Confession of a shameless Mode Switcher...

[Ziggy Stardust]

I've NEVER stated mode switching was intended in the manner it's being used, but it's also not hacking the game, not cheating the system by making it give you an item for super low cost against the program code, or other such endeavors.

Hi!

I think a lot of the miscommunication is down to attaching judgement to the term exploit. It is experienced as a negative term, but the term exploit doesn't carry that negative connotation. It's merely descriptive. Almost all games have exploits. The majority of those exploits are benign, and are usually more efficient ways to deal with the game mechanisms. Sometimes the exploit is even embraced by the developers and support is added to the game. So you're right, it's not hacking the game, it's not cheating.

When you're in Open and have been trying to gain docking permission to an outpost for 5 minutes, give up, switch to solo, dock and switch back to Open, that's perfectly fine. But it is an exploit. If you made use of the engineering cheat where you could do G5 rolls for G1 materials because of a bug in the interface, that's also an exploit. But that one goes against the rule: G5 mats for G5 modules. Then it's an exploit, but it is also cheating.

Exploit is not the same as cheat or hack.

 

[Jockey79]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

While I realise Wiki isn't the Bible this is a good explanation, other Google searches back that up, other developer posts and games back that up, my years in gaming back hat up.

Chck the results when you narrow your search to gaming exploits, computer game exploits and the like as opposed to the general term that references exploitation of resources etc.

Even your own link backs up what I said. It puts the clause that it is to the players advantage - and as we can all do it, so who has an advantage? And as FD was aware of it BEFORE release, who said it's unintended?

Sorry, but you are well out of your depth here. FD have no issue with anyone mode switching for any reason (it is part of the game design) and they are the final say on Elite Dangerous rules, not you or anyone else who doesn't like it.

 

[Jockey79]

Incorrect.

The second definition listed is the one generally referred to when talking about exploits in this context. Exploiting a situation allowed by bug or other unintended feature for one's benefit.

I refer you back to the word "unfair" which you've conveniently missed out (leaving words out to change the definition is not cool, it's downright dirty) - it cannot be unfair when we can all do it and it's approved by the people who own the software. So that section is not applicable.

It's patently obvious that our ability as players to mode switch is not something that our CMDR's or the Elite setting can be aware of in an in-game context. ......

And of into cloud oo land, we go then.

There are a lot of "in game" things that are not right, like how we can respawn half way across the galaxy if our ship blows up at Sag A* - just to name one.
Leave the fantasy land where it belongs please, in the game.

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

Have fun never getting your vette/cutter if you don't mode switch.
Meanwhile, I'm currently outfitting mine and loving it.

 

[Theodrid]

Even your own link backs up what I said. It puts the clause that it is to the players advantage - and as we can all do it, so who has an advantage? And as FD was aware of it BEFORE release, who said it's unintended?

Sorry, but you are well out of your depth here. FD have no issue with anyone mode switching for any reason (it is part of the game design) and they are the final say on Elite Dangerous rules, not you or anyone else who doesn't like it.

'Out of my depth'? - I expect better than that from you tbh Jockey, and no, my link clearly suggests unintended behaviours and the like which is exactly my point.

And guess what, Frontier don't get to redefine what exploits are either, be that because they can't or won't fix it, it's popularity of any other excuse.

Everyone could have done the engineering exploit, does that mean it wasn't one? Everyone could have done the module resale exploit, does that mean it wasn't one? Also, because we all had the ability to do these things that, in your book excludes unfairness, do I have that right and that is indeed your opinion?

 

[Morbad]

There are a lot of "in game" things that are not right, like how we can respawn half way across the galaxy if our ship blows up at Sag A* - just to name one.

This has nothing to do with in-game things 'not being right' and your analogy is flawed.

An escape pod that can instantly jump back to one's point of origin is a major case of handwavium, but it absolutely has in game context and is depicted as such. There are tons of fantasy elements in game, but the ones that are intentional and placed in appropriate contexts are not bugs or exploits.

Mode switching is pure metagaming. There is no context for it within the setting depicted in game and it's purpose is not to manipulate the mission boards. It's also completely avoidable.

Leave the fantasy land where it belongs please, in the game.

Segregation of reality and fantasy reality is precisely my motivation for avoiding these exploits.

Have fun never getting your vette/cutter if you don't mode switch.
Meanwhile, I'm currently outfitting mine and loving it.

Never mode switched to manipulate mission boards. Have had both ships, but would not consider not having them justification to abuse mode switching to get them.

 

[Jockey79]

Have fun never getting your vette/cutter if you don't mode switch.
Meanwhile, I'm currently outfitting mine and loving it.

Well, the community does keep telling new players it's a marathon, not dash.

Didn't I see a post around here the other day that after 2 and a half years (no mode switching) someone wasn't even half way to a big ship - yet with it, it can take as little as 15 hours.

 

[Aashenfox]

I refer you back to the word "unfair" which you've conveniently missed out (leaving words out to change the definition is not cool, it's downright dirty) - it cannot be unfair when we can all do it and it's approved by the people who own the software. So that section is not applicable.



And of into cloud oo land, we go then.

There are a lot of "in game" things that are not right, like how we can respawn half way across the galaxy if our ship blows up at Sag A* - just to name one.
Leave the fantasy land where it belongs please, in the game.

This is not cloud oo land if that's what you meant to say (apologies, I now see that's a product of the profanity filter, I wonder why? lol). Let me try to to put it to you another way, as I read the other posts... You cannot go to a cash machine in reality, get your money out, log out of 'life 2.1', log back in again, and repeat the transaction, retaining the cash you made on each occasion(it's a bad analogy, I know, I don't have much thinking time right now, but you get the idea). The fact that you CAN do this in Elite (effectively), is down to a lack of programming to avoid it. This is something the devs have acknowledged, without admitting that it was 'not intended' and then said 'we don't mind if you do this', without saying that it was 'intended'.

I believe that logic dictates that we see this as 'aaaa, Fdev don't mind us using this exploit, as at the end of the day, they know the mission system needs overhauling and allowing people to use this workaround keeps them off our backs'. It's just logical, call me Spock if you like. Whether you call it an exploit or a reasonable workaround to a valid problem, it has no basis in canon, it is 'not feasible', 'not explainable using reasonable game mechanics' and in my opinion, absence of admission or not, 'not intended by the devs'.

Like I say, the semantics of what you call it are irrelevant, the fact that the mission boards will be overhauled and this issue 'fixed' is the ultimate proof. In the meantime, I don't have an issue with people exploiting this coding oversight, because the missions can be a bit sparse (though I haven't felt a need as I have a very good way of gaining rep to which this exploit makes little to no difference, as explained earlier) but I do have a problem with them saying it's 'consummate with the elite universe', magic escape pods and suicidal crew aside, etc, as those are also things that need to be addressed 'at some point'. Just be happy that they left this workaround in place for you to abuse as much as you like.

If you ranked all the things that aren't quite 'right' about Elite, things that just don't make sense, and then graded based on severity of immersion breaking, this item would be top of the list by a factor of 10,000, as it looks like an exploit, smells like an exploit and quacks like an exploit.

 

[Jockey79]

'Out of my depth'? - I expect better than that from you tbh Jockey, and no, my link clearly suggests unintended behaviours and the like which is exactly my point.

From your link;

"by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]"

What advantage?
From who?

You cannot remove a clause from a definition and pretend it's still the same thing.

It may be stupid, it may be immersion breaking, it may even be lame - but it is not an exploit.

And guess what, Frontier don't get to redefine what exploits are either, be that because they can't or won't fix it, it's popularity of any other excuse.

Frontier is not redefining anything. They make the game, they set the rules.

Everyone could have done the engineering exploit, does that mean it wasn't one? Everyone could have done the module resale exploit, does that mean it wasn't one? Also, because we all had the ability to do these things that, in your book excludes unfairness, do I have that right and that is indeed your opinion?

Actually no not "everyone" could have done the engineering exploits - because for the most part it was kept quiet by those doing it. Hence FD taking action with those who were doing it. I certainly didn't know about it until after it was fixed, and I still don't know how it was done. I also don't know where to go looking for actual exploits because I don't have any interest in them.

Unlike that poor example of yours, EVERYONE does know about mode switching because it is part of the game - an ADVERTISED part. Not a hush don't let FD know the situation part of the game.

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

Well, the community does keep telling new players it's a marathon, not dash.

Didn't I see a post around here the other day that after 2 and a half years (no mode switching) someone wasn't even half way to a big ship - yet with it, it can take as little as 15 hours.

Yeah, I won't last 2 ½ years playing Elite. So I'm getting as much as I can out of it, while I can before I head off to greener pastures
It took me like 4, or 5 weeks of mode switching, I wish it was 15 hours, lol.

 

[Theodrid]

snip

Jockey,

The engineering exploit involved shenanigans at the opportune moment to allow for the ability to use G1 mats for G5 rolls, this was an unintended behaviour classed by Frontier as an exploit and fixed.

The module resale exploit involving founders was an unintended behaviour, exploit, and was fixed by Frontier.

The ability to stack missions via mode hopping is quite obviously, as the two above are, an unintended behaviour and therefore SHOULD fall into the same category, i.e, exploit.

Now, please explain to me beyond ones personal idea of severity what the difference is if they are all unintended?

Also, re my link, the first sentence is king to me, it doesn't have to be an advantage over others necessarily, just to gain one, even if it is purely for one's own benefit.

 

[Aashenfox]

Yeah, I won't last 2 ½ years playing Elite. So I'm getting as much as I can out of it, while I can before I head off to greener pastures

You'll be back. They always come back.

 

[Jockey79]

This is not cloud oo land if that's what you meant to say (apologies, I now see that's a product of the profanity filter, I wonder why? lol). Let me try to to put it to you another way, as I read the other posts... You cannot go to a cash machine in reality, get your money out, log out of 'life 2.1', log back in again, and repeat the transaction, retaining the cash you made on each occasion(it's a bad analogy, I know, I don't have much thinking time right now, but you get the idea). The fact that you CAN do this in Elite (effectively), is down to a lack of programming to avoid it. This is something the devs have acknowledged, without admitting that it was 'not intended' and then said 'we don't mind if you do this', without saying that it was 'intended'.......

You know what else you cannot do in real life;

You cannot get out of bed, go stab 20 people and then blow yourself up. Get out of bed again AFTERWARDS and go shopping while the police ignore the fact 10 minutes earlier you were killing people and then killed yourself.

Can we leave the stupid "real life" analogies now?
We are talking about a game, with a purpose built mechanic that is being used in an unintended way (yes it is unintended) - but as it gives no advantage to anyone, due to us all being able to do it and an "exploit" requires there to be an advantage over others - it is not an Exploit.

So unless FD decides they don't like it anymore - it is not an exploit.
Until then, it's down to each player to decide for themselves if they want to constantly log in/out.
I personally don't find that a useful use of my time. So I don't do it. (I have done it, it bores me, so I refuse to do it now)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What advantage?
From who?

An advantage does not have to be opposed to other players, it has to be an advantage as opposed to not using the exploit. All players can gain an advantage and it's still an advantage.

The advantage of mode switching to refresh the mission board is that you can take more missions than you would be able without it.

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

Jockey,

The engineering exploit involved an exit to menu at the opportune moment to allow for the ability to use G1 mats for G5 rolls, this was an unintended behaviour classed by Frontier as an exploit and fixed.

That's not how it worked.
You just selected "view engineers" on your right panel, at the right time, while it was rolling.

 

[Theodrid]

That's not how it worked.

That was my understanding, (clearly I'm not guilty!), could you elaborate?

Ah, saw your edit, thanks, point stands though regarding mats and unintended behaviours, will edit accordingly.

 

[Aashenfox]

You know what else you cannot do in real life;

You cannot get out of bed, go stab 20 people and then blow yourself up. Get out of bed again AFTERWARDS and go shopping while the police ignore the fact 10 minutes earlier you were killing people and then killed yourself.

Can we leave the stupid "real life" analogies now?
We are talking about a game, with a purpose built mechanic that is being used in an unintended way (yes it is unintended) - but as it gives no advantage to anyone, due to us all being able to do it and an "exploit" requires there to be an advantage over others - it is not an Exploit.

So unless FD decides they don't like it anymore - it is not an exploit.
Until then, it's down to each player to decide for themselves if they want to constantly log in/out.
I personally don't find that a useful use of my time. So I don't do it. (I have done it, it bores me, so I refuse to do it now)

lol, whut? whoever said it needs to match life in EVERY way!? I just gave you an example of an analogy of the exploit (a bad one I admit, but it has nothing to do with suggesting that Elite should perfectly match reality, lol, lol, lol, lol, hang on a sec, let me quickly change the year to 33xx and see if Elite is accurate, rofl. Did you really think I meant that? I find that hilarious. Way to totally misunderstand and take it somewhere else entirely (I bet you win a lot of arguments against thick people like that) .

There's no need to get so flustered, it's just a chat on a forum, I didn't attack you, calm down. It's an exploit and it's not intended, it will one day be fixed. That's it. Don't see what you're having problems with, but thankfully, it doesn't matter a jot to me.

 

[Jockey79]

Jockey,

The engineering exploit involved an exit to menu at the opportune moment to allow for the ability to use G1 mats for G5 rolls, this was an unintended behaviour classed by Frontier as an exploit and fixed.

Which not everyone knew about;

aka = unfair advantage for a few whom kept it quiet as best they could.

The module resale exploit involving founders was an unintended behaviour, exploit, and was fixed by Frontier.

Not everyone has access to founders;

aka = unfair advantage for those with founders access only

The ability to stack missions via mode hopping is .....

available to all;

aka = no advantage over other players and often given as advice on these forums to people who want to rank up.

Again, you are trying to redefine what the word means while claiming that is what others are doing.
An "exploit" requires someone to gain an unfair advantage over someone else. No one has an unfair advantage.

 

[Cpt Spaulding]

That was my understanding, (clearly I'm not guilty!), could you elaborate?

I saw the video here on the forum. edited my previous post.

 

[Morbad]

but as it gives no advantage to anyone, due to us all being able to do it and an "exploit" requires there to be an advantage over others - it is not an Exploit.

Pretty much by definition, bug/unintended 'feature' exploits can be abused without the need for any additional tools but the game itself.

Any exploit that has ever existed, even ones they've punished, were available to everyone. The advantage went to those who were willing to abuse them.

So unless FD decides they don't like it anymore - it is not an exploit.

FDev has never liked it, has repeatedly said that it's not intended behavior, and has been trying to remove it without breaking other aspects of the game.

They've said they won't punish it, and they don't, but that's not the same thing as liking it.