Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[Darkfyre99]

This is a key point of difference between those who like the FSS and those who aren't so keen.

If searching for specific body types is what makes them interesting, then the waveform gives you what you want.
If that isn't what you find interesting, then you need to scan before you can find out if there is anything that warrants further investigation.

This is where I disagree. With the exception of certain types of rare unicorns, you can deduce the presence of most interesting things by using the FSS, without resolving a single body. There will be the rare false-positive, but IMO discovering a false-positive can be just as interesting, because it means that it's a rare orbital alignment.

 

[Darkfyre99]

One honk didn't explore the system - it just drew you a map. To explore the system you had to actually fly your spaceship around it.

And that probably sums up the main difference between pro-ADS and anti-ADS. As far as I'm concerned, the fun part of exploring is creating the map in the first place. When all we had was the ADS, the ADS explored the system for me, so the only reason to fly out to any body was credits (which I didn't need), "discovered by tags" (which I don't care about), or trivial minutia (which aren't worth the effort to get). I couldn't even explore via parallax, since in order to actually add a body to the map required you to honk, which even the BDS would reveal large parts of the system.

 

[Winterwalker]

This is where I disagree. With the exception of certain types of rare unicorns, you can deduce the presence of most interesting things by using the FSS, without resolving a single body. There will be the rare false-positive, but IMO discovering a false-positive can be just as interesting, because it means that it's a rare orbital alignment.

This I very much agree with. I have noticed very many more interesting things with orbits etc. since the FSS was introduced.

It is the complete reverse for at least some of us because the FSS/DSS is that awful.

A level of streamlining, in the FSS screen, would be desirable but you've almost persuaded me to ask FDev to leave it alone because it's not that awful (it just needs some streamlining).

I think also you may be a lazy explorer who wants the discovery tag and the cash but doesn't want to scan for it, spoiled by the ADS which suited quick fire cherry pick exploration better? The game has moved on, large swathes of the galaxy have now been visited, mapped is the new discovered and surface features the new discoveries.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It is the complete reverse for at least some of us because the FSS/DSS is that awful.

It's perfectly fine. You just don't like it. Which is fine by the way, perfectly allowable.

 

[lenna]

A level of streamlining, in the FSS screen, would be desirable but you've almost persuaded me to ask FDev to leave it alone because it's not that awful (it just needs some streamlining).

The FSS implementation is terrible and no amount of "streamlining" will fix the fundamental issues there are with it. IMO whoever designed the concept should be either given appropriate retraining or barred from designing game mechanics in the future.

The FSS could do with a complete rework and FD should at-least get rid of the Analysis/Combat mode "not functional in this mode" messages if not do away with the Analysis/Combat mode idea completely. It would have been better to have added non-specific "alternate-mode" mapping than split the controls into analysis and combat modes.

I think also you may be a lazy explorer who wants the discovery tag

Think again... the discovery tag was ONLY granted to those that actually flew to each body and proximity scanned them, the ADS just provided the positions of the bodies and that was it (no discovery tag awarded and the credits were no different to the initial FSS honk now). Your claims are the type of bunk that the anti-honk crowd have been pushing for years. If you have done any exploring prior to 3.3 you should already know that the ADS button push was only the start of the discovery process, not the beginning and end of it.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I think possibly - what stopped FDev doing this - is that instinctively if ship is at throttle > 0, then the FSS screen would need to be dynamic to match your changing ship position. I think too though, that there is a pretty good case for not worrying about that and just have the FSS operate off a snapshot (add shutter sound) from where you were when you fired it up, even though that's no longer your position.

The FSS screen is dynamic. Watch what happens when you use the FSS while still moving at multiples of C, thanks to using a quirk of Witchspace physics:

Having done something like this quite a few times (usually without colliding with a planet ), there's really nothing preventing us from using the FSS while on the move. It's difficult, yes, but there's nothing in the game engine that's preventing us from using doing so. It's a wholy artifical restriction on the part of Frontier.

 

[Winterwalker]

Think again... the discovery tag was ONLY granted to those that actually flew to each body and proximity scanned them

.. that were identified in one click.

How long did it take you to learn what each planet type looks like in SysMap, 1 minute? Now if you're searching for earthlikes, set tuning to range and resolve those only.

Where the FSS view streamline would be for me, is that you would always have an indicator arrow if you're tuned to a tuned signal no matter which way FSS is pointing. Then you don't need to search but it's a scan, follow the arrow.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The FSS screen is dynamic. Watch what happens when you use the FSS while still moving at multiples of C, thanks to using a quirk of Witchspace physics:

Having done something like this quite a few times (usually without colliding with a planet ), there's really nothing preventing us from using the FSS while on the move. It's difficult, yes, but there's nothing in the game engine that's preventing us from using doing so. It's a wholy artifical restriction on the part of Frontier.

Since all I actually want from the FSS is the spectrum it's particularly frustrating to me that I can't use it on the move. FDev should either remove the restriction or allow the spectrum to be shown on the bottom panel.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That is also a small issue with the FSS. Becoming this ethereal form which does not collide with any part of the ship.
I don't use VR but i figure it must be rather awkward if not scary experience, floating in nothingness to search for signals.
Maybe making it that the "scanner" does not collide with the ship and has perfect spherical movement range is dictated as a means of displaying the ship's gathered data? As in we are not the "telescope" itself but rather browsing gathered data? Not sure, i like to think of it as such. That way i feel less detached from the world when playing.
Part of why i liked the previous system better is because i would do everything from the safe confines of my cockpit without being teleported to this FSS spectral realm.

Weirdly, I actually find it kind of pleasant. It's the same kind of feeling I get with the galaxy map in VR. The system map, OTOH, is just unpleasant to use.

 

[lenna]

.. that were identified in one click. How long did it take you to learn what each planjet type looks like, 1 minute? Now if you're searching for earthlikes, set tuning to range, and search those only. Where the streamline would be, for me, is that you would always have an indicator arrow if you're tuned to a tuned signal no matter which way FSS is pointing. Then you don't need to search, but it's a scan, follow the arrow.

If your complaint about the ADS/DSS solution is cherry picking (something I never engaged in by the way) then the FSS/DSS is WORSE in that regard - ELWs/WWs are by comparison given to cherry pickers effectively for free.

 

[Winterwalker]

If your complaint about the ADS/DSS solution is cherry picking (something I never engaged in by the way) then the FSS/DSS is WORSE in that regard - ELWs/WWs are by comparison given to cherry pickers effectively for free.

Which is why I make the point that discovery tag is old news. Mapping and surface features are where exploration has moved on to.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The spectrum bar being populated with discrete signals means it should be digital, not analog. Much scrolling along it for no good reason.

The list of assigned keys along the bottom should be hideable.

The main screen can't make up it's mind whether it wants to allow roll or not. (Hint: It should).

The vertical cascade effect seems to be trying to pretend it's a radar screen, but it isn't.

Messages are invasive and interfere with operation.

That'll do for starters.

I like the FSS, and aside from this:

"The spectrum bar being populated with discrete signals means it should be digital, not analog. Much scrolling along it for no good reason."

I agree with everything you wrote.

The reason why I prefer analog to digital is that it lets me tune into a wide band of signals, which lets me get a quick overview of system's configuration and bodies without undue "tuning and zooming." This in turn lets me decide if a system is worth a quick look via the FSS, or is complex enough to be interesting to explore it by flying through it.

 

[lenna]

Which is why I make the point that discovery tag is old news. Mapping and surface features are where exploration has moved on to.

Which only emphasises the major of a mess FD have made of exploration with 3.3.

1. Codex for existing CMDRs missing swathes of discovery information already reported prior to 3.3 for CMDRs that already visited and scanned places (local body scans or otherwise) - I have Elite in exploration, have several first discoveries under my belt pre-3.3 yet a near empty Codex.
2. Pointless Mini-games added that add user interaction for the sake of it - poorly thought out, and badly implemented overall
3. Various other irritating ship control changes which seem to have not been properly thought through.

The segregation of mapping and discovery is arguably a major mistake on the part of FD, especially given the other issues they have created. The introduction of the FSS/DSS mechanics has generated more problems than it supposedly solved (not that I think there was anything wrong with the ADS/DSS in the first place that could justify the removal of the pre-3.3 mechanics).

 

[Old Duck]

And that probably sums up the main difference between pro-ADS and anti-ADS. As far as I'm concerned, the fun part of exploring is creating the map in the first place.

One of the things I'm enjoying in Red Dead Redemption 2 is that not only is the map shrouded by a "fog of war" that requires moving through a territory to reveal the map, but you also can reveal "hot spots" like good fishing holes, various animal herds, patches of valuable plants, etc. This can be done either by exploring these places directly (on horse or foot), but also sometimes these spots are marked on the map by using your binoculars to spot things like animals. Thankfully there is no 'reveal all' shout (aka - 'honk') in RDR2.

Creating the detailed map is great fun IMO, be it in RDR2 or ED.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That’s what they all say, they all say “out of cockpit”. \o/
...Although, I am most definitely outside of my cockpit in VR during fss use. Literally floating in free space. I simply cannot image anything else. Even if I close my eyes and hum loudly. When I reopen them again I’m undeniably floating in space.

Flimley

I've always figured that it was the same as the galaxy map and the system map: it's a holographic display projected by your ship. While I'd prefer the option to have all these subscreens displayed on information panel to my right, so that I don't have to block out my view of while using them, it's not like I feel like I'm outside my cockpit, just in a form of Altered Reality.

 

[Rat Catcher]

If you can't tell the difference then you must be blind - blob-hunt/space-golf (FSS/DSS) is mini-game hell lacking any true sense of immersion, the experience is jarring ...

In your opinion...

Others can, and do, hold the complete opposite opinion

 

[lenna]

In your opinion...

Others can, and do, hold the complete opposite opinion

In a product primarily about space flight it does not make any logical sense to have a mechanic like the FSS. It is pure mini-game that panders to the anti-ADS crowed too much and does not appropriately consider the concerns of those that enjoyed the gameplay facilitated by the ADS/DSS mechanics.

 

[Winterwalker]

Which only emphasises the major of a mess FD have made of exploration with 3.3.

1. Codex for existing CMDRs missing swathes of discovery information already reported prior to 3.3 for CMDRs that already visited and scanned places (local body scans or otherwise) - I have Elite in exploration, have several first discoveries under my belt pre-3.3 yet a near empty Codex.
2. Pointless Mini-games added that add user interaction for the sake of it - poorly thought out, and badly implemented overall
3. Various other irritating ship control changes which seem to have not been properly thought through.

The segregation of mapping and discovery is arguably a major mistake on the part of FD, especially given the other issues they have created. The introduction of the FSS/DSS mechanics has generated more problems than it supposedly solved (not that I think there was anything wrong with the ADS/DSS in the first place).

Codex bugs are unfortunate, of course but aren't a comment on the FSS operation per se.

With respect you don't seem to acknowledge that ED is a game played by a community at various levels of expertise, generally due to how long ago they started a new Commander. All players must be catered to.

Firstly you have a 'mini-game' that gives exploring a similar level of sophistication to an activity like mining, that is some complexities but not over the top, an emulation. And secondly, as a new Cmdr you have to travel a fair distance from the bubble to get a first discovery tag but as the hard-core explorers are further out, first maps are closer to home. Achievement achieved a new explorer is born.

For Elite explorers, people have had it easy with ADS however while completing a system takes longer now it gives twice as many first tags (discover + map) and - as the mini game- slows you down somewhat, this prevents the whole galaxy being discovered + mapped before a player starting in 5 years time has even logged in. Elite explorers - for whom it's too much bother - are still entitled to explore smart.

 

[Rat Catcher]

In a product primarily about space flight it does not make any logical sense to have a mechanic like the FSS. It is pure mini-game that panders to the anti-ADS crowed too much and does not appropriately consider the concerns of those that enjoyed the ADS/DSS mechanics.

again - in your opinion
You (and I) have the right to continue to express our opinion multiple times, but those expressions will not constitute a fact, solely opinions

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Codex bugs are unfortunate, of course but (really a fact of life) aren't a comment on the FSS operation per se.

With respect you don't seem to acknowledge that ED is a game played by a community at various levels of expertise, generally due to how long ago they started a new Commander. All players must be catered to.

Firstly you have a 'mini-game' that gives exploring a similar level of sophistication to an activity like mining, that is some complexities but not over the top, an emulation. And secondly, as a new Cmdr you have to travel a fair distance from the bubble to get a first discovery tag but as the hard-core explorers are further out, first maps are closer to home. Achievement made.

For the harder core explorers, people have had it easy with ADS however while completing a system takes longer now it gives twice as many first tags (discover + map) and as - the mini game- slows you down somwehat, this prevents the whole galaxy being discovered + mapped before a player starting in 5 years time has even logged in.

There are 400,000,000,000 systems. It's going to take a lot more than 5 years for players to have visited the whole galaxy, even if they just jump and honk.

I've also not seen much evidence that people are mapping anything other than the high value bodies. Probably since it's slow, clunky and doesn't actually do anything other than reveal things to take selfies in front of.

On top of which, FDev stated that they created the FSS to make exploration quicker.