and as soon as a lulzbunny feels like he's in danger - BOOM - instant logoff carried out by FD themselves.

 

[Riverside]

I doubt that Frontier would be prepared to punish players by stopping them playing the game for losses of connection that are beyond their control. Given that ungracefully leaving the game would seem, from what Frontier have said, to be indistinguishable from other losses of connection....

You may be right, I did address this in my proposal. 1hr is (I think) short enough to be acceptable to those with legitimate problems, but long enough to work as a 'win' in gameplay terms.

 

[Riverside]

When you log into ED on your account on one PC, logging into your account on another PC immediately disconnects you from the first one. Have a laptop or a RDP session open and ready, and as soon as a lulzbunny feels like he's in danger - BOOM - instant logoff carried out by FD themselves.

This isn't something I'm familiar with. What's the effect in-game? The CLogger disappears from view, ends up back at the menu but on another PC? I'm struggling to think of a legitimate reason why someone might do this in a 15sec timer situation.

ETA I'm not proposing a way to prevent CLogging, I just want there to just be a consequence to doing so that adds gameplay value for those left behind.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You may be right, I did address this in my proposal. 1hr is (I think) short enough to be acceptable to those with legitimate problems, but long enough to work as a 'win' in gameplay terms.

If a dodgy connection is kicking a player out of the game a few times in a game session then an hour's delay just to log back in again, each time, would, in my opinion, be an unacceptable punishment for something outwith a player's control.

 

[Riverside]

If a dodgy connection is kicking a player out of the game a few times in a game session then an hour's delay just to log back in again would, in my opinion, be an unacceptable punishment for something outwith a player's control.

I've been in this situation myself, rebooting my router & calling my ISP to diagnose a flakey connection. Continuing to try to play an online game in these circumstances has been low on my priority list.

 

[mp4x]

You may be right, I did address this in my proposal. 1hr is (I think) short enough to be acceptable to those with legitimate problems, but long enough to work as a 'win' in gameplay terms.

Many CMDR's only get an hour or two, here and there, after work and before family commitments to play. Kids download knock you off the net? NO ED TODAY!

 

[Asp Explorer]

I'm struggling to think of a legitimate reason why someone might do this in a 15sec timer situation.

There are very few legitimate reasons, and lulzbunnies don't need any.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Again, combat logging is not something that bothers me, or that I care at all about, but for the benefit of those that feel slighted by it, I do think that any kind of punishment should be limited to combat logging while in open mode only.

 

[Allchemyst]

So not only does this game's mildly unstable networking, which is already a cause for frustration, randomly disconnect players who are trying to multi-crew (last time I checked, that was a 1/10 occurrence) or otherwise play in a constantly online-dependant environment that can and usually does dump you on a daily basis...

But on top of it all, we should be inflicted a 1 hour ban each time that happens?

No, a server disconnect in an online game whose servers aren't known to be too stable isin't worth 1h of my time to diagnose...

All your idea would do is severely aggravate the game's already quite potent connectivity issues. It's a win for no-one.

 

[Riverside]

Many CMDR's only get an hour or two, here and there, after work and before family commitments to play. Kids download knock you off the net? NO ED TODAY!

Can't say I've had that issue, I share my internet connection with my family too. You have a point, but if my connection were that flakey & I was aware of this 1hr rule I'd deal with it I think.

There are very few legitimate reasons, and lulzbunnies don't need any.

So it can be lumped in with any other ungraceful exit then.

 

[Asp Explorer]

So it can be lumped in with any other ungraceful exit then.

No - the opposite is true. FD themselves disconnect you from the original session when you log in to it again. They cannot count it as an ungraceful exit because FD demand it happens due to account protections. They disconnect the player from the game, not the other way around.

 

[Riverside]

Again, combat logging is not something that bothers me, or that I care at all about, but for the benefit of those that feel slighted by it, I do think that any kind of punishment should be limited to combat logging while in open mode only.

CLogging doesn't affect my gameplay either, but I'm prepared to compromise on an occasional disconnect during a 15sec timer event for the sake of discouraging it's deliberate use to avoid the consequences of my decisions.

Not sure whether applying this rule to open only would work, but if it could I guess I'd be okay with it. I'd prefer the simplicity of a one rule for all approach though. Habitually CLing against NPCs is pretty lame IMO.

 

[Riverside]

No - the opposite is true. FD themselves disconnect you from the original session when you log in to it again. They cannot count it as an ungraceful exit because FD demand it happens due to account protections. They disconnect the player from the game, not the other way around.

Okay but if there are no legitimate reasons for doing so, the same rule can still be applied I think?

 

[concentric]

No offence but if I had to wait an hour every time I get disconnected I'd stop playing ED altogether.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

From the feedback over the last day or so it seems clear that there are lots of things in the game that some people consider to be exploits, but one that stands out as fairly universally accepted to be a 'cheat' is Combat Logging.

There are lots of innocent reasons why a client may disconnect ungracefully, and unlike the recent Engineers cheat it's much harder to determine whether a CLogger did so deliberately or not.

I'd like to propose a simple 1hr ban from the game following any disconnect, no matter what the reason.


If a client is having connection difficulties, waiting a while before trying to reconnect is probably a good idea anyway, if they are genuinely trying to diagnose why the game crashed or their internet connection dropped, pinging the server & other stuff can be done in this time anyway.

If the client CLogs to avoid being ganked the gankers 'win' by preventing the CLogger from reaching the station (for an hour) etc, adding something to the gameplay rather than simply avoiding it.

If the client CLogs to avoid punishment (eg spawncamper being attacked by the AA) then the newbies have been given some breathing space where the ganker cannot simply relog & carry on popping sidewinders.


Would this be a reasonable compromise all round?

No.

My internet isn't the most reliable. There is nothing I can do about it either.
If it seems to be functioning normally, I'll play in Open, as it's my preferred mode, otherwise, I stick to solo or Mobius.

If I got a 1hr ban each time I lost internet, I'd probably not ever be able to play the game again. Lol

There's two other, more "graceful" ways to fix it.

1) Simple Mode; anyone Combat Logging illegally, is forced in to Solo the next time they log in for 1 hour. Legally logging out will not fix it. Each time you illegally combat log, your timer is doubled.

Or 2) Sadistic Mode; anyone illegally combat logging, is unable to rejoin any other mode except the one they was in, for 1 hour. You can not relog in to fix it either. If you combat log on someone in PvP, all they have to do is hang around until you come back.

I had a more detailed suggestion posted, but I can't be bothered to find it.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead