Constructing a specific Economy

[Wartface]

The Industrial T1 also generates a strong link (though not weak links), doesn't it?

(That's the more major concern in this position - Extraction doesn't mess with Refinery exports very much in the first place, other than Explosives)


It's the ratio rather than the difference which matters here, though.
1.6 Refinery + 0.4 Industrial is better than 2.0 Refinery + 0.8 Industrial if what you want is refinery exports.

Honestly, i'm not sure just yet on how Ports on the same body feed each other. In theory, I'd wager you're correct and it gets treated as a Strong Link (probably at +0.8) of the System Economy Influence. Though i've not seen it to prove/disprove.

I would expect a Colony port to not exert any external economy influence; meaning, Colony ports are effected but do not effect. Again, I haven't seen to prove/disprove.

The ratio versus difference is definitely beyond my knowledge. I'll have to do some testing; however i'm finding it very hard with the flux of population growth also effecting commodity production. Would love a control environment!

o7

 

[Wartface]

Thank you

Too bad, a stupid mistake at the very start of all this. Oh well, I will move on and will be back with the Panther to try to salvage what I can.

If it makes you feel any better, most of us are in the same position.

o7

 

[tomalus]

as long as you get steel/alum/titan its not a wasted effort

 

[Tifu]

The ratio versus difference is definitely beyond my knowledge. I'll have to do some testing; however i'm finding it very hard with the flux of population growth also effecting commodity production. Would love a control environment!

I have a primary commercial outpost (now industrial) at COL 285 SECTOR FO-E B26-4, there's nothing else in the system. If you think it's a good control environment , just let me know and I'll initiate a construction site on whichever planet/moon you want.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I would expect a Colony port to not exert any external economy influence; meaning, Colony ports are effected but do not effect. Again, I haven't seen to prove/disprove.

This seems not to be the case - Colony ports create a strong link of whatever (including hybrid) their economy type is. So you can get some apparent double-counting effects if you have a surface port (attracting weak links + planetary) strong linking up to the orbital port (also attracting weak links + planetary)

Oddly, though it is as-documented, intrinsic-economy ports seem to generate strong links but not weak links, in others' reporting: I need to finish my current build to confirm that.

The ratio versus difference is definitely beyond my knowledge. I'll have to do some testing; however i'm finding it very hard with the flux of population growth also effecting commodity production. Would love a control environment!

Most of my initial work on this was done years ago with the economies around Colonia, which had two big advantages:
- they're mostly single-type
- they're almost all known size/population

Verifying that colonisation ones worked the same way was then a lot easier.
(Starting with colonisation economies and then trying to figure it out, that'd be a lot tougher!)

 

[Kzak]

I'm making a surface T1 industrial port on an ice world, the only other thing in the system is the primary orbital (T1 Science outpost). Will see if this gets me Muon Imagers or if the T1 science outpost's 0.05 influence is enough to eat those too.

 

[Wartface]

I have a primary commercial outpost (now industrial) at COL 285 SECTOR FO-E B26-4, there's nothing else in the system. If you think it's a good control environment , just let me know and I'll initiate a construction site on whichever planet/moon you want.

Oh nice!

Is there a spare orbital slot on the same body you have the existing port?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm making a surface T1 industrial port on an ice world, the only other thing in the system is the primary orbital (T1 Science outpost). Will see if this gets me Muon Imagers or if the T1 science outpost's 0.05 influence is enough to eat those too.

Should be fine, since HT also produces rather than consumes muon imagers.

(You might not even get a weak link at all in this case, which would be interesting to know)

 

[Tifu]

Oh nice!

Is there a spare orbital slot on the same body you have the existing port?

I think at least two orbital slots. No surface slots available on the planet though. Can set it up in about two hours or so since the laptop I'm using is currently in use

 

[James Razor]

This sounds as bad as I did fear >_<

I am currently trying to flip an Orbis to Agri that I had started before the last patch around an Icy Moon. It has now a Space Farm in Orbit Slot 1 (Orbis being Slot 0) and 2 Large Agri Settlements (Tier 2) on the Ground.

The last Agri Settlement was finished last night (CEST) and the Port itself is 'under deployment', but I fear that those settlements and the Space Farm will not be able to overcome the Planetary Influence, which also has Water Magma Volcanism.

At the moment, the port is 'Industrial' with a lot of mixed goods and the only Agri stuff is Coffee and Fish. And I fear this will stay this way.

Guess I need to find another name for the Port now....

 

[Plut0nia]

Plugging in the numbers you've provided (and i'm taking them on face value), because I was worried that i'd got something wrong in my calculations.

The planet you've built on must have Geologicals and Volcanism. Also, there must be Pristine/Major Reserves in the System. Before building any other facilities would give the Port:

2.80 Extraction​

1.40 Industrial​

The total stats for your port I can calculate and agree with what you're saying, apart from the Extraction figure (I'm calculating 4.40 rather than 5.20). I'd be very grateful if you could double check the numbers and confirm the Geologicals, Volcanism and System Reserves.

o7

Sorry, I was looking at the other planet. So, mine has minor silicate vapor geysers. So I guess that's where the industrial influence comes from. But why does a Weak grade 1 link with 145% influence override a Strong link of 205%? The mere presence of geysers on the planet makes them throw away all of the commodities that industry would consume if the planet had any?

 

[Wartface]

Sorry, I was looking at the other planet. So, mine has minor silicate vapor geysers. So I guess that's where the industrial influence comes from. But why does a Weak grade 1 link with 145% influence override a Strong link of 205%? The mere presence of geysers on the planet makes them throw away all of the commodities that industry would consume if the planet had any?

I really need the information requested.

Does the planet have Geologicals?
Does the system have Pristine/Major Reserves?

Separately, the Weak Industrial Link is only providing 0.05 value. You can honestly forget that this is a factor because it's so minor.

 

[Tifu]

This sounds as bad as I did fear >_<

I am currently trying to flip an Orbis to Agri that I had started before the last patch around an Icy Moon. It has now a Space Farm in Orbit Slot 1 (Orbis being Slot 0) and 2 Large Agri Settlements (Tier 2) on the Ground.

Just wait till the two agri settlements come into play before renaming. I'm in a somewhat similar situation though my icy moon doesn't have volcanism but does have biosignals. Not crazy enough to build an Orbis in orbit though, maybe just a commercial outpost for that moon.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This sounds as bad as I did fear

Agricultural is now (by far) the hardest economy to get in a colony
- no planet type produces pure Agricultural
- all other economy types consume almost all agricultural exports (Industrial is even worse)
- a lot of Agricultural exports are demand-favoured

So the largest single-type Agricultural economy you can get is an Odyssey settlement, which only produces a small amount of a random selection of commodities.

But why does a Weak grade 1 link with 145% influence override a Strong link of 205%? The mere presence of geysers on the planet makes them throw away all of the commodities that industry would consume if the planet had any?

It's a lot more complicated than "one is bigger than the other".

Steel production, for example, varies between 14 and 58 tonnes per unit of economy size, while consumption varies between 3 and 58 tonnes (at least: these ranges may be wider)
So if you've got 145 consumption and 205 production, it's still possible for the consumption to end up higher, if it's closer to 58t/unit and production is closer to 14t/unit. Slightly unlucky, but can definitely happen.

And Steel is one of the most favourable metals for production. Copper is between 87 and 148 production and between 34 and 348 consumption, so even with average luck you might not see any.

Every commodity has its own set of ranges on both the production and consumption side, making some of them very resilient and likely to appear even from a minority component of the station markets, and some of them very fragile and likely to be wiped out on the export side by even minority components.
(Of course, if what you want is somewhere to sell goods, your perspective is reversed on what these numbers mean)

Separately, the Weak Industrial Link is only providing 0.05 value. You can honestly forget that this is a factor because it's so minor.

Compared with the 1.4 from the planet in this scenario, yes - but in a situation where the planet wasn't giving Industrial influence, 0.05 from a weak link can still mess up some Refinery exports (assuming 1.0 refinery). Beryllium, Semiconductors and Insulating Membrane would be particularly "at risk" and you might lose a couple of other metals too.

There are quite a few commodities which have the sort of 10:1 or 20:1 consumptionroduction ratios where even a few weak links can mess with them.

 

[Tifu]

I think at least two orbital slots. No surface slots available on the planet though. Can set it up in about two hours or so since the laptop I'm using is currently in use

@Wartface got hold of the laptop for a few minutes. What kind of orbital station construction should I initiate?

 

[Plut0nia]

It's a lot more complicated than "one is bigger than the other".

Steel production, for example, varies between 14 and 58 tonnes per unit of economy size, while consumption varies between 3 and 58 tonnes (at least: these ranges may be wider)
So if you've got 145 consumption and 205 production, it's still possible for the consumption to end up higher, if it's closer to 58t/unit and production is closer to 14t/unit. Slightly unlucky, but can definitely happen.

And Steel is one of the most favourable metals for production. Copper is between 87 and 148 production and between 34 and 348 consumption, so even with average luck you might not see any.

Every commodity has its own set of ranges on both the production and consumption side, making some of them very resilient and likely to appear even from a minority component of the station markets, and some of them very fragile and likely to be wiped out on the export side by even minority components.
(Of course, if what you want is somewhere to sell goods, your perspective is reversed on what these numbers mean)

So am I to assume that since all of the other refinery-suitable worls are also HMC with volcanism, no matter how many refinery ports I build and even if I completely avoid putting any industry into the system, the supply of ceramics and semiconductors from all those refineries will never exceed the sacrificial demands of the volcanoes?

 

[Plut0nia]

I really need the information requested.

Does the planet have Geologicals?
Does the system have Pristine/Major Reserves?

Separately, the Weak Industrial Link is only providing 0.05 value. You can honestly forget that this is a factor because it's so minor.

The planet only has volcanism. The system has one icy ring with pristine reserves.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

So am I to assume that since all of the other refinery-suitable worls are also HMC with volcanism, no matter how many refinery ports I build and even if I completely avoid putting any industry into the system, the supply of ceramics and semiconductors from all those refineries will never exceed the sacrificial demands of the volcanoes?

That looks likely, I think.

The old economy rules let you do more-or-less what you liked provided that you kept to one economy per planet. Of course, this led to lots of complaints from players who'd set up no economies per planet (because they either hadn't read the documentation at all, or didn't have the baseline level of understanding of Elite's economy to know what "Colony economy" meant).

The new rules very much require, if you want particular low-prod/high-cons exports:
- make an economy which fits well with the underlying planet
- either stick to one economy type for the entire system or build "decoy" stations to trap the resulting weak links
- many planets are intrinsically hybrid economies and should be avoided / left for non-market infrastructure

Ultimately I wouldn't assume that the new rules are going to remain as they are, so building to them for non-experimental purposes might still be a mistake: "my market doesn't produce anything coherent" is a quieter complaint than "my market doesn't produce anything at all" but I wouldn't commit to a system at all except as experiment/practice until Frontier says that the economy rules are finalised / Beta is over.

 

[Wartface]

@Wartface got hold of the laptop for a few minutes. What kind of orbital station construction should I initiate?

I'm rapidly trying to work out a good answer; I'd love them all, honestly, with all the data inbetween. But that's not feasible (or kind!). @Ian Doncaster Do you have a view on this potential control environment? You may need to look at Tifu's previous comments.

o7

 

[James Razor]

Just wait till the two agri settlements come into play before renaming. I'm in a somewhat similar situation though my icy moon doesn't have volcanism but does have biosignals. Not crazy enough to build an Orbis in orbit though, maybe just a commercial outpost for that moon.

As said, I started this project under the old rules before the patch and before the new system was rolled out.
I had stopped the construction when 'The Error' happened, as it was more or less clear that if they go through with the economy influence from the Planets, I will be screwed hard, but I was at 64% at this point already.

After the patch, I decided to finish the project as planned, simply also to see how it plays out and as a warning to others in the worst case.
I will wait and see how this plays out over the week and when the Port hopefully comes fully online on Thursday.

WTB Towtruck or Engine Upgrade to move that thing btw.....